God and Worship

[sojourner]

I DID ASK!

Thank you SO MUCH! :rainbow1:

Sojourner just made my day!
:dan:
That word has left me stupified for so long--
and now I finally find out it's a really awesome one!

Can't wait to (re)wrap my mind around it...
"to become shape".
Wershape!

That is so great!

And all the "posture" conversation we've been having is actually
intrinsically relevent to the words etymology.

I know. I'm geeky in my own way. :flirt:

So, your "lying down and rising up" are postures of worship for you. That's great! The terminology for that is "sacramental universe." All of life is sacred, and points us toward God. I think you've hit the nail bang on the head(board) here.
You see God in the cloak of night. You worship the Lady that enfolds you in her arms. I really like that.

edit:
To Carlin:
This is what belief does. It provides a vehicle for our intuition that night time may have a deeper, intuitive meaning, beyond the physical applications of natural laws. Night can be more than "The part of the earth where we are has rotated away from the sun, so we're in a big shadow." Night can be a Lady. Night can be God enfolding us.
In this instance, the forces that created earth can be more than natural convenience. It can be Design. It can be Intelligence. It can be God.

 

[rojse]

No, primarily because of our own limitations of understanding. The shape of events in worship are symbols that move us, as we take different stances before God. If we've been paying attention to that movement, we find that we're in a whole different place when we finish, than we were in when we started.

We need to see it, smell it, feel it, taste it in ways that have meaning for us, if we are to understand the transformation that is taking place. Otherwise, we likely miss it, and the impact that it will have on us.

I'm sorry if I sound dense (at least it's better than making your own mind up beforehand, as quite a few people are doing now) but I don't really get what you are saying, Sojourner, and I really would like to.

From my understanding of our conversation, would a fair summation be that our opportunities to understand God limited because of our imperfect nature, even when God is... well, God? And we can "tune in" (for want of a better phrase) through worship?

 

[sojourner]

I'm sorry if I sound dense (at least it's better than making your own mind up beforehand, as quite a few people are doing now) but I don't really get what you are saying, Sojourner, and I really would like to.

From my understanding of our conversation, would a fair summation be that our opportunities to understand God limited because of our imperfect nature, even when God is... well, God? And we can "tune in" (for want of a better phrase) through worship?

Uh, yeah, that's pretty close. A better explanation might be that we have trouble
putting skin on our relationship with God. Worship does that. Not only do have trouble understanding God's nature -- we also have trouble understanding our own, and how we interrelate.

 

[cardero]

sojourner writes: In that sense, whenever we worship, we are entering into a process of God creating with us. In other words, worship should not seek to celebrate ourselves, but the God within us. Worship gets us away from ourselves -- from an egocentric perspective -- to a perspective of turning toward God.

This last part I feel could use more understanding from my theology. I believe that one of the reasons spiritual entities take on a physical existence is to broaden, challenge and focus our individuality. As humans we cannot get away from ourselves and as far as finding or turning towards GOD, I think I have made it clear that there is no penalty or loss if someone does not connect with or believe in GOD during this existence. I also feel that some people choose a physical incarnation for the express purpose to get away from GOD.

After reading your responses, I still have a few more questions and would be interested in your responses:

Who else do you believe is deserving of the worship that you speak of?

When do you think is an appropriate moment to worship God?

Where do you think is an appropriate place to worship God?

In your estimation, how much money should it cost to worship God?

 

[CarlinKnew]

No, it doesn't. People have intuitions that come from quite outside themselves, which inform them. The two are not closely related at all.

What outside sources are you talking about?

One example: We now know that the sky is not a moveable dome that separates earth from heaven. We also now understand that the sun gives off light -- and how it does that. None of that changes how we intuit the source of the these things.

You said, "Now we have a greater understanding of how God works in the world." Then you attempt to support that claim by citing examples of scientific discoveries about natural phenomena. That's a non sequitur: we were talking about how god works, not how the world works. It would've been correct to say, "Now we have a greater understanding of how the world works."

Belief does not require physical evidence. Why are you trying to hold spirituality to a criterion that does not inform it???

You said there was evidence. Now you're qualifying that statement by implying that the evidence might not be physical. Well, I've asked you about six times now, what is your supposed evidence?

Religion is an expression of culture. It gives voic e to truth -- not fact. There is a difference. For example, school children talk about George Washington's character in terms of chopping down a cherry tree. We know that no such thing really happened. But the story serves to tell a truth about his character.

That story is useful because we know that George Washington existed. We don't know if any god exists, so any "truth" about an apparently imaginary character is useless.

Another example that you all seem to harp on quite a bit. Santa Claus is not a "real person." But the myth serves to perpetuate a greater truth -- that love is unconditional -- that there is something special about those times when we gather with others to share good will. That is a truth that is not "fact," which is embodied by the culture in the figure of Santa Claus.

Fact is, there are more Christians in America than any other belief (or disbelief). Christianity is imbedded in our culture, and informs our culture. It is a widely -- (perhaps universally) -- accepted vehicle for they mythos that we intuit about how we understand truth.

This has nothing to do with "proving something false," or "proving something factual." It has to do with our intuition and how we perceive and voice truth.

In this case, the "popular" voice has reasoned that Christian spirituality is a valid means of expressing that intuition.

Exactly, we don't believe that Santa Claus is real. The myth is part of our culture and may be useful in some ways, just as Christianity may be useful in some ways even if the Christian god isn't real.

Not quite. Faith is, itself, evidentiary.

Not in the slightest. Faith that something is real/correct is not evidence that it is real/correct. Faith that the world is flat is not evidence that the world is flat.

Thankfully we do make spiritual progress despite the hindrance of empiricism.

Who makes spiritual progress, we as a species? How so?

But you, as an outsider, so to speak, don't get to define "our" religion any way you want, and then proceed to tell us that's the way it "really is," and then tell us we're all wrong and misled.

What do you care? Apparently, none of this really exists to you, anyway. If you spent more time pondering a belief system that works for you, instead of tilting at straw men, you might get a little further in your endeavors.

But you are arguing from a (basically) Biblical basis.

I'm not attempting to "define" your religion. You're referring to two points that I raised:

-God created the universe with humanity in mind
-One must repent in order to be allowed into heaven

Both of these points are beliefs that are held by many Christians.

I'm surprised that you even debate the first point. According to Christian mythology, humanity is god's most precious creation. We are supposedly created in his image, and he appears to pay the most attention to our species.

You may disagree with the second point, but other Christian sects agree with what I said. As I say, it is a matter of interpretation.

 

[sojourner]

I believe that one of the reasons spiritual entities take on a physical existence is to broaden, challenge and focus our individuality.

I do too. I further feel that the separation spotlights our unity with God.

As humans we cannot get away from ourselves

No, but we can move beyond the false boundaries that we set up for ourselves, and by which we tend to erroneously define ourselves.

I think I have made it clear that there is no penalty or loss if someone does not connect with or believe in GOD during this existence.

I agree. But don't you think it's advantageous for us to discover what it is about life that lies outside ourselves (and inside, where we usually don't go, except through prayer and worship)?

I also feel that some people choose a physical incarnation for the express purpose to get away from GOD.

That's interesting since, in my experience with many different folks, it is very common for us to have an innate yearning for the Divine.

When do you think is an appropriate moment to worship God?

Whenever God calls the community to do that.

Where do you think is an appropriate place to worship God?

Wherever the community gathers to do that. Obviously, some places are more conducive than others, but it depends on the intention of worship.

In your estimation, how much money should it cost to worship God?

Ideally it shouldn't cost anything. But, given that we live in the world of money, it should cost as much as is necessary to procure, arrange, plan, coordinate, and implement worship, such that appropriate movement is facilitated.

 

[sojourner]

What outside sources are you talking about?

The only way I can define it is "God."

You said, "Now we have a greater understanding of how God works in the world." Then you attempt to support that claim by citing examples of scientific discoveries about natural phenomena. That's a non sequitur: we were talking about how god works, not how the world works. It would've been correct to say, "Now we have a greater understanding of how the world works."

Nature is a wonderful revelation of God. Nature works the way God works. No, I understood and was intentional about what I wrote. The more we understand about nature, the more we understand about God.

You said there was evidence. Now you're qualifying that statement by implying that the evidence might not be physical. Well, I've asked you about six times now, what is your supposed evidence?

I'm sorry. I have about six involved convos going. I've completely lost track of exactly what I said about the evidence you reference here. Be so kind as to remind me, so that I don't go off on a tangent.

That story is useful because we know that George Washington existed. We don't know if any god exists, so any "truth" about an apparently imaginary character is useless.

But the story doesn't speak to Washington's existence. It speaks to his character. That's exactly what the God myth does. It already assumes God's existence.

Exactly, we don't believe that Santa Claus is real. The myth is part of our culture and may be useful in some ways, just as Christianity may be useful in some ways even if the Christian god isn't real.

But we believe God is real. God is evidenced through love, benevolence, mercy, compassion, forbearance, providence, etc.
(It would be a little bit of a stretch to say that Santa Claus, while not a physical being, does exist as a personification of the things we ascribe to him.) In the same way, God is the personification of the goodness and love we so long for, and out of which we believe we were created. Although I think there is far more justification for the existence of God as Being, than there is for Santa Claus as a being. Because we believe God to be Impetus and Intention, as well as embodiment and reflection of those things.

Not in the slightest. Faith that something is real/correct is not evidence that it is real/correct. Faith that the world is flat is not evidence that the world is flat.

But our propensity to engender faith (and physiology is moving closer to understanding that innate faith-connection in the brain) is evidence that we want to move toward an understanding of our existence where goodness and love embody everything that we are, or can be. To put it more simply, our propensity to "return home" is evidence that there must be a home for us to return to, or we wouldn't be innately wired that way.

Who makes spiritual progress, we as a species? How so?

Our bodies are larger, more refined than they used to be. We live longer. Our brains are bigger than they used to be. We are more innovative and are becoming better able to multutask. Similarly, we are making spiritual progress, too. I'm not talking about formulating theology, or building worshiping communities. I'm talking about our sense of the spiritual. Even atheists are becoming more open to spiritual ideas than they used to be. Even if they don't make use of a particular mythos. As we improve in one area, we improve in others. Science, I feel, has been a wonderful asset to spirituality.

-God created the universe with humanity in mind
-One must repent in order to be allowed into heaven

Both of these points are beliefs that are held by many Christians.

I firmly beileve that many Christians are mistaken.
The first belief smacks of entitlement.
The second, of inherent brokenness.
I just don't think that's correct. I think we are wonderfully made; we are made good. I think that God created the "world," and placed us here as God's image in that world. But not "with us in mind." There's a difference.

You may disagree with the second point, but other Christian sects agree with what I said. As I say, it is a matter of interpretation.

Actually, I do. But not in the way you might think, which is important to our discussion here.
Heaven isn't a reward for right action. Heaven is the "right state of being" for us. It's a gift. Our repentance isn't some compulsory action, its a frame of mind, that I feel worship should facilitate.