God and Worship

[Jordan St. Francis]

I would also like to add that exterior postures are not always useful when there is a heart that resists their natural interior counter part. No one is saying there is a single way to pray. But human beings are symbolic creatures- we convey meaning through signs. We are both material and spiritual- body and spirit. It is not simply that the inner leads to the outer, but they work together.

One might kneel 100 times without the corresponding "kneeling of the heart"- and one day your heart happens, without explanation, to go with you. Physical postures also whisper to the soul what is happening, and the soul desires to be in union with what its body acts out.

This also helps prevent spirituality from being reduced to mere feeling and creates spiritual endurance.

This is one of the reasons I favor receiving communion kneeling on the tongue- it acknowledges physically what the heart already confesses.

 

[cardero]

This book you keep quoting is starting to sound very silly. And you don't accompany it with any commentary- like simply throwing your own personal scripture at us with no reasoning process.

Perhaps it would only be fair and proper that I ask you where you received and resourced this information...

Jordan St. Francis writes: In order to rest in God, we need a certain interior posture. We need, so to speak, to "be looking up" with our heart, to be "on our knees" - that is we have to be humble, we have to be lowly, we have to be servants, we have to be open to his transcendence in order that we might be lifted up by it.

....and then you may proceed to provide me with the understanding of why you believe this process is reasonable.

 

[rojse]

That's up to the story tellers to describe their characters. What do they say?

To stick with this analogy, every theist is telling the story (whether it is true or not), and I want to hear what they say. Hence, the thread.

 

[rojse]

What IS worship?

I think that the answer to the OP would contain the poster's presumptions on what worship is in their answer, and if not, in someone's follow-up to that answer.

 

[rojse]

Anyone who needs and demands worship and admiration from others sounds like a pretty weak character to me.

Demand and need =/= desire.

 

[blackout]

I rest in gOd best of all in bed.

Truly... then you can rest everything...
lay everything down. Literally.
It's so quiet and cozy and comfortable.
And then there are other aspects of healing
and Becoming and transforming.
For me...as woman...
only bed will do for the deepest inner things.
My deepest inner stirrings and MYthologies.
When I enter in.... I do it in the wholeness of self.
In fullness of body, mind, and spirit.
For one to transform... so must the other two.

Go to your room and pray in private.

So I guess the difference... worship on your knees
Sin in your bed.

 

[blackout]

My posture is an interior one.

Not an "upward" one.
Oh I will sometimes lift a thing up ritually
when I want that thing (or the thing it stands for) raised.

This is also why I lay down when I want to "rest" in gOd.
It's the posture of rest.

Eyes closed... deep inside... amazing things happen there.

 

[blackout]

You know... something just came to mind...

The other night I knelt at the feet of My beautiful Lady Night.
Never have I done that before.
She did a thing for me that had filled me with great gratitude...
and I found mySelf there at her feet...
and I worshipped her in the sense that one worships a lover
who has made their life a greater happier thing.

She drew me to my feet and took me in under her long black cloak.

Women were made to be worshipped.
Suddenly, I am no longer in a querry over the meaning of the word.

 

[blackout]

This is one of the reasons I favor receiving communion kneeling on the tongue- it acknowledges physically what the heart already confesses.

That is also how I used to recieve.
I also wore a veil.
I was usually the only one.

It was the outward expression of my inner posture.
I understand completely.
This deep and reverent experience of RC communion was my very life for almost 10 years.

Obviously my posture and my paradigm has changed since then.

Worship was one of those few words I could not imbue with meaning
in my new paradigm, until tonight.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Maybe you're looking for the wrong type of evidence.

For about the fifth time I ask you then: what is your supposed evidence?

Intuition and wishful thinking are not the same things.

No, but the latter has a great deal of influence on the former.

Speak for yourself. As long as the seeds fall on the road, the birds will come and eat them.

All right, then please elaborate on this statement: "Now we have a greater understanding of how God works in the world." What greater understanding do "we" have?

Society does believe that. Have you seen the overwhelming statics?

No, atheists are the fastest growing minority in America. And again, this is a moot point. If something is not proven false, that does not make it true. Popularity does not add any credibility to a belief without evidence.

And now we know more than we did. And I suspect that, in future, we shall know even more, and our theology will change to accommodate that knowledge. I don't see the problem here, unless you're arguing that our faith = a belief in absolute truth. It doesn't. At least, not for me.

Faith is belief without evidence. Thankfully we do make scientific progress despite the hindrance of religion.

But we believe it is. And there is no proof to compel us to not believe it.

Again, there's no proof that invisible unicorns don't exist either.

Hey, you brought it up. And, as long as you're going to use a specific (and mistaken) "interpretation of the Bible" as a premise for your argument, I think it is a big deal. Part of debate is to show that the premise has no credibility. Thank you for proving my point. (Since the "fact" that your premise is based upon, is "no big deal," your premise must be "no big deal, as well.)

It is still my interpretation of the Bible that god created the universe with humanity in mind, and that one must repent in order to get into heaven. You may have a different interpretation, and a billion others may have a billion different interpretations. I'm not interested in debating scripture.

 

[logician]

"If something is not proven false, that does not make it true. "

Something many religions don't seem to comprehend.

 

[sojourner]

You speak of transformation and ritual.
Two things I understand well.

But what I do not understand is,
Why call a meaning filled ritual "worship"?

What is the key factor that differentiates transformational ritual from worship?

I am transformed in gOd through personal and meaningful ritual as I engage there.
This I know FULL well.
Yet I do not know this thing called worship.

What IS worship?

You asked!

Worship comes from two Anglo-Saxon root-words. The last part -- ship -- means "shape." Indeed, worship is a shape. It's a shape of events, laid out in time. If we look at the "standard Eucharistic liturgy," we find an architecture, or shape, to the elements of worship that remains recognizable, from antiquity to today.

The first part, the wor part, comes from the root-word werden, which means, "to become." It's the same root present in words like "witch" and "weird." In the pericope when Moses asks God's name, and God answers, "I AM that I AM," the Hebrew there is in a "causitive" sense: "I cause to be what comes to be."

So, worship is shape of events in which God creates with us -- causes us to become. The ritual is worship, because it's a specific shape of events in which God transforms us. The actions, postures, and words, themselves, are not "magic." But they all serve to move us toward a stance before God wherein we are open to God's transforming presence with us.

 

[sojourner]

"If something is not proven false, that does not make it true. "

Something many religions don't seem to comprehend.

In many cases, the truth of something is not predicated upon it's not being proved false.

Something many atheists don't seem to comprehend about spiritual matters.

 

[rojse]

You asked!

Worship comes from two Anglo-Saxon root-words. The last part -- ship -- means "shape." Indeed, worship is a shape. It's a shape of events, laid out in time. If we look at the "standard Eucharistic liturgy," we find an architecture, or shape, to the elements of worship that remains recognizable, from antiquity to today.

The first part, the wor part, comes from the root-word werden, which means, "to become." It's the same root present in words like "witch" and "weird." In the pericope when Moses asks God's name, and God answers, "I AM that I AM," the Hebrew there is in a "causitive" sense: "I cause to be what comes to be."

So, worship is shape of events in which God creates with us -- causes us to become. The ritual is worship, because it's a specific shape of events in which God transforms us. The actions, postures, and words, themselves, are not "magic." But they all serve to move us toward a stance before God wherein we are open to God's transforming presence with us.

Interesting... but wouldn't God be capable of transforming anyone he desired without their worship?

 

[sojourner]

Okay thanks, this is what I thought you were referring to, I just needed that extra understanding.

From what I am to understand, GOD is a co-creator in the world that we occupy.

Many good ideas came from these like-minded (spiritual) entities; many different planes of existence were created. Society and life was set up. Planets were formed, atmosphere was apportioned, animals and plants and other matter were catalogued into species. Soon (spiritual) entities were pondering the significance of living a physical existence.

HELLO IT’S ME: An Interview With GOD
Chapter: GOD's Beginnings And Our Relationship To Reality
Pg: 330

Given this understanding of human's pre-spiritual existence, it would seem that humans owe a great deal of worship to a multitude of other entities and creators. As I mentioned earlier, since GOD holds every entity with a particular equality to Himself, I would imagine if we were to revere and exalt every single entity that had a hand in the formation of our reality, the majority of our earthly existence would be spent on our knees and attending more services to different temples, synagogues and churches leaving little time to participate in our own purposes or make the appropriate transformations to our own physical experiences.

If we are to take in consideration the needs and requirements of GOD, we will notice that GOD does not require anything from humans.

I do not need for anyone to LOVE ME or like ME or acknowledge ME. I AM LOVE, and I certainly have enough LOVE for the many who do not want to believe.

HELLO IT’S ME: An Interview With GOD
Chapter:Preferences
Pg: 49

Not even our belief is required for GOD to BE or exist.

The last piece of understanding that I would like to offer is the correlation between GOD’s love and the requirement of human worship.

The only "un" that LOVE is – is UNCONDITIONAL. Do you have to tell someone you LOVE him/her at every moment? No. Do you have to embrace loved ones every opportunity you see them? No.

HELLO IT’S ME: An Interview With GOD
Chapter:Truth, Love And Understanding
Pg: 140

Since GOD expresses His love unconditionally, I would think that the requirement or expectancy of human worship would not be a celebration or an act of reverence but a condition.

When one takes this reasonable understanding into account, we can see that not only worship for GOD is unnecessary but observation amongst the various religions verifies that these acts of worship have crossed into the realms of confusion and excess amongst their worshippers (bordering and infiltrating upon the empty praise you speak about in post #65) So the question remains, if GOD does not require anything from humans (including our worship) who are humans worshipping?

I feel this is a little convoluted, from a theological standpoint. First of all, God is not "co-creator." God is Creator (at least for the Judeo-Christian). And it's that understanding that informs everything else we do. If we are love, it's only because God is love. We are created in God's image. Therefore, "I am love," only in the sense that I reflect "God is love."

The act of creating involves cutting away. God separated the light from the darkness in the first act of creation. The very word holy means, "separate." The Hebrew term for "son" -- ben -- means "cut off from." Hebrew sons are "chips off the old block."

In worship, God helps us to cut away the stuff that we accumulate that keeps us from transformation. In that sense, whenever we worship, we are entering into a process of God creating with us. In other words, worship should not seek to celebrate ourselves, but the God within us. Worship gets us away from ourselves -- from an egocentric perspective -- to a perspective of turning toward God. When we recite a prayer of confession, we repent, that is, we turn away from ourselves, and toward God.

So I don't really see how your model works. We don't worship primarily to tell God that we love God. Worship and adoration are not synonymous in this case. Worship does ascribe worth to God, but not primarily so. We worship in order to enter into the creative process, wherein we learn to see God within and operate out of that paradigm.

 

[blackout]

You asked!

Worship comes from two Anglo-Saxon root-words. The last part -- ship -- means "shape." Indeed, worship is a shape. It's a shape of events, laid out in time. If we look at the "standard Eucharistic liturgy," we find an architecture, or shape, to the elements of worship that remains recognizable, from antiquity to today.

The first part, the wor part, comes from the root-word werden, which means, "to become." It's the same root present in words like "witch" and "weird." In the pericope when Moses asks God's name, and God answers, "I AM that I AM," the Hebrew there is in a "causitive" sense: "I cause to be what comes to be."

So, worship is shape of events in which God creates with us -- causes us to become. The ritual is worship, because it's a specific shape of events in which God transforms us. The actions, postures, and words, themselves, are not "magic." But they all serve to move us toward a stance before God wherein we are open to God's transforming presence with us.

I DID ASK!

Thank you SO MUCH! :rainbow1:

Sojourner just made my day!
:dan:
That word has left me stupified for so long--
and now I finally find out it's a really awesome one!

Can't wait to (re)wrap my mind around it...
"to become shape".
Wershape!

That is so great!

And all the "posture" conversation we've been having is actually
intrinsically relevent to the words etymology.

I know. I'm geeky in my own way. :flirt:

 

[sojourner]

I would also like to add that exterior postures are not always useful when there is a heart that resists their natural interior counter part. No one is saying there is a single way to pray. But human beings are symbolic creatures- we convey meaning through signs. We are both material and spiritual- body and spirit. It is not simply that the inner leads to the outer, but they work together.

One might kneel 100 times without the corresponding "kneeling of the heart"- and one day your heart happens, without explanation, to go with you. Physical postures also whisper to the soul what is happening, and the soul desires to be in union with what its body acts out.

This also helps prevent spirituality from being reduced to mere feeling and creates spiritual endurance.

This is one of the reasons I favor receiving communion kneeling on the tongue- it acknowledges physically what the heart already confesses.

I agree absolutely with everything you've said in at least your last two posts.

 

[sojourner]

I rest in gOd best of all in bed.

Truly... then you can rest everything...
lay everything down. Literally.
It's so quiet and cozy and comfortable.
And then there are other aspects of healing
and Becoming and transforming.
For me...as woman...
only bed will do for the deepest inner things.
My deepest inner stirrings and MYthologies.
When I enter in.... I do it in the wholeness of self.
In fullness of body, mind, and spirit.
For one to transform... so must the other two.

Go to your room and pray in private.

So I guess the difference... worship on your knees
Sin in your bed.

This is great!

 

[sojourner]

No, but the latter has a great deal of influence on the former.

No, it doesn't. People have intuitions that come from quite outside themselves, which inform them. The two are not closely related at all.

All right, then please elaborate on this statement: "Now we have a greater understanding of how God works in the world." What greater understanding do "we" have?

One example: We now know that the sky is not a moveable dome that separates earth from heaven. We also now understand that the sun gives off light -- and how it does that. None of that changes how we intuit the source of the these things.

No, atheists are the fastest growing minority in America. And again, this is a moot point. If something is not proven false, that does not make it true. Popularity does not add any credibility to a belief without evidence.

Belief does not require physical evidence. Why are you trying to hold spirituality to a criterion that does not inform it???
Religion is an expression of culture. It gives voic e to truth -- not fact. There is a difference. For example, school children talk about George Washington's character in terms of chopping down a cherry tree. We know that no such thing really happened. But the story serves to tell a truth about his character.

Another example that you all seem to harp on quite a bit. Santa Claus is not a "real person." But the myth serves to perpetuate a greater truth -- that love is unconditional -- that there is something special about those times when we gather with others to share good will. That is a truth that is not "fact," which is embodied by the culture in the figure of Santa Claus.

Fact is, there are more Christians in America than any other belief (or disbelief). Christianity is imbedded in our culture, and informs our culture. It is a widely -- (perhaps universally) -- accepted vehicle for they mythos that we intuit about how we understand truth.

This has nothing to do with "proving something false," or "proving something factual." It has to do with our intuition and how we perceive and voice truth.

In this case, the "popular" voice has reasoned that Christian spirituality is a valid means of expressing that intuition.

Faith is belief without evidence. Thankfully we do make scientific progress despite the hindrance of religion.

Not quite. Faith is, itself, evidentiary. Thankfully we do make spiritual progress despite the hindrance of empiricism.

Again, there's no proof that invisible unicorns don't exist either.

Againk this isn't about proof. It's about what is reasonable as a mythic expression of truth.

It is still my interpretation of the Bible that god created the universe with humanity in mind, and that one must repent in order to get into heaven.

But you, as an outsider, so to speak, don't get to define "our" religion any way you want, and then proceed to tell us that's the way it "really is," and then tell us we're all wrong and misled.

You may have a different interpretation, and a billion others may have a billion different interpretations.

What do you care? Apparently, none of this really exists to you, anyway. If you spent more time pondering a belief system that works for you, instead of tilting at straw men, you might get a little further in your endeavors.

I'm not interested in debating scripture.

But you are arguing from a (basically) Biblical basis.

 

[sojourner]

Interesting... but wouldn't God be capable of transforming anyone he desired without their worship?

No, primarily because of our own limitations of understanding. The shape of events in worship are symbols that move us, as we take different stances before God. If we've been paying attention to that movement, we find that we're in a whole different place when we finish, than we were in when we started.

We need to see it, smell it, feel it, taste it in ways that have meaning for us, if we are to understand the transformation that is taking place. Otherwise, we likely miss it, and the impact that it will have on us.