God and Worship

[YmirGF]

YmirGF,

I think that depends largely on one's notion of divinity. If one sees human beings as the creation of God- God as Father- and see the divine being as also the "wholly other", this kind of transcendence warrants worship because He would not only be perfect in all respects- but in such a way that our [eventual] perfection would be dependent on His gratuitousness.

Let me start by saying that I have no quarrel with the Catholic Church or its dogma and am quite a fan of the current Pope Benedict XVI. However, I do have a different stance on these matters.

I no longer have a need to perceive reality in terms of divinity and question the idea that a god can bestow a gift gratuitously that in my view was given at our first moment of inception. We are flawed beings, but in our flaws lay our perfection. To my thinking, it is our ignorance of our heritage that gives rise to the fool’s illusion of a gratuitous dependency relationship granting that which we already possess.

My experience is that the direct perception of the "wholly other" can serve as a rather remarkable (and quite unexpected) springboard into the concept (and experience) of "Oneness". My direct experience was that worship gave way to agape or awe when the object of devotion is manifest before you, so much so that due to the proximity, thoughts of worship evaporate, as all that is important is being there.

If, however, one sees "God" or "the gods" as all manifestations of a nature or potential which all sentient beings share, then they become guides along the path for us and not actually the goal of our journey. This would seriously alter the meaning or even necessity of worship.

Agreed. This is partially what I mean when I talk about being a friend of the Joyous Nazarene and yet could never call myself a Christian.

 

[sojourner]

Maybe this god should give broadcasting a shot. If he really wanted to be known, I'm sure he could figure out a way to reveal himself to everyone.

When was the last time you believed everything you heard on the news? When was the last time you believed anything you heard on the news?

Just because you desire to worship a god, does not necessarily mean there is a god that desires to be worshipped.

That would mean I was delusional. However, happily for me, the DSM does not list spirituality as a mental disorder.

Why would this god keep himself hidden and test us to see if we believe in him? If he wanted to be worshipped, I think he'd reveal himself (if he existed).

God isn't hidden.
"Test" as in "strengthen," not "quiz."
God has been revealed.

Or maybe there is no evidence of this god, and you just choose to see it.

See myn 2nd answer here.

What is the evidence, by the way? I'd love to hear it.

I doubt that.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

My direct experience was that worship gave way to agape or awe when the object of devotion is manifest before you, so much so that due to the proximity, thoughts of worship evaporate, as all that is important is being there.

So worship, in your experience, gave way to agape? This is great, because it should be the same for Christians too. Worship that does not lead us into the experience of God and his gratuitous love is missing something essential. [But I agree, there are obvious differences between our notion of divinity and therefore worship]

 

[gnostic]

I would say, from a catholic and Patristic perspective, you are taking these texts at far too externally or at face value.

When we fail to worship God we fail to find ourselves, for our heart is only quiet when it rests in him. Our priorities fall apart and we become entangled in lower things and neglect the higher.

This is what I don't understand about Christians. How do you know which part of the bible to take seriously and which you don't?

• If you don't take these seriously, then why do you take the miracles that Jesus performed seriously?
• Or whatever he taught, like about resurrection and the kingdom of heaven?
• Or Jesus' resurrection itself?
• Do you take what happen to Jesus in the wilderness where he met the Devil?
• Or the apostles speaking in "tongues"?

Do you believe every it say in the gospels and letters, literally?

If so, then why do you take a large part of the OT not as seriously as the strange stuff that go on about the NT?

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

The Scriptures must be read in the context of the life of the Church- the whole People of God animated by the Holy Spirit. Within that people there are certain structures in place by which interpretation is offered, debated and sometimes solemnly clarified [though often it occurs outside the view of these structures]. The Scriptures are not something which can be individually extracted from the whole of Christian Revelation (of which the Church, in a certain sense, remains a living component of). The Bible, as an expression of the Word of God, is a living text offering contemporary guidance for His People and its meaning as such always subsists within that People insofar as it is Christ's own Body. The Word is never exhausted.

Many people today, including many Christians themselves, want to pin it down as though a monarch butterfly upon a cork board. It isn't captured that way- it's killed that way.

This recalls, for me, Ratiznger's essay "Faith and Theology":

Anyone who immerses himself, even for a little while, in the history of theology can see the drama of this tension, this never finished pilgrimage of thought toward Christ, in the attempts it makes again and again; thus he can come to know the beauty and the fascination of the adventure we call theology. Above all, he will see how the Word of God is always in advance of us and our thinking. Not only is it never out of date; everything that claims to be making it outdated quickly becomes outdated itself.

 

[CarlinKnew]

When was the last time you believed everything you heard on the news? When was the last time you believed anything you heard on the news?

If an all-powerful creator wanted to be worshipped, I'm sure he could figure out a way to make us all believe.

That would mean I was delusional. However, happily for me, the DSM does not list spirituality as a mental disorder.

Neither is it considered a mental disorder to hold almost any kind of superstitious beliefs. That has no bearing on their truth value.

God isn't hidden.
"Test" as in "strengthen," not "quiz."
God has been revealed.

How does holding a belief in the absence of evidence strengthen someone? Especially if that belief is comforting? I'd say it takes more strength to face the cold hard facts and deal with a situation without wishful thinking. And where is he then if he isn't hidden?

I doubt that.

You say there's evidence. Where is it?

 

[sojourner]

If an all-powerful creator wanted to be worshipped, I'm sure he could figure out a way to make us all believe.

That would be like making someone love you. Then it's not love.

Neither is it considered a mental disorder to hold almost any kind of superstitious beliefs. That has no bearing on their truth value.

It doesn't? To believe in something not true constitutes delusion. Which is a mental disorder. Therefore, what you're saying is that the mental health professionals consider religious faith to be something other than...superstition.

How does holding a belief in the absence of evidence strengthen someone? Especially if that belief is comforting?

Faith isn't the same thing as wishing. Many times, faith brings us face-to-face with situations we'd rather not acknowledge.

I'd say it takes more strength to face the cold hard facts and deal with a situation without wishful thinking.

See?

And where is he then if he isn't hidden?

Present to us.

You say there's evidence. Where is it?

All around us, if you care to really look and see it.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

God desires that we love Him.

Yeah, lots of absentee parents out there want their kids to love them, but they didn't do anything to deserve it.

 

[CarlinKnew]

That would be like making someone love you. Then it's not love.

No. Revealing himself =/= making us love him.

It doesn't? To believe in something not true constitutes delusion. Which is a mental disorder. Therefore, what you're saying is that the mental health professionals consider religious faith to be something other than...superstition.

No. Superstition =/= delusion. It can't be proven that four-leaf clovers don't actually bring good luck in some mystical way. Someone's faith in four-leaf clovers is just as untouchable by mental health professionals as your faith in a god. But that by no means gives either of your claims credibility.

Faith isn't the same thing as wishing. Many times, faith brings us face-to-face with situations we'd rather not acknowledge.

Overall I'd say it's far more comforting than inconvenient to believe that a supreme being has your best wishes in mind.

See?

Present to us.

All around us, if you care to really look and see it.

All around us is evidence of... the world around us, not of a god.

 

[Storm]

Doubtful. If it does, it should make itself more clear.

Perhaps the opaqueness is deliberate.

Perhaps, but I can't think of any motive that's compatible with being worthy of worship.

Neither can I, but there's that whole unknowable being thing I keep on trying to consider - just because I can't see a motive doesn't mean that there is none.

I guess I just have to turn once again to a favorite quote: "God will understand. And if he does not, then he is not God, and we need not worry." (from Kingdom Of Heaven)

 

[sojourner]

Yeah, lots of absentee parents out there want their kids to love them, but they didn't do anything to deserve it.

God's not "absentee." it is we who are absent from God.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

God's not "absentee." it is we who are absent from God.

I'm right here. There's no god(s) to be seen anywhere.

 

[sojourner]

No. Revealing himself =/= making us love him.

I never said it did. One can't force love. That was my point.

It can't be proven that four-leaf clovers don't actually bring good luck in some mystical way.

Neither can God be disproven.

Someone's faith in four-leaf clovers is just as untouchable by mental health professionals as your faith in a god. But that by no means gives either of your claims credibility.

You're the one who's been intimating delusion -- the belief that something not true is true. Now you want to back away from that stance. Good! It cannot be proven that what we believe in is not true. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable that we believe what we believe.

Overall I'd say it's far more comforting than inconvenient to believe that a supreme being has your best wishes in mind.

But that's far from all that we believe about God and our relationship with God.

All around us is evidence of... the world around us, not of a god.

You have eyes, but you do not see. Ears, but you do not hear.

 

[sojourner]

I'm right here. There's no god(s) to be seen anywhere.

You're here. If you can't see God, it's because you're not where God is. Or where God wants you to be. Maybe if you were to spiritually turn around, you might find God tapping on your shoulder...
But you'd probably ignore that, too.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

You're here. If you can't see God, it's because you're not where God is. Or where God wants you to be. Maybe if you were to spiritually turn around, you might find God tapping on your shoulder...
But you'd probably ignore that, too.

More likely, that people find whatever they're looking for - whether it's actually there or not. I prefer to base what I find on what is actually there - not wishful thinking and self-delusional fantasies. But hey, different strokes.

 

[sojourner]

More likely, that people find whatever they're looking for - whether it's actually there or not. I prefer to base what I find on what is actually there - not wishful thinking and self-delusional fantasies. But hey, different strokes.

Maybe the empirical data you search for is what is self-delusional...
But, hey...

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Maybe the empirical data you search for is what is self-delusional...
But, hey...

Nope, that's not it.

 

[sojourner]

Nope, that's not it.

How do you know?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

How do you know?

Because I understand what both "empirical" and "self-delusional" mean.

 

[CarlinKnew]

I never said it did. One can't force love. That was my point.

You said that if a god revealed himself it would be like making us love him, and then it wouldn't be love. So I repeat:

Revealing himself =/= making us love him.

Neither can God be disproven.

That's my point. Belief in the luck of four-leaf clovers is just as credible as belief in a god.

You're the one who's been intimating delusion -- the belief that something not true is true. Now you want to back away from that stance. Good!

I never said delusion. You said delusion. I said superstition.

It cannot be proven that what we believe in is not true. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable that we believe what we believe.

Simply because a belief can't be proven false does not, in any way shape or form, make it "perfectly reasonable" to believe. It can't be proven false that invisible goblins want me to _______ (fill in the blank with whatever you like). That doesn't make it a "perfectly reasonable" belief.

But that's far from all that we believe about God and our relationship with God.

The belief that the universe was designed with you in mind, that a supreme being cares deeply about you, that you'll be rewarded with eternal paradise for loving him, is comforting enough to vastly outweigh any inconveniences of holding such a belief. Holding such a belief is not a "test of strength," it's a security blanket.

You have eyes, but you do not see. Ears, but you do not hear.

I see and hear very well, thanks. Where's your supposed evidence for a god? Oh right, you don't have a coherent answer.