God before the universe

[FunctionalAtheist]

And how do you know?

Since apparently you are god because know all things and can create all that you can conceive

Good lord? Are you still talking? All the words you've said and not a single sentence recognizing what I've actually said or demonstrating any cognizant thought on your part. Are you a 5th grader?

 

[omega2xx]

Good lord, how thick is a brick? Matter does not require an origin. It has always existed as far as I know. How many ways must I say this? How many times must I say this?

Now, even if it did have some origin, so what? What's your point? I can't explain it so it must be god? Hahaha!

You have to accept that view the same way I accept mine---BY FAITH ALONE.

Did energy and life always existed also?

It is not haw many times you can say it, it is how many times can you prove it. Talk is cheap.

 

[stevevw]

Since abrahamic god is eternal, what was he doing before he created the universe, including heaven and hell?

Just being.

John 1:1-3 states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made."

This speaks of a non-material existence like a thought that can be spoken into existence. That thought existence has always been there and it does not conform to time and space as we know it. We can know some of the qualities of what the word represents. The word created all things, the Word became flesh as in Jesus. So the Word has the power to create something from nothing and all the qualities of Jesus which is primarily Love.

 

[Kenny]

Good lord, how thick is a brick? Matter does not require an origin. It has always existed as far as I know. How many ways must I say this? How many times must I say this?

Now, even if it did have some origin, so what? What's your point? I can't explain it so it must be god? Hahaha!

LOL... and we have established that you don't know that much (as compared to all the knowledge to be acquired) and you certainly don't know if matter has always existed.

And, yes, it was God.

 

[raw_thought]

St. Augustine said that there was no before creation as God created time. Modern physics agrees.

 

[idav]

St. Augustine said that there was no before creation as God created time. Modern physics agrees.

Whether there is a beginning does not tell us what time was before a beginning, and modern physics does not confirm nor deny such an opinion about time without a beginning. Hawkings suggests there was a different kind of time when the universe was not in existence.

Even as soon as you say "god created" implies time. Lets look at what it says, "in the beginning god created", doesn't that imply god couldn't create without a beginning? How would god be god without a beginning of god?

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

St. Augustine said that there was no before creation as God created time. Modern physics agrees.

Really? Modern physics agrees that god created time? That's news to me and my Dungeon Master sitting across the table from me. He has a doctorate in Quantum Physics.

 

[Etritonakin]

I don't know, but.......
Eternal may not mean what we think it means. If something cannot come from nothing, then something has "always" existed. However, that something has not always necessarily existed in the same state or configuration. It is assumed by some that God has always existed in a complex configuration -but it is not actually stated in scripture. God may have always been God -always existing and never changing in some respects, but if God creates, then he -essentially being all that can act and be acted upon -makes himself of a different configuration and makes more to be known even if no new "material" has come into existence. I AM may have always been a true statement, but the definition changes with each change. If no new material can come from nothing, then eternity may be a matter of infinite subdivision. We, ourselves, are a part of the whole -made separate persons by arrangement. In creating us, God essentially separated a part of himself which could then be independent of him by decision -and even create things which are new to him.

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.



That is actually true if "evolving" is not limited to element-based life and its broadest definition is considered.

It is not actually against scripture for "God" to have once been the most simple state possible -and to have self-developed.

Not considering "God" for a moment...... If earthly life represents the first self-aware intelligent beings, it could still at least be said that eventual self-awareness and intelligence is inherent in that which exists. In our cases, we represent a portion of all which exists -and are aware of only a portion of all which exists. It is also true that even though our environment is already in motion and interacting according to logic, there are some things which cannot happen without intelligence and self-awareness.

We may find that this is true of everything -that "God" -everything and the mind thereof -must have possessed or developed self-awareness and intelligence for things to become as they are.

Is it more logical that complex configurations and order such as the universe and periodic table develop in tandem with an overall intelligence and self-awareness -or for extremely complex configurations and order to develop first and alone -eventually resulting in mass-produced self-awarenesses and intelligences?

Think I heard that last part somewhere -but the universe seems very much a purpose-built environment for physical life, whereas an initial intelligence would be more likely to order its own environment as the intelligence itself became ordered.
A basic environment and basic interaction would likely precede the emergence of awareness and self-awareness, but an extremely complex and ordered environment and complex systems would likely be preceded by intelligence.

That which exists likely simply exists.
That which exists may have the potential to become various things, but every configuration must be preceded by a configuration which allows for the next.

Our bodily configuration was necessarily preceded by the configuration of the elements.
However, though our intelligence resides in such a body, that which allows for intelligence itself does not necessarily require the preexistence of the physical elements. The elements are an arrangement of that which preceded them, and a similar sort of intelligence might reside is some other configuration.
The fact that our intelligence resides in an element-based body actually limits our abilities by limiting our interface.
An intelligence residing in that which preceded the elements would not be subject to those elements.

 

[confused453]

An intelligence residing in that which preceded the elements would not be subject to those elements.

Maybe it wouldn't be limited by our universe, but surely it would be limited in its own domain. Maybe that intelligence is pretending to be an eternal being, because of not knowing how it came to be.

 

[YmirGF]

One version is that the Hindu God got tired of being alone (I do not know how long was that period. You see, a trillion human years could just be a moment for Lord Vishnu). So he said 'Ekoham bahusyami' (I am one, I will be many). That created the universe and what it contains.

It's the only reason for creation that really makes sense.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It's the only reason for creation that really makes sense.

I would not say so. I have found other reasons equally justified if this one is. Although the best is the scientific reason - Big Bang and all.

 

[YmirGF]

I would not say so. I have found other reasons equally justified if this one is. Although the best is the scientific reason - Big Bang and all.

Agreed, but I was meaning the creation myths, not science.

A god with only its imagination for company is about as lonely as reality could possibly get.

Other than scientific ideas, I'd be interested in those other reasons...

 

[Aupmanyav]

Creation and destruction by dance is another interesting way. Shiva dances and sounds his rattle and the universe appears pixel by pixel and at the end of cycle fades in a similar way.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Since abrahamic god is eternal, what was he doing before he created the universe, including heaven and hell?

This is like asking what you were doing before you were born... It's nonsensical.

God cannot exist without the Universe to create him - "He" is a construct - a product of our evolution and experience.

 

[Etritonakin]

Maybe it wouldn't be limited by our universe, but surely it would be limited in its own domain. Maybe that intelligence is pretending to be an eternal being, because of not knowing how it came to be.

I am not saying the following is the case, but....

Perhaps that depends on the definition of "eternal". I have always existed is not the same as saying I have always known that I existed, and I AM is not the same as saying I have always known that I AM.

An eternal being could be composed of that which simply "always" existed -but developed complex self-awareness and intelligence one step at a time from simple self-awareness and intelligence (simple interaction is simple awareness, etc.)

Once complex intelligence and self-awareness develops, anything previously not considered can be considered and determined to have been a certain way based on complete available information -similar to how we can determine much of what has been in the past even though we have incomplete information. An overall self-developing intelligence essentially composed of everything and able to interface with everything could determine that it had considered everything -whereas we are composed of a small portion of everything which has already developed/been developed, and have access to only a portion of available information.

Though I disagree with the statement above... "God cannot exist without the Universe to create him - "He" is a construct - a product of our evolution and experience." ....it is logical that God must be composed of something -must exist as an arrangement of something -or, more correctly -everything.
The universe is not required for God to exist, but that of which the universe is composed is some portion of that which has always existed -which is also that of which God would be composed.
Everything would essentially be the "body" of God -and that part of which that is arranged to process, remember, etc. would be his mind -the mind being able to affect and arrange the body.

Though the elements once did not exist, that of which they are composed existed before them. Logic -or law -was applied to that which existed to determine a new arrangement -and those new laws (which are by new arrangement) must be based on the most basic absolute law/absolute logic.

God is quoted in the bible as saying he is accountable to himself. His own nature -the nature of that which exists -he cannot deny. The logic thereof is the basis of all truth.
Though you are technically correct in saying that he is "limited" (paraphrasing) to the most basic nature of all that exists, that nature is what allows for infinite creation, absolute truth, etc.
For example... not even God is able to say that 1+1 is not 2. Some have wondered if God is a mathematician -but he certainly must be. If "God is one" (the sum of all things which cannot be created or destroyed), and any activity occurs -math ensues. If there was only one or no thing and no activity, math would essentially not exist (except 0 or 1 and none to consider them). As things can become arranged and reconfigured, math continues to represent that arrangement and reconfiguration.

Also.... though God has the ultimate power of decision, those decisions must (if things are to go well, and as determined) be based on truth -and certain decisions are essentially no-brainers.
For example... if one overall intelligence develops, becomes self-aware (looks in a mirror, as it were), likes being himself, etc. -self-replication/reproduction is a logical step.

Though it may seem like limitation, it is actually a firm foundation upon which and from which anything imaginable may be built. Again, some things must be built due to the most basic nature of all things -and happiness can be derived from that which must be built -but much beauty and joy is in the details which need not be of any particular description.

Basic needs must be met, but meeting those needs makes many awesome things possible.