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God Chose Them but For What Purpose?

Do you believe they are setting a good example for us to follow?

  • yes

    Votes: 3 60.0%
  • no

    Votes: 1 20.0%
  • have not decided yet

    Votes: 1 20.0%

  • Total voters
    5
  • Poll closed .

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I see no reason why one or many together cannot try; even you

It would be a futile and frustrating exercise I'm afraid. Together mankind could accomplish much good but look around you...where is this good we know is achievable? What is preventing this good from overpowering the monumental evil in this world? The Bible answers very simply....
1John 5:19....
"We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."

"If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through." (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

The devil rules this world and his kingdom is set up in opposition to God's Kingdom, promoted by Jesus and his true disciples.
The devil has the power to "blind the minds of unbelievers"...imagine what that means? Unlike physical blindness, this lack of sight affects the mind, the centre that processes all the information gathered by the senses. Nothing will penetrate such a mind. They are all led by propaganda that makes the devil often look like the good guy, and God seem like a tyrannical despot, as we have seen from the views of some posters on these forums.

If Jesus said that the 'cramped and narrow road to life' would be chosen by the "few" but not the "many" (Matthew 7:13-14) then what hope is there of humans ever being able to conquer the devil on his own turf?

Luke 13:23-24...
"Now a man said to him: “Lord, are those being saved few?” He said to them: 24 Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able."

Why would Jesus say this? And who is he addressing in Matthew 7:21-23?

Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"

These are people who claim Jesus as their "Lord".....but who seem to want to correct Jesus when he tells them he never knew them. They think that their Christianity is perfectly acceptable to God, but Jesus tells them otherwise. Never would we want those words to apply to us! So how do we make sure that they don't?

I want the world Jewish community to call upon the Jewish Israeli people to ask the Lord for forgiveness and repent for their sins and proclaiming the Palestinians as one of their own, children of God just as their children are.

You are talking about a long history of resentment and hatred on both sides of this awful conflict....and over what? A piece of dirt. People are suffering and dying over who owns a piece of dirt. But the animosity between Muslims and Jews goes back to the days of father Abraham. His two sons were divided from the time Isaac was born. Ishmael was firstborn but through an Egyptian handmaiden by an accepted surrogacy arrangement. But the promised seed was to come through Sarah. The animosity festered so badly that God ended up telling Abraham to send Ishmael away with his mother. But he promised to also make a great nation out of him. This is why the Muslim faith is also "Abrahamic"...it came through Ishmael.

We have reached the point where, because of Christ's sacrifice, the blessing of people of all nations is now possible (as God promised Abraham). But there were conditions. Just as there were conditions in Eden for continued life and blessings, (obedience to God's command) so obedience to the teachings of the Christ is a requirement...not just the convenient ones, but ALL of them.

There is nothing to prevent people from all religious faiths from accepting Jesus as the doorway to God, but it means relinquishing their previously held beliefs. They must all follow one shepherd according to John 10:1-5.....

"Most truly I say to you, the one who does not enter into the sheepfold through the door but climbs in by another way, that one is a thief and a plunderer. 2 But the one who enters through the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The doorkeeper opens to this one, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought all his own out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice. 5 They will by no means follow a stranger but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

The Shepherd leads his own sheep out of where they were, and instructs them to follow him in the right path. They follow his voice alone...not the voice of false shepherds who are 'strangers' to God and want to lead them in an opposite direction.

So from my understanding of the scriptures, there is no point in chastising anyone over their past mistakes or forcing them to do things against their will....all God is interested in now is what people do from today onward. Repentance must come from the heart....it cannot be forced.

God is having the "good news" of his Kingdom preached in all the world (Matthew 24:14) so that all may have an opportunity to hear and respond....but realistically, "few" will. We have to concentrate on not only being among those few, but in helping others to do so as well. (Revelation 22:17-18)

Human politics will continue to divide mankind because of who controls them, but God's spirit will unite his people as one in spite of this, because there is no greater force in the Universe.
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
They think that their Christianity is perfectly acceptable to God, but Jesus tells them otherwise.

I am not sure who "they" are in your post and having said that, Christianity was created through Jesus and not in opposition to it.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
Who said the Jews were chosen by the Creator to set an example?

In Deuteronomy 32.8 (taking the oldest available text, the Septuagint) it says
When the Most High divided the nations, when he distributed the children of Adam, he set the boundaries of the nations according to the number of the angels of God; and Jacob ['s descendants], his people, were allotted to Yahweh.​
In other words, the Creator assigned guardian angels to various tribes, one of whom, Yahweh got the descendants of Abraham.

The claim that Yahweh was the Creator started in the 8th century, with Jehu and Hezekiah.
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Who said the Jews were chosen by the Creator to set an example?

(Deu 7:6 KJV) For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

(Deu 7:7 KJV) The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

(Deu 7:8 KJV) But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh King of Egypt.

(Deu 7:9 KJV) Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

(Deu 7:11 KJV) Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

(Deu 7:12 KJV) Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he swore unto thy fathers:

(Deu 7:13 KJV) And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kin, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.

(Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

(Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Deu 24:19 KJV) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

(Deu 24:20 KJV) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Deu 24:21 KJV) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow

(Jer 7:6 KJV) If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

(Jer 22:3 KJV) Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

(Zec 7:10 KJV) And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

(Exo 22:21 KJV) Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

If they do the above God will

(Deu 7:13 KJV) And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kin, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.


 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I am not sure who "they" are in your post and having said that, Christianity was created through Jesus and not in opposition to it.

"They" are the ones telling Jesus at the final judgment that they are Christians, doing all manner of things 'in his name' that in their estimations makes them his disciples, but in fact, he says they never were. How could that be?!

We can see 'how' by what happened in Judaism to turn it into something that Jesus railed against. Men had taken what God initiated, and added to it all manner of things that did not belong. So by the time Jesus began his ministry, many among the Jews were "lost" because the appointed shepherds did not care about them and made no effort to search for them and recover them. (Hence Jesus' illustration of the lost sheep) When Jesus came, he said he was sent only to those "lost sheep" in Israel.

Jesus and his apostles warned that "weeds" of false "Christianity" would be sown by the devil in the same "field" as the "wheat" sown by Jesus. This was to happen, he said, "while men were sleeping".

We have testimony from the apostles that, even while they were still alive (towards the end of the first century,) there were those who were already trying to bring in their own ideas, and leading others to follow them. But once the apostles died, their 'restraining influence' went with them. The devil then did what he has been doing from the beginning. Dividing and conquering.

All we have to do is look at history to see where it all went 'belly up'. Almost 2,000 years of men adulterating Christ's teachings have resulted in the world's most fragmented religion. To date there are literally thousands of sects claiming to be Christ's disciples. All teaching different things but still claiming to be Christians.

Sadly, one of the most emotive things that divides Christians is politics and nationalism. Your mention of the current US President demonstrates that you too are politically divided from other "Christians" in that nation.

When Jesus told his disciples to be "no part of this world" what do you think he meant?
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Sadly, one of the most emotive things that divides Christians is politics and nationalism.

Politics has nothing to do with religion. They are separate and apart and our for-fathers intended it to be that way for good reasons.

Your mention of the current US President demonstrates that you too are politically divided from other "Christians" in that nation.

Again you conflate politics with religion. That is your mistake, not mine

When Jesus told his disciples to be "no part of this world" what do you think he meant?

I am not sure Jesus said that or It could even be a poor translation.

Either way I have no comment
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
"They" are the ones telling Jesus at the final judgment that they are Christians,

I am confused, the term “Christians” did not come into being until after Jesus’ death.

At the time of Jesus’ life there was only one religion and that was Judaism.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but in doing so please tell me why in your own words.

Thanks in advance
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No. It's the response I use when confronted with Jew-baiting hypocritical nonsense.

You have hurt my feelings. As I said before, I posted biblical verses and those verses speak for themselves.

I have nothing against Jews and to be quite frank about this I may be Jewish myself.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Politics has nothing to do with religion. They are separate and apart and our for-fathers intended it to be that way for good reasons.

So you see no interference from religion to influence the world's political systems including your own? For Americans, I know that it's hard to see past their own nation, because it seems to be all that is focused on, but the rest of the world exists and satan is the one leading them all to create division and conflict. It's all the world has ever known since the beginning.

Again you conflate politics with religion. That is your mistake, not mine

When someone purports to be a "Christian" (as I am sure that you are aware that US Presidents often claim to be) one cannot ignore that their conduct is hardly "Christ-like" a lot of the time. Shouldn't a person's religious faith affect their conduct? Don't you think that a person's religious beliefs would affect their attitude towards the one they voted for? You cannot separate religion from politics in that situation. Like it or not, they are inextricably linked.

I am not sure Jesus said that or It could even be a poor translation.

John 17:14 KJV...
"I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."

ASV...
"I have given them thy word; and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."

ESV...
" I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world."

Mounce Interlinear...
"I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they do not belong to the world , just as I do not belong to the world ".

NIV...
"I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world."

Can you see the reason why Christians would be "hated"? It was because of not being part of that world that 1 John 5:19 tells us is ruled by the devil. He said...
"We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (Mounce Interlinear) See also John 15:18-21.

There is no part of this world that is unaffected by the devil's influence....corrupt politics....greedy commerce.....and false religion are all controlled by him.

Either way I have no comment

Why? Does considering these things make you feel uncomfortable?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I am confused, the term “Christians” did not come into being until after Jesus’ death.

At the time of Jesus’ life and ministry, there was only one religion for worshippers of YHWH....and that was Judaism. Jesus did not come to change their religion but to correct it and to lead the "lost sheep" back into the fold. The Pharisees did not want to be corrected and still don't. So "Christianity" separated themselves from Judaism. The old covenant concluded and the new covenant was instituted with Jesus' apostles on the night before his death. Judaism stuck to their corruption of the Law and Jesus taught his Jewish brothers how to worship God under the new arrangement. That they claimed to be "Christians" didn't alter that.It was originally called "The Way" for obvious reasons.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but in doing so please tell me why in your own words.

You are correct.....but when the Jewish followers of Jesus became too much for the the religious leaders to tolerate, they were expelled from the Jewish places of worship and forced to meet in the homes of the disciples and elsewhere. A clear division had taken place and there was no longer a need to adhere to a religious system that Jesus said had clearly lost its way.

Jesus words apply....Matthew 23:37-39...(NLT)
" O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me. 38 And now, look, your house is abandoned and desolate. 39 For I tell you this, you will never see me again until you say, ‘Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the Lord!"
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Shouldn't a person's religious faith affect their conduct?

Yes, on a personal level between their friends and those they meet.

Don't you think that a person's religious beliefs would affect their attitude towards the one they voted for?

If a person running for a political office expresses views about religion that are contrary to my views on religion I would not vote for that person because of it.

You cannot separate religion from politics in that situation. Like it or not, they are inextricably linked.

When it comes to politics, a political person's views on religion are none of my business. If that person chooses to bring in religion as part of his/her political platform and that view is contrary to my understanding of religion I would not vote for that person.

When it come to politics, the Politician makes an oath that he or she will abide my our constitution and follow the laws therein. If I believe that person is sincere in carrying out that oath and defend our nation from enemies from within out from abroad I will vote for that person. And I could care less what religious faith that person professes to.

How about you-?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Yes, on a personal level between their friends and those they meet.

Since Jesus said that we are to love even our enemies, how does that leave room to treat anyone without love? (agape)

The Bible speaks about our conduct as imitating Jesus' own example. So politically, what example do we have in Jesus?

It helps to understand what situation he was born into. The Jews were suppressed under the yoke of the powerful Roman Empire, who had taken over control their homeland. Many of the Jews were chafing under that oppressive rulership. There were a group of militants called the Zealots who were seeking to shake off the shackles of Roman by overthrowing them. They were zealous for Jewish freedom and, spurred on by messianic fervor.....and were willing to use violence. They even despised fellow Jews who sought peace with the Roman authorities.

Their uprisings did not lead to Jewish liberation but rather, their actions sowed the seeds for national disaster—the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in 70 C.E. Some Zealots fled to the mountain fortress of Masada, which had been occupied by those who were called Sicarii (Dagger Men). In 73 C.E., after a two-year siege, the Zealots committed mass suicide rather than surrender.

The point? Jesus never once suggested that his disciples engage in either supporting or opposing the Roman political system in any way. He always showed himself to be politically neutral. The recommendation was to obey their rulers, unless they demanded that the disciples break a law of God or a teaching of Jesus. (Acts 5:29)

If a person running for a political office expresses views about religion that are contrary to my views on religion I would not vote for that person because of it.

If we claim to be a disciple of Jesus, then we first have to acknowledge and understand who is pulling the strings behind the global political system. Can we afford to get roped into it?

The Apostle John wrote..."We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." (1 John 5:19) There is no part of this world that the devil does not control.

Have you ever considered that if we participate in that political system, then we are unwittingly serving the devil and supporting his rulership? And if we have put someone in office, then we become an accessory in whatever that person does whilst in office. Jesus said we were to be no part of that world for a very good reason.

When it come to politics, the Politician makes an oath that he or she will abide my our constitution and follow the laws therein. If I believe that person is sincere in carrying out that oath and defend our nation from enemies from within out from abroad I will vote for that person. And I could care less what religious faith that person professes to.

How about you-?

If the person(s) who lead my nation or yours decide to go to war, and we all know that war in this century (and the last) involves the killing of many innocent people....(civilian women and children) if you can see that voting for that person makes you a co-respondent in their activities, what do you think Jesus would want us to do? We too would bear the guilt for the murder of innocents.

To my way of thinking, a Christian would not touch politics with a barge pole. That means we remain innocent of blood guilt and not supportive of the devil's rulership in any way. Any 'friendship" with is world, makes us enemies of God. (James 4:4) Better to be friends with Jesus and his Father.

If we are to 'love our enemies' (Matthew 5:44) then tell me how we could ever do that with weapons? (2 Corinthians 10:3-5) Our warfare can only be spiritual. Our weapons are spiritual and prayer is how we stay on track without getting sucked into the emotional hype of nationalism. Christians are citizens of God's kingdom, not part of any earthly nation.

That is the position I take.
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
To my way of thinking, a Christian would not touch politics with a barge pole. That means we remain innocent of blood guilt

Your statement is a clever way to stop people from voting. If a bad person gets elected then you are free of guilt because you didn't vote. But, but, but if you had voted and your vote carried the vote that got the other person (the good one) elected then you saved the world from harm. But, but, but you didn't vote and now the devil rules.
P.S. only cons tell you not to vote and they say this for self serving reasons.

Any 'friendship" with is world, makes us enemies of God.

With no animosity intended or implied, that statement is rubbish.

Christians are citizens of God's kingdom, not part of any earthly nation.

A large portion of the USA (an earthy nation) citizenry are Christians and here in the USA we have the right to vote so get out and vote.
 
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