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God Chose Them but For What Purpose?
- Thread starter james dixon
- Start date
Try Matthew 23....the whole chapter.
I tried to read it
I read
Mumbo jumbo
What did you read-?
I read
Mumbo jumbo
What did you read-?
Just asking as one friend to another.
I await your enlightenment.
-
I tried to read it
I read
Mumbo jumbo
What did you read-?
Just asking as one friend to another.
I await your enlightenment.
Were you not asking about Jesus' problem with Judaism?
Matthew 23 is his assessment of the Pharisees' version of it.
What enlightenment were you waiting for exactly....?
Jacob Samuelson
Active Member
You have no right to judge another in this way-
Only the Lord has that right, and the Lord my be referred to as "God" & He is judging you right now ----
as I see it
You are terribly mistaken friend. I had no intention to judge or claim the right to declare some kind of illness towards Christians or Jews. Yes God will judge me for any harm I do to my fellow man. If you want me to say Christians are the only ones who know what's going on in God's head then I am sorry to offend but there is no basis to that. Every church in Christianity falls incredibly short to what God intends for them to be. You cannot ignore that. Why is there so much contention towards other beliefs and claims that everyone but you and those who believe like you is damned. That goes sooooo far away from Christ Mosess Abraham and Gods teaching. Do you understand what I'm saying? Tell me where it gets confusing?
Jacob Samuelson
Active Member
Tell me about this gem you found. What do you believe? Is it based on truth found from God or Man? I will prove your church, it must contain all the responsibilities of God contained by His words.I believe I found one about 48 years ago.....and I'm still there.....still learning....still appreciating the precious gems that tumble from God's word.Nothing and no one is this world is perfect, but God never asked for perfection...he only ever asked for obedience.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
They were priests to the nations. Yes... He made the right choice and, at least in Christian understanding, they will become the end-time evangelists.
It was the right choice because He used the faith of Abraham to bless the nations. It was the right choice because the kept the scriptures. It was the right choice because through them He taught us to show us how to treat the stranger. to show us how to be compassionate,. to show us how to be loving to your neighbor. It was the right choice because through them the Messiah came and will come again.
Peace will be upon this earth
"It was the right choice because through them the Messiah came and will come again.
Peace will be upon this earth" Unquote.
Yes, the Messiah has come again in the form of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908.
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Please identify the person "He" and the person who chose him "Chosen One".
If they are not different persons then the statement is wrong. Right, please?
Regards
not if he died
Tell me what you believe the true church would teach and we can compare notes.
Tumah
Veteran Member
Yes, but what's that got to do with anything?
Nope.
You are partly right and partly wrong. It was through the code of Law that Adam expressed his obeisance to his Creator. Without a Law, there is nothing to obey (Gen. 2:15). But again, this has nothing to do with anything.
Maybe some of us wouldn't exist. And yet again, nothing to do with anything.
No, you did not see the verse from where I took that alternate translation. Here are three examples where the same word is used. You can clearly see that it is incorrect to translate the word as "if", but rather "if only" or "would that":
Gen. 24:42
And I came today to the spring, and said, "G-d, G-d of my master Abraham, if/would that You will grant success to my way on which I am going..."
Psa. 81:9
Listen, my nation, and I will admonish you; if/would that you will listen to me.
Psa. 139:19
If/would that you will kill - [o ]G-d - the wicked, and men of bloods, depart from me.
Sometimes, the word אם although typically translated as "if" just doesn't mean that. Hebrew is a different language and it uses it's words differently than does English. In these cases, the correct translation is something that suggests request, "if only" or "would that".
It hasn't happened yet. This is one of the Messianic prophecies. Generally, all the prophecies that start with "Days are coming" or something like that, are Messianic. It's particularly clear here, as it includes prophecy about Ephraim (referring to the Israelite kingdom, naturally) returning from captivity, which has not yet happened.
The number of times is immaterial. There was no stipulation that G-d would only punish us if we turn away from him 5 times and after that, we're on our own. It simply says that when we don't listen to G-d, we get punished. And that's what's happened.
As above, all these curses were materialized when we turned away from G-d. And that's as expected: if we don't follow G-d's Law, we are punished severely commensurate to the importance of keeping them. Being part of the covenant was not conditional, it was compulsory and there's no way out. What is stipulated is only whether G-d will reward us or punish us.
This paragraph is nonsense as it starts with an assumption that has no validity and it ends with a complaint based on that assumption.
That's not an argument, unless you plan to discredit the NT with that as well.
Lots.
Absolutely. Compare our lives today when we lived under Christian Europe. Leaving the persecution of Christiandom has been a wonderful blessing that has allowed Torah study to prosper by leaps and bounds! What greater blessing can there be than that?
If you start off with the assumption that no single item of the Law is really required and you can just gloss over it with some nice statements about the spirit of the law, then you're right, the Law can be pretty simple. However, if like us, you take G-d's Words seriously and every word has importance, then you're wrong.
This is literally the first chapter I opened up to:
Ex. 12:15 - [For] seven days unleavened [bread] shall you eat. However, on the first day, you shall remove leavening from your houses...
Ex. 12:19 - [For] seven days, leavening shall not be found in your houses...
It's impossible to follow both these commandments at the same time as translated. You're either going to be transgressing the first commandment to remove leavening from your house on the first day, or you're going to transgress the second commandment to not have leavening in your house for seven days. Here's another:
A priest who touches something unclean is forbidden from eating sanctified food. Here's when he's allowed again:
Lev. 22:6-7 "and a soul that touches it shall be impure until the evening. And he shall not eat from the sanctified [foods] excepting if he washes his flesh in water. And the sun will come and will be pured, and after he shall eat from the sanctified [foods].
What astronomical phenomenon needs to occur in order for the priest to be allowed to eat these foods?
Lev:23:40
And you shall take for yourselves on the first day: fruit of a beautiful tree, palms of dates, a branch of a thick-tree and river willows and you shall rejoice before G-d for seven days.
What the heck are we being told to do here exactly?
I don't think you read what I wrote. Or maybe you just read what you wanted to...?
If you start with the assumption that the Talmud adds to G-d's Word, then you might have a question. But since it doesn't, there's no question.
That's simple. The books of the NT were written by people who themselves never saw anything that was spoken about in the works they wrote. So there's no reason to take their word for anything. On the other hand, as I keep pointing out, there is strong reason to disbelieve what they wrote as it was clearly intended as a polemic. You're trust in the NT's narrative is as wise as trusting Trump's description of Hillary (assuming he made one) before an election.
That's a stupid question that Christians keep asking and I think really exemplifies that lack of importance Christianity places on using your head. There's a commandment to tithe my fields. Do you think I'm transgressing that commandment by not tithing fields I don't have? Obviously commandments that are contingent on a time, place or item are not in effect until those parameters are met. If I have no field, I don't need to tithe it. If I have no Temple, I don't need to bring sacrifices. If it's not the middle of Nisan, I don't have to bring a Paschal sacrifice.
You can't play both sides of the fence, buddy.
I'm not sure I understand the question as the comment was in a different context. I'll give it a try if I didn't answer it, please let me know.
The "Chosen one" was/is Jesus Christ (in the New Testament understanding). He was designated as the one when the Holy Spirit came upon him and a voice came from Heaven saying "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased"
In reality, even before when Gabriel said to Mary
, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.
31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus.
32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,
33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
The Jewish leaders of Jesus' day prided themselves on being able to claim relationship to Father Abraham and I believe that records kept in the temple confirmed their familial heritage. It is my understanding that when the temple was destroyed the records were destroyed too, so there is no way a person today can confirm their lineage. If the Messiah was to come now, how could you confirm his lineage? How would he provide his credentials?
Adam had no laws to obey except one....'don't eat the fruit of the only tree that belonged to God.' So because there was only one command.....they didn't need a complex set of rules because they were created without defect and had no reason to disobey that simple command.....until the serpent made it seem attractive to the woman....who in turn enticed the man. There was no formal worship. By their very existence they praised God. Taking care of God's earth was not something complicated....it was sin that complicated everything, necessitating the implementation of laws to govern that sinful behavior.
Its got everything to do with everything. If Adam had not disobeyed God's only command, we would not be living in a world with all that sin has contributed to the misery of this life. No sin would have meant no aging, sickness or death. No sin would have meant no need for laws governing human behavior. We would all naturally follow God's direction.
None of those scriptures you used as examples issue an ultimatum or an interdependent agreement. None of them had to do with life and death issues.
The first one is about the choice of Isaac's wife. The servant asked God to indicate which of the women he was sent to select was most suitable. Rebecca was the one.
In the second one "IF" is used in verse 9 because it is a conditional statement....V 13 says..."But My people did not hearken to My voice, neither did Israel desire to [follow] Me." But "IF ONLY" is in verse 14, 15. "If only My people would hearken to Me, if Israel would go in My ways. In a short time I would subdue their enemies and upon their enemies I would return My hand." There is a clear distinction between the two renderings because we can see from the context why they are translated that way.
The third uses "IF ONLY" because it is a plea.
Exodus 19:5-6 says
"And now, if you obey Me and keep My covenant, you shall be to Me a treasure out of all peoples, for Mine is the entire earth. הוְעַתָּ֗ה אִם־שָׁמ֤וֹעַ תִּשְׁמְעוּ֙ בְּקֹלִ֔י וּשְׁמַרְתֶּ֖ם אֶת־בְּרִיתִ֑י וִֽהְיִ֨יתֶם לִ֤י סְגֻלָּה֙ מִכָּל־הָ֣עַמִּ֔ים כִּי־לִ֖י כָּל־הָאָֽרֶץ:
6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of princes and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the children of Israel." ווְאַתֶּ֧ם תִּֽהְיוּ־לִ֛י מַמְלֶ֥כֶת כֹּֽהֲנִ֖ים וְג֣וֹי קָד֑וֹשׁ אֵ֚לֶּה הַדְּבָרִ֔ים אֲשֶׁ֥ר תְּדַבֵּ֖ר אֶל־בְּנֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵֽל:
This is very straight forward....."IF" Israel obeyed their God and kept his commandments, God would respond accordingly....but if they failed then the covenant reverts...they would NOT become "a kingdom of princes and a holy nation".
It seems to me to be a strange thing that you can interpret "if" as "if only" when it is convenient for you to do so. It is twisted semantics to assume that you can have that kind of control over what the word of God says to Israel. "IF" indicates a command, whereas "if only" sounds like a request. The above is clearly NOT a request....it is a conditional agreement.
This is not good justification IMO....just a lame excuse for why Israel could never get their act together.
What if the days have come and gone and you missed him? You must be very patient people.....not obedient apparently...and seemingly not determined to always obey your God as he commanded (not requested) but you will wait until someone comes along that fits into your definition of the Messiah. I guess after all this time, its not a priority.....?
Actually once was enough. It goes with the "if" command to obey your God and keep his covenant. Why did Israel fail on so many occasions? Why is God under obligation to keep forgiving a people he wanted to exterminate?
After the golden calf incident, "...the Lord said to Moses: "I have seen this people and behold! they are a stiff necked people. טוַיֹּ֥אמֶר יְהֹוָ֖ה אֶל־משֶׁ֑ה רָאִ֨יתִי֙ אֶת־הָעָ֣ם הַזֶּ֔ה וְהִנֵּ֥ה עַם־קְשֵׁה־עֹ֖רֶף הֽוּא:
10 Now leave Me alone, and My anger will be kindled against them so that I will annihilate them, and I will make you into a great nation." יוְעַתָּה֙ הַנִּ֣יחָה לִּ֔י וְיִֽחַר־אַפִּ֥י בָהֶ֖ם וַֽאֲכַלֵּ֑ם וְאֶֽעֱשֶׂ֥ה אֽוֹתְךָ֖ לְג֥וֹי גָּדֽוֹל: (Exodus 32:9-10)
At what point does God judge the nation as incorrigible? Jesus indicated that the time had come back in the first century.
But the punishment was the reverse of the reward. If he wanted to exterminate Israel because of their failures, then what was the only thing that prompted him to keep forgiving them? He had not yet produced the Messiah.....and when he did, because Jesus did not fit the pre-determined mold that Israel had created for him, they rejected him and had him put to death....just as their forefathers had treated the many prophets sent to correct this wayward nation in the past.
I would hardly put the Jewish Rabbi's on a par with the apostles....but that is because of my beliefs concerning Jesus.
Such as.....?
You see Israel today as a place of peace and prosperity? A blessed land and a blessed people? I must be hearing the wrong news reports.
As Isaiah wrote "And when you spread out your hands, I will hide My eyes from you, even when you pray at length, I do not hear; your hands are full of blood." (Isaiah 1:15) Are Israel's hands not still "full of blood"?
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
paarsurrey said: ↑
"It was the right choice because through them the Messiah came and will come again.
Peace will be upon this earth" Unquote.
Yes, the Messiah has come again in the form of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908.
Regards
"It was the right choice because through them the Messiah came and will come again.
Peace will be upon this earth" Unquote.
Yes, the Messiah has come again in the form of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908.
A human has to die, like Jewish-Jesus-Messiah died so did the Islamic-Jesus-Messiah die.
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
So who chose the "Chosen-One", Jesus himself chose or the Jehovah/G-d chose Jesus as a human prophet/messenger to the Jewish people?
Regards
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
We repent of our sins as a people every year on Yom Kippur.
Does the State of Israel have a halo over its head? No. But it still has the right to exist as a Jewish state, and it's way past time for the Palestinians to recognize that--there can be no peace without this.
The Children of Israel are set apart as a priestly nation. The Palestinians are not part of that, nor are any Gentiile people. It doesn't mean that God doesn't love and value Gentiles.
Anyone who participates in terrorism, Jew or Palestinian, is a terrible person who needs to repent, and furthermore needs to be taken into custody, tried, and punished. That would include ALL of Hamas...
So, are you saying that you are a natural born sinner who cannot help but sin; so each year you have this "Yom Kippur" that cleans your sinful soul on a yearly bases-? (just asking)
Your statement on it's face is racists.
Racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, which often results in discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity. As of the 2000s, the use of the term "racism" does not easily fall under a single definition.[1]
Racism - Wikipedia
it's way past time for the Israeli Jews to recognize that--there can be no peace without this.
Racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, which often results in discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity. As of the 2000s, the use of the term "racism" does not easily fall under a single definition.[1]
Racism - Wikipedia
Anyone who participates in terrorism, Jew or Palestinian, is a terrible person who needs to repent, and furthermore needs to be taken into custody, tried, and punished. That would include ALL of Hamas... & IDF snipers & racists minded illegal settlers who now live on the rubble of bulldozed Palestinian villages.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
As an individual Jew, I repent of my sins as I commit them. This is how I spiritually grow. But I'm not just an individual. I am a member of a people, and we sink or swim together. Thus we have seasons during the year where we repent together. Yom Kippur is a day of repentance, affliction, and atonement that is part of the Law given to us by God.
I never said Jews were better, not once, nor have I ever said that Jews should have an exalted status in Israel.
All I said is that the Palestinians need to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. The world has many, many Muslim countries, Christian countries, Atheist countries, Secular countries, Buddhist countries,and even a Hindu country with .a gazillion people. I think the world can tolerate one tiny Jewish country.
Yes, I agree. There is Jewish terrorism that goes on in the West Bank, and tries to subvert the peace process. The problem is, the UN condemns the Settlers, but not Hamas. It's a form of anti-Semitism.
I checked your sources & it does seem that you have a point.
UN Condemns Israel's 'Excessive Use of Force' in Gaza, Rejects Amendment Denouncing Hamas
General Assembly passed the resolution with 120 countries in favor and only 8 opposing. U.S. tried to add Hamas condemnation, but couldn't garner sufficient majority
https://tinyurl.com/y7ttayno
The Latest: US proposal to condemn Hamas fails in UN vote
Jun. 01, 2018
The Latest: US proposal to condemn Hamas fails in UN vote
Hamas (Arabic: حماس Ḥamās, an acronym of حركة المقاومة الاسلامية Ḥarakat al-Muqāwamah al-ʾIslāmiyyah Islamic Resistance Movement) is a Palestinian Sunni-Islamist fundamentalist organization. It has a social service wing, Dawah, and a military wing, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades.
Hamas - Wikipedia
IndigoChild5559, you are making some good points but you are not winning the war. Committing an atrocity because one was committed against you is still an atrocity. This endless cycle of killing and hate has to come to an end & that process has to begin somewhere.
I have a personal attachment to the Old Testament and the verses contained therein. This includes the verses where the Lord talked directly to the Israelite people. In this one-way discussion the Lord laid out directives (commandments) for them to follow and the blessing they would get if they followed His suggestions. I took these directives and compared them to historical events and found them wanting. Personally, I would like to see the Israeli people change their ways by embracing the stranger (Palestinian) and treat them as one of their own, just as the Lord instructed them to do. I truly believe this “example” would create a wave of peace across the middle east.
In closing I want the Israeli’s to embrace the Palestinians as one of their own, dismantle the illegal settlements and change the name of their country from “Israel” to “Palestine”.
I believe God is now judging them for the last time. If they do not ask God for forgiveness and repent for their past deeds; then all will be lost.
I need your help either by helping me or by correction my misguided view of them.
I must go--
wish you and yours a great day and beyond
bye
wish you and yours a great day and beyond
bye
Tumah
Veteran Member
The records were not kept in the Temple. Why would they be? They were kept by the individual families and passed down the generations. I met someone about 15 years ago who had a book of genealogy showing his lineage up to King David (although it wasn't all through males). Priests and Levites as well have always needed to know that they were Priests and Levites, because they (esepcially Priests) still have relevant Laws that affect them as such.
But even that aside, this problem is resolved in two ways: Someone who is capable of fulfilling every single other property, pretty much guarantees that he's David's descendant. No one else can/has successfully fulfilled them all to date. Along with the Messiah's arrival, we expect Elijah the Prophet to come and resolve many other problems. He - as a prophet, can definitely determine the lineage of the Messiah.
This's your non-Scriptural position. And it seems you're only bringing it because you can't recall what the original point you were trying to make was.
Why do you assume that we would exist altogether and why do you assume that only Adam would go through such a trial and not any later generation, had he succeeded?
Yes it is. And form the context, you can tell that it's a plea. There' no condition attached to the statement.
The plea was to listen to G-d and not serve false gods. Verse 13 is explaining that we didn't fulfill G-d's plea, not that we didn't fulfill the condition.
Verse 14 doesn't use the same word, although it has the same meaning.
That's right.
"And now, if only you would listen to My voice and keep my covenant and be for Me a treasure out of all peoples, for Mine is the whole land!".
This is a very straightforward request. G-d is begging us to listen to His commandments and be close to Him. Isn't that the love of a Father?
No, this translation is necessary because elsewhere in the Tanach we are told (repeatedly) that the covenant is eternal. The nature of an eternal covenant, is that it can't be broken. Therefore the verse here can't be a condition to the existence of the covenant. And this is something you see from every prophet from Moses until Malachi. Every passage of chastisement from the prophets comes with a passage of repentance or returning to G-d or something of that nature.
So it would be illogical to translate this passage as a condition to the existence of the covenant, considering.
As expressed earlier, this is only one (small) passage. There are plenty of other passages clearly describing the suffering that would happen to us for not following G-d - and all of those passages were fulfilled, multiple times. You seem to think that I am arguing that we can do whatever we want without reproof. That is not my argument and this is at least the second time that I'm clarifying this. We will be - and we have been- punished severely for not following G-d's Laws. What I am arguing, is that the punishment will never be the nullification of the covenant, it will always come in the form of some sort of physical destruction that will leave some remnant who will carry the torch onward. As we see clearly from history.
It appears that you are racist. You are looking at the entire Jewish people as though we are all the same. We're not, nor have we ever been. As a nation, that means looking at all of us together, we have more sinners among us than righteous and for this reason we have not yet been worthy of redemption. But there has always been a group of righteous Jews, just like the Prophets in their time and the Pharisees in theirs', who have held on to G-d's Laws and taught them to anyone among the nation who was willing to know. So you're equivalence between being disobedient and waiting for a specific Messiah is false.
On that same note, this is not our definition of the Messiah, this is what is written in the Tanach. What you really mean to say, is "but you will wait until someone comes along that is not the NT definition of the Messiah". Which is correct, because the NT is a false book. Had you not had the NT, your definition of the Messiah would be no different than ours. And that itself should make you suspicious of the NT.
This passage further proves my point. You forget that Moses was Jewish. G-d cannot remove the covenant that He already made eternally with the Jewish people. So He says here that Moses (and his family obviously, since Moses had no other children after this for it to have otherwise been fulfilled) would become the remnant of the Jewish people who would carry the torch to his following generations.
There is no such thing as every Jewish person in the world being unworthy of maintaining the covenant, just like in the case above. And so Jesus, or at least, the authors of the NT, were wrong about that as well.
No, what prompted G-d to keep forgiving us, is that He chose us to be the the people of His eternal covenant. There is nothing more than that.
Then it's not really good as an argument.
Background information to Biblical personalities and events, methods of Biblical exegesis, paths of connecting to G-d, etc. etc.
You have to learn to see graduation. Everything isn't black or white. In comparison to what we suffered in Christian and Islamic lands over the past 2,000 years, today were are experiencing an unprecedented degree of peace and prosperity. Similarly, in comparison to our degree of observance in Christian and Islamic lands, we are also experiencing unprecedented levels of observance. These two go hand in hand as laid out in Deut.You see Israel today as a place of peace and prosperity? A blessed land and a blessed people? I must be hearing the wrong news reports.
We are not yet perfect, nor is our peace and prosperity. We do not expect to become perfect until the advent of the Messiah, nor do we expect our peace and prosperity to be perfect until then.
Of course not.