God created evil

[waitasec]

I think I follow you, but don't you think enlightenment can be either the start of a quest or the result of one, or both?

i'm not so sure that it can be one or the other...

i'll use this for an example.
something that i find to be true.
you lost your keys and you searched everywhere for them because you are relying on where you think they may be, but it's when you stop looking for them...whola, there they are.

 

[BSM1]

i'm not so sure that it can be one or the other...

i'll use this for an example.
something that i find to be true.
you lost your keys and you searched everywhere for them because you are relying on where you think they may be, but it's when you stop looking for them...whola, there they are.

Just because you quit searching doesn't mean the keys are never found, as you're example points out. Should we refuse to accept the keys simply because we were no longer looking?

 

[waitasec]

Just because you quit searching doesn't mean the keys are never found, as you're example points out. Should we refuse to accept the keys simply because we were no longer looking?

well isn't that the plight of living? to find the keys that will open doors to a new understanding of things throughout our lives?

once the keys are recognized it is up to the individual to use them or not...ignorance is bliss..while willful ignorance is willful stupidity
perhaps that is what you mean.

 

[Thief]

well isn't that the plight of living? to find the keys that will open doors to a new understanding of things throughout our lives?

once the keys are recognized it is up to the individual to use them or not...ignorance is bliss..while willful ignorance is willful stupidity
perhaps that is what you mean.

One of the Apostles was given the keys to heaven.

Willful ignorance?.....an accusation?

 

[waitasec]

One of the Apostles was given the keys to heaven.

says who...?

Willful ignorance?.....an accusation?

for you maybe...

 

[Rocky S]

No. The better translation (given parallelism and counterposition) is:

I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe.
​

... as found in the JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh and the New Oxford Annotated Bible (NSRV). It's also interesting that the Catholic New Jerusalem Bible offers:

I form the light and I create the darkness,
I make well-being, and I create disaster
​

The Hebrew word 'ra' - here counterposed to 'shalom' - has various meanings and the preferable one depends heavily on style and context.

Thats good, 'ra' does mean like calamity or woe? That's what it gives for 'ra' in a lexicon I use. I think some translators put evil but that may be a bit off.

 

[BSM1]

well isn't that the plight of living? to find the keys that will open doors to a new understanding of things throughout our lives?

once the keys are recognized it is up to the individual to use them or not...ignorance is bliss..while willful ignorance is willful stupidity
perhaps that is what you mean.[/quo

If I understand what you mean I think we're on the same page.

 

[waitasec]

If I understand what you mean I think we're on the same page.

i think we are.

Just because you quit searching doesn't mean the keys are never found,

it's more like searching for answers in places you think the answers can be found...which is ultimately limiting ones search...iow, we have no choice but to find them
and if we can recognize them all the better

 

[BSM1]

it's more like searching for answers in places you think the answers can be found...which is ultimately limiting ones search...iow, we have no choice but to find them
and if we can recognize them all the better[/quote]

Like your key example. They were there and you wasn't until you were.

 

[waitasec]

Like your key example. They were there and you wasn't until you were.

i get that

 

[Thief]

And these digressions point out the source of evil?

 

[idav]

And these digressions point out the source of evil?

The source of good and evil is choice otherwise we'd be gods puppets.

 

[BSM1]

[The source of good and evil is choice otherwise we'd be gods puppets]


Agreed. And nothing is good or evil unless we as individuals or societies say it is. (If you want to have a little fun ask someone to tell you what's the difference between good and evil and watch their eyes glaze over.) According to Genesis the forbidden fruit was from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The knowledge of g & e is that not only can you decide what's good and what's evil, but you also can freely choose to do either. This, I believe, forced the Creator to step in and take a more active part in controlling what use to be his most innocent beings. Not only did A & E lose their moral innocence, but they simultaneously developed and lost their spiritual innocence.

 

[Thief]

[The source of good and evil is choice otherwise we'd be gods puppets]


Agreed. And nothing is good or evil unless we as individuals or societies say it is. (If you want to have a little fun ask someone to tell you what's the difference between good and evil and watch their eyes glaze over.) According to Genesis the forbidden fruit was from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The knowledge of g & e is that not only can you decide what's good and what's evil, but you also can freely choose to do either. This, I believe, forced the Creator to step in and take a more active part in controlling what use to be his most innocent beings. Not only did A & E lose their moral innocence, but they simultaneously developed and lost their spiritual innocence.

Man was never innocent....just ignorant.

You can't teach an animal to be moral.
The upgrade of body and mind...in the Garden Event...was needful.

The choice offered was to make certain the alteration had taken hold.

 

[waitasec]

Man was never innocent....just ignorant.

You can't teach an animal to be moral.
The upgrade of body and mind...in the Garden Event...was needful.

The choice offered was to make certain the alteration had taken hold.

ignorance is innocence...
can't say the same for willful ignorance though...which is what god intended...for shame!!! :tsk:

in·no·cence (n-sns)
n.
1. The state, quality, or virtue of being innocent, as:
a. Freedom from sin, moral wrong, or guilt through lack of knowledge of evil.
b. Guiltlessness of a specific legal crime or offense.
c. Freedom from guile, cunning, or deceit; simplicity or artlessness.
d. Lack of worldliness or sophistication; naiveté.
e. Lack of knowledge or understanding; ignorance.
f. Freedom from harmfulness; inoffensiveness.

innocence - definition of innocence by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

 

[Prophet]

All evil is a consequence of ignorance. Beings sin because they do not know any better. God sees us all as innocent children because this is what we truly are.

The distinction of willful ignorance does little to disturb this innocence in my view. Willful ignorance is a taught behavior arising from sinful mistreatment that you'll find is not innate to any creature that walks this planet.

 

[waitasec]

All evil is a consequence of ignorance. Beings sin because they do not know any better. God sees us all as innocent children because this is what we truly are.

The distinction of willful ignorance does little to disturb this innocence in my view. Willful ignorance is a taught behavior arising from sinful mistreatment that you'll find is not innate to any creature that walks this planet.

the term willful ignorance is an oxymoron...
one cannot not willfully not know that they are willfully choosing to not know

so in other words, sin is no biggy if done in ignorance...there is no evil intent.
however, willfully ignoring the knowledge is an evil intent

 

[Prophet]

the term willful ignorance is an oxymoron...
one cannot not willfully not know that they are willfully choosing to not know

so in other words, sin is no biggy if done in ignorance...there is no evil intent.
however, willfully ignoring the knowledge is an evil intent

Hah. What I was writing earlier was something to the effect that you can't be willfully ignorant on one level without being non-willfully ignorant on some higher level, but I prefer to use more concise wording and thought that was a bit wishy washy.

I'm not sure whether we agree or disagree, but I recognize some of what you're saying as true.

 

[waitasec]

Hah. What I was writing earlier was something to the effect that you can't be willfully ignorant on one level without being non-willfully ignorant on some higher level, but I prefer to use more concise wording and thought that was a bit wishy washy.

I'm not sure whether we agree or disagree, but I recognize some of what you're saying as true.

i think we are saying the same thing here



one can make a left turn
the other can make 3 right turns...
the end is the same result

 

[Thief]

ignorance is innocence...
can't say the same for willful ignorance though...which is what god intended...for shame!!! :tsk:

in·no·cence (n-sns)
n.
1. The state, quality, or virtue of being innocent, as:
a. Freedom from sin, moral wrong, or guilt through lack of knowledge of evil.
b. Guiltlessness of a specific legal crime or offense.
c. Freedom from guile, cunning, or deceit; simplicity or artlessness.
d. Lack of worldliness or sophistication; naiveté.
e. Lack of knowledge or understanding; ignorance.
f. Freedom from harmfulness; inoffensiveness.

innocence - definition of innocence by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Ignorance will not exempt responsibility.

Man was harmful to himself....still is.
Man has never been innocent.

Not having law might exempt the notion of sin.
It does not make you innocent.

When ignorant and harmful...you are still responsible.
An animal that does harm is put down.
Whether it knows it did wrong or not.