God, creation and humanity

[Autodidact]

Did your question exist before you asked it?

that's not the issue. The issue is not whether new things come into existence; they do so constantly. The issue is whether new matter/energy is created, or whether it is only transformed. In this universe which we can observe, it is never created, only transformed.

 

[Willamena]

Yes, but like the question, it came from what preceded it, not from nothing.

What preceded it was not question. There was no question; then there was a question. Something from nothing.

 

[Willamena]

that's not the issue. The issue is not whether new things come into existence; they do so constantly. The issue is whether new matter/energy is created, or whether it is only transformed. In this universe which we can observe, it is never created, only transformed.

Materialism concerns itself with that portion of all the things in the universe (matter/energy). I've no evidence that camanintx wants to approach this from a materialist stance (yet), so it may very well be to the issue at hand.

 

[camanintx]

What preceded it was not question. There was no question; then there was a question. Something from nothing.

Isn't that like saying ice comes from nothing because there was no ice in my glass of water before I put it in the freezer?

 

[Willamena]

Isn't that like saying ice comes from nothing because there was no ice in my glass of water before I put it in the freezer?

Ice has a form that we experience; water has such a form. We do not experience "freezing" or "melting". Freezing and melting are processes we have defined to explain an apparent transformation from water to ice and ice to water. For us, there is ice, and then there are drops on the ice, and then there are drops puddling under the (smaller) ice, and then there is water. Everything in between, the bits we don't get to see, we fill in the blanks. If it happens consistently, we deem it reasonable to assume. So skilled are we at the fill-in-the-blanks game that we've developed a whole method to test our blanks, sometimes on a massive scale, to see if they are reasonable to assume.

Go us!

 

[camanintx]

Ice has a form that we experience; water has such a form. We do not experience "freezing" or "melting". Freezing and melting are processes we have defined to explain an apparent transformation from water to ice and ice to water. For us, there is ice, and then there are drops on the ice, and then there are drops puddling under the (smaller) ice, and then there is water. Everything in between, the bits we don't get to see, we fill in the blanks. If it happens consistently, we deem it reasonable to assume. So skilled are we at the fill-in-the-blanks game that we've developed a whole method to test our blanks, sometimes on a massive scale, to see if they are reasonable to assume.

Go us!

And that explains how something comes from nothing how?

 

[Arlanbb]

Charity ~ I have one simple question on the biblical creation? When did the biblical creation happen on our earth? I want a simple time line. Example - Was it 3000 years ago or 30,000 years ago or what time? arlan

 

[Charity]

Charity ~ I have one simple question on the biblical creation? When did the biblical creation happen on our earth? I want a simple time line. Example - Was it 3000 years ago or 30,000 years ago or what time? arlan

Arlan this sounds like your delivering an untimatum when you say "I want a simple time line".....I really don't like to be delivered an ultimatum on anything, never did, and I never will....
I am a very honest person and I am the first to admit that I can't give you an exact date. There have been Scientists, Old World Creationists and many educated scholars who have studied this for years. They base their information working with different calendars like Julian Calendar, Hebrew Calendar and the Talmud. They base chronological and historical facts with dates and even work backward in their efforts to retrace and define exact times. Most estimates are as I understand based on actual measurements and calculations....

Any date that I give you is based on the opinion of others from their observation and findings. The time of actual creation has never impressed me to give a diddley squat as to when it happened, I just know it did....Historical events and bible connections and dates do interest me so therefore that is where I place most of my study time. Science is not an interest to me so you need to find someone who is skilled in that area to place your demand....

I did read where most creation scientists believe earth is less than 10,000 years old. Again that is a creations scientist. Not my estimate, because "I don't care"

 

[Arlanbb]

Charity ~ I didn't "demand" you answer my question on when creation might have happened. I was trying to find out what your thoughts were on the subject because you brought up the creation question. Sorry you miss understood and thank you for your answer of around 10,000 years ago for creation by other people, not your self.

You state that "the Bible does not tell us how the human race [was] actually created." When you read your bible did you miss Gen. 2:7 The Lord God formed man of the dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of Life and man became a living being.

You also asked what evidence do your assumptions rest that the biblical creation is false. There is lots of scientific evidence [you did want scientific evidence didn't you?] that prove the biblical creation has not happened in the last say 100,000 years. All you have to do is go to my thread on the age of the 52 Hawaiian Islands. The island of Midway is 27.7 million years old and the youngist of the 52 islands is the Big island only half a million years old. The glaciers on top of Greenland have been cored and found to be over 110,000 years old, the Himalayas are 40 to 50 million years old, the Alps are about 50 to 60 million years old and our Rockies are upwards of 100 million years old.

When a person fully understand the scientific age of the earth then they are not so prone to get hung up on myths and legends of a young biblical creation. Arlan

 

[Charity]

Arlan yes I did read Genesis, the scripture tells us what was used but it is up to our own interpretation as to how he formed Adam. It is difficult to think of dust forming into bones and organs and thousands of vessels, arteries, muscles and other intricate working mechanisms of the human body....It doesn't explain that does it? It's like watching a potter take the clay and watch each step as he molds it with his hands into a special designed creation, unique and hopefully flawless....

 

[Arlanbb]

Charity ~ You asked for some scientific evidence of why the biblical creation of less than 10,000 years ago didn't happen. I told you of the long age of the Hawaiian Island being formed [27,000,000 years] and the 110,000 year old glaciers along with the old age of the Rockies, Alps etc.[40,000 to 100,000 years old.] I'm sure all of us would like to hear how you would have all this evidence of a very long age world packed into less than 10,000 years?? Did you know that there were real people living on earth in what we call Israel over 11,000 yeras ago. They lived in Old Jericho. Bipeded people were living on earth for over 50,000 years before creationist think Adam and Eve lived here, if they did. This is just some of the Scientific Evidence again a young biblical creation. arlan

 

[darkendless]

Arlan this sounds like your delivering an untimatum when you say "I want a simple time line".....I really don't like to be delivered an ultimatum on anything, never did, and I never will....
I am a very honest person and I am the first to admit that I can't give you an exact date. There have been Scientists, Old World Creationists and many educated scholars who have studied this for years. They base their information working with different calendars like Julian Calendar, Hebrew Calendar and the Talmud. They base chronological and historical facts with dates and even work backward in their efforts to retrace and define exact times. Most estimates are as I understand based on actual measurements and calculations....

Any date that I give you is based on the opinion of others from their observation and findings. The time of actual creation has never impressed me to give a diddley squat as to when it happened, I just know it did....Historical events and bible connections and dates do interest me so therefore that is where I place most of my study time. Science is not an interest to me so you need to find someone who is skilled in that area to place your demand....

I did read where most creation scientists believe earth is less than 10,000 years old. Again that is a creations scientist. Not my estimate, because "I don't care"

The problem with creationism guesses is the fact that they're about 1000000 years different to scientific estimates. I've never heard a creation theory saying the earth is greater than 100000 years old. Thats a problem since conclusive scientific research proves that magnetic dipoles have flipped over the mileniums (source: Earth's Inconstant Magnetic Field) the last being 780,000 years ago. God needs to get his act together if he wasted 760000 years before creating us???

 

[Caladan]

Charity, you said:

There may be some genuinely profound and meaningful questions that are forever beyond the reach of science......Richard Dawkins

in early history (and prehistory) humans dealt with these questions through painting the answers to them with folklore and myths. science brings a new dimension , such as the use of experiment and observation. today "forever" is relative.
the fact that science still cannot miraculously provide ultimate answers to Everything does not mean we should settle for modern day (or ancient) folklore for answers.

 

[Arlanbb]

Caladan ~ Well Put. What part of Israel do you live in? I Love your country and the people. been there twice on a dig in the Jordon Valley just south of the Galiliee sea. arlan

 

[Charity]

Caladan ~ Well Put. What part of Israel do you live in? I Love your country and the people. been there twice on a dig in the Jordon Valley just south of the Galiliee sea. arlan

Please tell more about the dig, sounds interesting especially the location.

 

[Arlanbb]

CHARITY ~ IN ALL MY 76 YEARS, MY 5 WEEKS IN 97 AND 99 WAS [WHY IS THIS ALL CAPS?] ONE OF MY TOP 3 TRIPS EVER. EVERYONE THAT IS INTERESTED IN THE HISTORY OF ISRAEL NEEDS TO GO ON AN ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIG. IF I HAD THE MONEY I WOULD GO BACK EVERY OTHER SUMMER. I CAN'T EXPLAIN THE FEELING OF FINDING OBJECTS THAT WERE MADE BY SOMEONES HANDS THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO. WE WERE DIGGING IN THE TIME FRAME OF 6000 BC. OR 8000 YEARS AGO. ON ONE OF THE MUD WALLS [ I was in caps lock sorry ] I found a thumb impression in a mud ball of someone that was alive 8000 years ago. They had build a small city where about 3000 people could live which lasted for over 600 years then died out. There are many digs going on in Isreal ever summer, usually from 5am to 1pm, when the dry 100 deg heat comes along, then you have the rest of the day to play around. arlan

 

[Caladan]

Arlan

I live in central Israel, near Tel Aviv.
thank you very much for your feedback. I've got to share a dig with students from the US and Canada before, we excavated Philistine, Egyptian and Canaanite findings.
in a dig before I also excavated Ottoman, Crusaders, early Arab, Byzantine, Roman, and even got to prehistoric finds.
Im actually about to start my last year of an archaeology degree. so it was great reading your posts, and read how you enjoyed your excavations.
Where did you visit us from?

 

[Charity]

Arlan

I live in central Israel, near Tel Aviv.
thank you very much for your feedback. I've got to share a dig with students from the US and Canada before, we excavated Philistine, Egyptian and Canaanite findings.
in a dig before I also excavated Ottoman, Crusaders, early Arab, Byzantine, Roman, and even got to prehistoric finds.
Im actually about to start my last year of an archaeology degree. so it was great reading your posts, and read how you enjoyed your excavations.
Where did you visit us from?

I guess there has to be some clearance given to do a dig right? How is that handled? It really sounds fascinating.....

 

[Caladan]

Charity,

I took part in excavations of the Israel Antiquities Authority which normally holds salvage excavations, and Tel Aviv University archaeology department which holds seasonal excavations.

 

[Arlanbb]

CALADAN ~ I came all the way from Salem OR. I wrote 10 letters to 10 different digs on the first of Feb. of 97 and received back only one reply inviting me to excavate at Kibbutz Sha'ar Hagolan. The finding of some 300 art objects at the site makes it the most important centre of prehistoric art in Israel and in the world. We stayed in a very nice B&B and had a very large pool to cool off in after the days dig. I wish I had first done this when I was much younger, like you. Sounds like you have been on a few digs. Dr. Yosef Garfinkel of the Hebrew Univ. was our director. He put out a book on the dig "The Goddess of Sha'ar Hagolan" in 04. arlan