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God Debate

Mike182

Flaming Queer
gtrsgrls said:
I didn't read all of your post,I only read the first part.But that's got to be the gayest argument in the world.You have yet to prove that there isn't a God.Peace out!:banghead3
who was this even aimed at??? my post was god orientated, not homosexually orientated :sarcastic

:banghead3


Pandamonk said:
NO:banghead3Aghh, stop trying to play with my words.
<ducks and covers under the table> sorry, im not purposfully trying to hurt your head, but mine hurts - let me try again to understand
I'm not saying we understand God in every way. I'm saying, i can think of a greater God than the one you mention, it would be one which is infinite and yet we can understand,
ok, i think i understand what you are saying - because
the human mind cannot conceive a quality that is infinite, but who's fault is that? God's! So if he had made our minds capable of conceiving a quality that is infinite, without making us infinite, it would be better because there would be no conflict between us, and because that would have been better than what is it now, the being/God i can conceive of would be greater than the one you mentioned!
so, god is infinite, and we cannot understand it because we cannot understand infinity, but this is Gods fault, because God could let us understand infinity if he wanted too, and then if he did let us understand infinity, we would all understand God, yet he would still be infinite and we would not

understand?
i think so

but, saying this is to say God (perfect and infinite being) made a mistake when creating us by forgetting to allow us to concieve of infinite quantities

either that, or, it was his intention to not let us grasp these concepts

i believe that as a reward for faith in God even when we don't understand him, we will recieve these concepts when we reach heaven, when we see all of God's glory

to me, it would kinda take the fun out of it!

C_P
 

pandamonk

Active Member
corrupt_priest said:
who was this even aimed at??? my post was god orientated, not homosexually orientated :sarcastic

:banghead3


<ducks and covers under the table> sorry, im not purposfully trying to hurt your head, but mine hurts - let me try again to understand
ok, i think i understand what you are saying - because
so, god is infinite, and we cannot understand it because we cannot understand infinity, but this is Gods fault, because God could let us understand infinity if he wanted too, and then if he did let us understand infinity, we would all understand God, yet he would still be infinite and we would not

i think so

but, saying this is to say God (perfect and infinite being) made a mistake when creating us by forgetting to allow us to concieve of infinite quantities

either that, or, it was his intention to not let us grasp these concepts

i believe that as a reward for faith in God even when we don't understand him, we will recieve these concepts when we reach heaven, when we see all of God's glory

to me, it would kinda take the fun out of it!

C_P
Thank you, you understand me. Heehee sorry for the madness in that post:eek:, lol, i was just getting rather annoyed because, to me, it seemed very easy to understand. Yes, he made a mistake and therefore is not perfect, or intended for us not to know. Which causes conflict, and shows he's not perfect because he would've known it would happen and he still let it happen. Or he did not know it would happen, and does not have infinite knowledge. I wasn't actually meaning this, trying to prove he is not a god, i was trying to show that i could think of a being greater than the god you told me about. Sorry this seems quite confusing, even to me, but i could not think of a better way to word it, lol.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
pandamonk said:
Thank you, you understand me. Heehee sorry for the madness in that post:eek:, lol, i was just getting rather annoyed because, to me, it seemed very easy to understand. Yes, he made a mistake and therefore is not perfect, or intended for us not to know. Which causes conflict, and shows he's not perfect because he would've known it would happen and he still let it happen. Or he did not know it would happen, and does not have infinite knowledge. I wasn't actually meaning this, trying to prove he is not a god, i was trying to show that i could think of a being greater than the god you told me about. Sorry this seems quite confusing, even to me, but i could not think of a better way to word it, lol.
"Yes, he made a mistake and therefore is not perfect..." What mistake?
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
michel said:
"Yes, he made a mistake and therefore is not perfect..." What mistake?
ooooh, don't start that again :sarcastic


pandamonk said:
Thank you, you understand me. Heehee sorry for the madness in that post, lol, i was just getting rather annoyed because, to me, it seemed very easy to understand. Yes, he made a mistake and therefore is not perfect, or intended for us not to know. Which causes conflict, and shows he's not perfect because he would've known it would happen and he still let it happen. Or he did not know it would happen, and does not have infinite knowledge. I wasn't actually meaning this, trying to prove he is not a god, i was trying to show that i could think of a being greater than the god you told me about. Sorry this seems quite confusing, even to me, but i could not think of a better way to word it, lol.
well, this is a very logical paradox, but i trust God did know what he was doing, and was leaving some of the surprise for when we finally meet him

i have looked at a lot of paradox's like this, and still see the way i view God as being the best for my personal faith :D

however, i suppose this doesn't actually clarify if God exists or not huh :eek:

i think this one is best sumed up as: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't."
"Ah, says God, and promptly vanishes in a poof of logic"


P.S. you can count on either red dwarf, monty python, or hitchhiker's guide ot the galaxy for almost ANY theological argument :biglaugh:
 

pandamonk

Active Member
michel said:
"Yes, he made a mistake and therefore is not perfect..." What mistake?
"made a mistake when creating us by forgetting to allow us to concieve of infinite quantities"therefore causing conflict between us, which an all-loving god cannot do
 

pandamonk

Active Member
corrupt_priest said:
ooooh, don't start that again :sarcastic


well, this is a very logical paradox, but i trust God did know what he was doing, and was leaving some of the surprise for when we finally meet him

i have looked at a lot of paradox's like this, and still see the way i view God as being the best for my personal faith :D

however, i suppose this doesn't actually clarify if God exists or not huh :eek:

i think this one is best sumed up as: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't."
"Ah, says God, and promptly vanishes in a poof of logic"


P.S. you can count on either red dwarf, monty python, or hitchhiker's guide ot the galaxy for almost ANY theological argument :biglaugh:
But what about the people who never meet him? Sometimes not by their own choice, ie. a new born baby, a mentally handicapped person, etc. It's a bit unfair on them that because of God they cannot get to heaven and have the surprize, but also suffer in hell, if that's what you believe. Lol, good ol' [size=-1]Douglas Adams.[/size]
 

saidur611

New Member
Hello Dear May i participate in ur debate and requesting u all to read the article below which might answer some of your questions. If it would satisfiy then I wish Allah will show u to find out the right path. may Allah bless all of us.

From the moment man opens his eyes to this world a great order surrounds him. He needs oxygen to survive. It is interesting that the atmosphere of the planet on which he lives provides more than just the adequate amount of oxygen he needs. This way, he breathes without difficulty. For the existence of life on this planet, the existence of a source of heat is essential. In response to this need, the sun is located just at the right distance to emit just the exact amount of heat and energy man needs. Man needs nourishment to survive. Every corner of the world abounds in astonishingly diversified provisions. Likewise, man needs water. Surprisingly, three-fourths of the planet is covered with water. Man needs shelter, and in this world, there is land on which it is suitable to build and all sorts of materials to make shelters.

These are only a few among billions of details making life possible on earth. In brief, man lives on a planet perfectly designed for his survival. This is certainly a planet "created for human beings".

A person's interpretation of the world rests on "acquired methods of thought." That is, he thinks in the way he has been taught, or, less kindly, the way in which he is indoctrinated. Under this misguidance, he often dismisses all the aforementioned as "trivial realities." However, if he does not side-step the matter, and start questioning the conditions making our existence possible, he will surely step out of the boundaries of habitual thinking and start to think:

How does the atmosphere serve as a protective ceiling for the earth?

How does each one of the billions of cells in the human body know and perform its individual tasks?

How does this extraordinary ecological balance exist on earth?

A person seeking answers to these questions surely proceeds on the right path. He does not remain insensitive to things happening around him, and doesn't plead ignorance about the extraordinary nature of the world. A person who asks questions, who reflects on and gives answers to these questions will realize that on every inch of the planet, a plan and an order reigns:

How did the flawless order in the whole universe come into being?

Who provided the delicate balances in the world?

How did living beings, incredibly diversified in nature, emerge?

Keeping oneself occupied with relentless research to answer these questions results in a clear awareness that everything in the universe, its order, each living being and structure is a component of a plan, a product of design. Every detail, the excellent structure of an insect's wing, the system enabling a tree to carry tons of water to its topmost branches, the order of planets, and the ratio of gases in the atmosphere, are all unique examples of perfection.

In every detail of the infinitely varied world, man finds his Creator. God, the owner of everything in the whole universe, introduces Himself to man through the flawless design of His creation. Everything surrounding us, the birds in flight, our beating hearts, the birth of a child or the existence of the sun in the sky, manifest the power of God and His creation. And what man must do is to understand this fact.

These purposes owe their existence to the fact that everything has been created. An intelligent person notices that plan, design and wisdom exist in every detail of the infinitely varied world. This draws him to recognition of the Creator.

So you never plead ignorance that all living beings, living or non-living, show the existence and greatness of God. Look at things around you and strive to show appreciation in the best manner for the eternal greatness of God.

The existence of God is OBVIOUS. Ignoring it would only be the beginning of the greatest damage we could ever do to ourselves. That is simply because God is in no need of anything. He is the One Who shows His greatness in all things and in all ways. God is the owner of everything, from the heavens to the earth. We learn the attributes of God from the Qur'an:

God! There is no god but Him, the Living, the Self-Sustaining. He is not subject to drowsiness or sleep. Everything in the heavens and the earth belongs to Him. Who can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them but they cannot grasp any of His knowledge save what He wills. His Footstool encompasses the heavens and the earth and their preservation does not tire Him. He is the Most High, the Magnificent. (
Surat al-Baqarah: 255)











A System Planned in Its Every Detail




Breathing, eating, walking, etc, are very natural human functions. But most people do not think how these basic actions take place. For example, when you eat a fruit, you do not think how it will be made useful to your body. The only thing on your mind is eating a healthy meal; at the same time, your body is involved in extremely detailed processes unimaginable to you in order to make this meal a health-giving thing.

The digestive system where these detailed processes take place starts to function as soon as a piece of food is taken into the mouth. Being involved in the system right at the outset, the saliva wets the food and helps it to be ground by the teeth and slide down the oesophagus.

The oesophagus helps the food be transported to the stomach where a perfect balance is at work. Here, the food is digested by the hydrochloric acid present in the stomach. This acid is so strong that it has the capacity to dissolve not only the food but also the stomach walls. Of course, such a flaw is not permitted in this perfect system. A secretion called mucus which is secreted during digestion covers all the walls of the stomach and provides a perfect protection against the destructive effect of the hydrochloric acid. Thus the stomach is prevented from destroying itself.

The point that deserves attention here is that evolution can by no means explain the system briefly summarised earlier. Evolution maintains that today's complex organisms have evolved from primitive beings by the gradual accumulation of small structural changes. However, as stated clearly, the system in the stomach could in no way have been formed step by step. The absence of even one factor would bring about the death of the organism.

When food is received into the stomach, the gastric juices acquire the ability to break down food as a result of a series of chemical changes. Now, imagine a living being in the so-called evolutionary process in whose body such a planned chemical transformation is not possible. This living being, unable to acquire this ability, would not be able to digest the food it ate and would starve to death with an undigested mass of food in its stomach.

In addition, during the secretion of this dissolving acid, the stomach walls simultaneously have to produce the secretion called mucus. Otherwise, the acid in the stomach would destroy the stomach. Therefore, in order for life to continue, the stomach must secrete both fluids (acid and mucus) at the same time. This shows that not a step-by-step coincidental evolution but a conscious creation with all its systems must, in effect, have been at work.

What all this shows is that the human body resembles a huge factory made up of many small machines that work together in perfect harmony. Just as all factories have a designer, an engineer and a planner, the human body has an "Exalted Creator".






 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
a very offective article

did you write it yourself? i kinda have to assume you did unless you reference it :eek:
 

mr.guy

crapsack
saidur611 said:
A person's interpretation of the world rests on "acquired methods of thought." That is, he thinks in the way he has been taught, or, less kindly, the way in which he is indoctrinated. Under this misguidance, he often dismisses all the aforementioned as "trivial realities."

Do you ever wonder if you're among the misguided?

saidur611 said:
However, if he does not side-step the matter, and start questioning the conditions making our existence possible, he will surely step out of the boundaries of habitual thinking and start to think.
When do you intend to take this methodology up?

saidur611 said:
A person who asks questions, who reflects on and gives answers to these questions will realize that on every inch of the planet, a plan and an order reigns
So questioning can only be legitamate if every answer is the same monosyllable? (you can answer this with one)

saidur611 said:
An intelligent person notices that plan, design and wisdom exist in every detail of the infinitely varied world. This draws him to recognition of the Creator.
Gollee, cleatus! i thinks he's-a-callin' us stupid!

saidur611 said:
That is simply because God is in no need of anything.
Does he need you to stick up for him as well? If his existence is undeniably obvious, what need has god to have you explain it to anybody in the first place?

saidur611 said:
Who can intercede with Him except by His permission?

How's the old saying go? "Silence is consent"? Can we assume that an existing god fully approves of everything, regardless of what those who do his speaking for him say?



saidur611 said:
What all this shows is that the human body resembles a huge factory made up of many small machines that work together in perfect harmony. Just as all factories have a designer, an engineer and a planner, the human body has an "Exalted Creator"
I fail to see how. Must be that intellectual handicap you mentioned earlier. I'll have to take up my warranty with this creator.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
From the moment man opens his eyes to this world a great order surrounds him. He needs oxygen to survive. It is interesting that the atmosphere of the planet on which he lives provides more than just the adequate amount of oxygen he needs. This way, he breathes without difficulty.
Not exactly. Oxygen is not plentiful because it is what we need in order to survive. We survive because oxygen is plentiful, do you understand? If our atmosphere contained sulfur instead of oxygen, we might still be here--the only difference would be that we would breathe sulfur. Even in an instance like that, we would still have people saying things like, "Isn't it amazing that there is just enough sulfur to support life..."

For the existence of life on this planet, the existence of a source of heat is essential. In response to this need, the sun is located just at the right distance to emit just the exact amount of heat and energy man needs.
Again, no. Do away with your, "In response to this need," sort of talk. The earth and universe came before all of us, remember? There were no needs to "respond" to.

However, if he does not side-step the matter, and start questioning the conditions making our existence possible, he will surely step out of the boundaries of habitual thinking and start to think:

How does the atmosphere serve as a protective ceiling for the earth?

How does each one of the billions of cells in the human body know and perform its individual tasks?

How does this extraordinary ecological balance exist on earth?
And thus, the first scientist was born.

The existence of God is OBVIOUS.
No, it is not. "God" is simply a vague idea that you tack onto the end of every scientific discovery. "Obvious" is something that all people can detect with their 5 senses and agree on without a doubt.

This acid is so strong that it has the capacity to dissolve not only the food but also the stomach walls. Of course, such a flaw is not permitted in this perfect system.
Actually it is. Gastric Reflux disease is one example.

However, as stated clearly, the system in the stomach could in no way have been formed step by step. The absence of even one factor would bring about the death of the organism.
Exactly! That's called natural selection: those with faulty stomachs would die, while those with effective ones would live and reproduce! Obviously, evolution can explain it perfectly. You fail to state how evolution is a faulty mechanism for the emergence of modern stomachs.

What all this shows is that the human body resembles a huge factory made up of many small machines that work together in perfect harmony. Just as all factories have a designer, an engineer and a planner, the human body has an "Exalted Creator".
Oy veh. Is this a watch factory, by chance?
 

pandamonk

Active Member
Aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ****e, sorry for my lanuage. I'm so annoyed, i just spent about 4 hours writing a reply to saidur611 it was turning out really well, and, i feel, i was making excellent points. I was nearing the end when i pressed backspace to delete something and instead of deleting it went back a page, and i lost everything, i'm sooooooo annoyed, i feel like crying.
 

pandamonk

Active Member
I think the designers of this site should try and change it, so if you accidently go back a page to don't lose everything. That is not the first time that has happened to me, and I'm sure it wont be the last. I'm sure it has happened to everyone here. If not, lucky you, lol. I really need to learn to save what im writing, but i get so into it, that i forget.:mad::banghead3
 

Aqualung

Tasty
pandamonk said:
Aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ****e, sorry for my lanuage. I'm so annoyed, i just spent about 4 hours writing a reply to saidur611 it was turning out really well, and, i feel, i was making excellent points. I was nearing the end when i pressed backspace to delete something and instead of deleting it went back a page, and i lost everything, i'm sooooooo annoyed, i feel like crying.
Oh, man, I feel ya. That sucks really, really bad. I hate it so bad when that happens. But anyway, were you going to pick one facet for us to debate?
 

Merlin

Active Member
corrupt_priest said:
but, saying this is to say God (perfect and infinite being) made a mistake when creating us by forgetting to allow us to concieve of infinite quantities C_P
Why do people keep trying to find logic in religion? It will be better if we searched for purpose.
 

pandamonk

Active Member
Merlin said:
Why do people keep trying to find logic in religion? It will be better if we searched for purpose.
But if religion does not have logic then it does not fit in our world.
 

pandamonk

Active Member
Aqualung said:
Oh, man, I feel ya. That sucks really, really bad. I hate it so bad when that happens. But anyway, were you going to pick one facet for us to debate?
Emm what was the last argument we were debating, and we will try to get to a conclusion?
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Let's just do this one:
pandamonk said:
Perfection vs creation argument

Version 1
1. If God exists, then he is perfect.
2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe
3. A perfect being can have no needs or wants
4. If any being created the universe, then it must have had some need or want to do so
5. Therefore, it is impossible for a perfect being to be the creator of the universe (from 3 and 4)
6.Hence, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5)"
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Here was my argument. Let's just go from there.
Aqualung said:
pandamonk said:
Perfection vs creation argument

Version 1
1. If God exists, then he is perfect.
okay.
pandamonk said:
2. If God exists he is the creator of the universe
Well, Jesus was the actual "creator" of the universe, but he did it under God's direction.
pandamonk said:
3. If a being is perfect, then whatever he creates must be perfect
Not true. While it may not be perfect to your standards, it was exactly what was necessary to fulfill his wants (see previous post to find out what his wants are.) He coudn't have a "perfect" universe to do that, but "perfection" is rather subjective. It was perfect for what he wanted to accomplish.
Okay. Let's go from there.
 
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