God Debate

michel · Oct 5, 2005

Merlin said:
I thought the whole point of religion was to be about the next world.

Ouch! Religion is not just about the next world; it is probably more applicable (in the sense of our interaction) to this world; think about it .........

pandamonk · Oct 5, 2005

Aqualung said:
Not true. While it may not be perfect to your standards, it was exactly what was necessary to fulfill his wants (see previous post to find out what his wants are.) He coudn't have a "perfect" universe to do that, but "perfection" is rather subjective. It was perfect for what he wanted to accomplish.

Before we answer this question, we need to answer the one before it, if we have not already done so, i can't remember, lol.

Pandamonk said:
Version 1
1. If God exists, then he is perfect.
2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe
3. A perfect being can have no needs or wants
4. If any being created the universe, then it must have had some need or want to do so
5. Therefore, it is impossible for a perfect being to be the creator of the universe (from 3 and 4)
6.Hence, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5)"

pandamonk · Oct 5, 2005

Merlin said:
I thought the whole point of religion was to be about the next world.

I did not word what i said right. I meant "if religion does not have logic then it does not fit in our way of thinking" or something like that.

Aqualung · Oct 5, 2005

pandamonk said:
Before we answer this question, we need to answer the one before it, if we have not already done so, i can't remember, lol.

Gosh, what was the question before it? :biglaugh: Let's just start over.

pandamonk · Oct 5, 2005

Aqualung said:
Gosh, what was the question before it? :biglaugh: Let's just start over.

Lol, i quoted the one before, which was, infact, the first argument, i think.

Aqualung · Oct 5, 2005

Okay. If god exists then he is perfect. But what is a perfect being? A perfect being cannot have wants, you say. Why? I think a perfect being can have wants. What is it about perfection that precludes wants?

pandamonk · Oct 5, 2005

Aqualung said:
Okay. If god exists then he is perfect. But what is a perfect being? A perfect being cannot have wants, you say. Why? I think a perfect being can have wants. What is it about perfection that precludes wants?

A perfect being cannot have wants because it has the means to fulfil those wants. As soon as it wanted, the want would be fulfilled, in no time. So there is no time, or need, for the want. It's hard to explain, and to comprehend. I hope you understand what i mean. Also, a perfect being is un-changing. You can't get better than the best. God cannot want something, because that means, whatever was there before was not perfect. But he made it, and he cannot make anything that is not perfect. He is too perfect not to make perfection, lol.

Mike182 · Oct 5, 2005

pandamonk said:
A perfect being cannot have wants because it has the means to fulfil those wants. As soon as it wanted, the want would be fulfilled, in no time. So there is no time, or need, for the want. It's hard to explain, and to comprehend. I hope you understand what i mean. Also, a perfect being is un-changing. You can't get better than the best. God cannot want something, because that means, whatever was there before was not perfect. But he made it, and he cannot make anything that is not perfect. He is too perfect not to make perfection, lol.

i think i understand this line of argument

a perfect being may still want "things", but the fact that the being is perfect means it can "have" these "things" as soon as it wants them

ok, that makes sense

so, if the perfect being created the universe, and then us, and now wants all of us to be happy, but we are not ................ this would mean that either the perfect being doesn't exist, or, we will be parfectly happy later on, we just do not realise it in this human state of mind - thus the perfect being's want for us to be happy is satisfied - just at a later date (however, time does nto affect a perfect being, so if it waits two seconds of a hundred years, it matters not)

C_P

pandamonk · Oct 5, 2005

corrupt_priest said:
i think i understand this line of argument

a perfect being may still want "things", but the fact that the being is perfect means it can "have" these "things" as soon as it wants them

ok, that makes sense

so, if the perfect being created the universe, and then us, and now wants all of us to be happy, but we are not ................ this would mean that either the perfect being doesn't exist, or, we will be parfectly happy later on, we just do not realise it in this human state of mind - thus the perfect being's want for us to be happy is satisfied - just at a later date (however, time does nto affect a perfect being, so if it waits two seconds of a hundred years, it matters not)

C_P

I'm glad you understood me. Now it's my turn to be confused, lol. What if you are never happy though? A perfect being does not get what it wants, but that is impossible. But he cannot affect free will, so he cannot always get what he wants, so cannot be perfect and cannot exist, because he gave us free will, if he existed in the first place. It's like "the hitchhikers' guide to the galaxy", with the bable fish.

Aqualung · Oct 5, 2005

pandamonk said:
A perfect being cannot have wants because it has the means to fulfil those wants. As soon as it wanted, the want would be fulfilled, in no time. So there is no time, or need, for the want. It's hard to explain, and to comprehend. I hope you understand what i mean. Also, a perfect being is un-changing. You can't get better than the best. God cannot want something, because that means, whatever was there before was not perfect. But he made it, and he cannot make anything that is not perfect. He is too perfect not to make perfection, lol.

Okay. I understand what you mean. If you say that a perfect being cannot have wants, then God is not perfect. but why does he need to be perfect by that deffinition to still be god?

pandamonk · Oct 5, 2005

Aqualung said:
Okay. I understand what you mean. If you say that a perfect being cannot have wants, then God is not perfect. but why does he need to be perfect by that deffinition to still be god?

Are you saying God is not perfect? The definition of God is that he is perfect(according to most people). It's not me you need to be asking "why does he need to be perfect" to. Maybe start up a new thread about that?

I'm sure, throughout the bible, there are many occasions where God is said to be perfect.

Aqualung · Oct 5, 2005

Yes, he's said to be perfect. But a perfect being can have wants. These wants are cause by the imperfection of others, not his imperfection.

Merlin · Oct 6, 2005

michel said:
Ouch! Religion is not just about the next world; it is probably more applicable (in the sense of our interaction) to this world; think about it .........

Actually, Michel, I do not agree. We have, in most faiths, overlaid God's purpose for us with a huge amount of social engineering requirements. Yes, it is important for us to help people, but that is not related to fulfilling God's purpose. I will go further, I actually think that where we are persuaded that doing good works is a route to heaven, it distracts us from our real task.

In the same way (to be even more controversial) some people are persuaded that attending services in the correct building, having the right hands laid on them, and chanting the correct rituals, is all that is necessary.

Finding communion with God is a deeply personal and introspective lifetime's task. Surely, helping others and attending uplifting services are good 'visual aids', but the task is left to each of you to solve yourselves.

Sadly, it is just not that easy.

Merlin · Oct 6, 2005

Aqualung said:
Okay. I understand what you mean. If you say that a perfect being cannot have wants, then God is not perfect. but why does he need to be perfect by that deffinition to still be god?

Good question. Does God need to be perfect, omnipotent, etc, to be God? Maybe we should have a thread on this one

Bennettresearch · Oct 6, 2005

pandamonk said:
Where do think my definitions came from? You do know that humans have great imaginations, don't you? Maybe your "personal experience" was of your imagination, like "outer body experiences", read here. Why was it "a pain in the #%&"? Because they did not blindly follow your beliefs, because you, or others, said so? Who needs an alternative?

You really stepped in it here. You, as a non believer, are quoting the Bible as fact, not me. Imagination? You haven't lived long enough to know how far I have gone in analyzing this subject. Accusing me of imagining it is nothing short of throwing out insults instead of a good argument. As far as these people went, I was not trying to convince them of anything, they thought they know too much about it already. Yet another bad assumption and very insulting. I wasn't religious at the time, I grew up with atheists. Who needs an alternative? Someone who is challenging the subject does. If you are content to live in nothingness, fine. But to try and dismiss another persons experience, that you yourself has not experienced, as delusional, is supremely arrogant. I too can doubt your existence. You may be just a maleficious computer program that was dreamed up by an evil scientist.

Bennettresearch · Oct 6, 2005

Aqualung said:
Okay. I understand what you mean. If you say that a perfect being cannot have wants, then God is not perfect. but why does he need to be perfect by that deffinition to still be god?

Hi Aqualung,

I agree. Perfect is a relative term. How does one even define perfect? Maybe to us God would be perfect, because we are so imperfect, but on God's level, there could be imperfections there as well. To define God as perfect and unchanging is an archaic notion, but vehemently defended by of all people Pandamonk. I am most convinced that this was a justification by the writers of scripture to represent the word of God as the absolute truth. Withstanding the test of time and unchanging in that respect. The truth shall always be the truth so to speak.

pandamonk · Oct 6, 2005

Aqualung said:
Yes, he's said to be perfect. But a perfect being can have wants. These wants are cause by the imperfection of others, not his imperfection.

But the imperfection in others are caused by his imperfection, because he made them.

pandamonk · Oct 6, 2005

Bennettresearch said:
You really stepped in it here. You, as a non believer, are quoting the Bible as fact, not me. Imagination? You haven't lived long enough to know how far I have gone in analyzing this subject. Accusing me of imagining it is nothing short of throwing out insults instead of a good argument. As far as these people went, I was not trying to convince them of anything, they thought they know too much about it already. Yet another bad assumption and very insulting. I wasn't religious at the time, I grew up with atheists. Who needs an alternative? Someone who is challenging the subject does. If you are content to live in nothingness, fine. But to try and dismiss another persons experience, that you yourself has not experienced, as delusional, is supremely arrogant. I too can doubt your existence. You may be just a maleficious computer program that was dreamed up by an evil scientist.

I am not quoting the bible as fact. I am quoting it, to show you where I got the, Christian, definition of God(from the Christian "holy book").I never accused, i said, maybe, or possibly. An assumption by you this time, that if there is no afterlife, you are living in nothingness. If there is no afterlife, this is all you've got, so this is everythingness. I could well be, but the thing is, i could prove myself to you. God cannot.

Aqualung · Oct 6, 2005

pandamonk said:
But the imperfection in others are caused by his imperfection, because he made them.

Depends how you look at it. No matter how "perfect," I don't think it's possible for God to have just created us perfect in the first place. No matter how great a dog (even if it's a pitbull, the greatest dogs around) it wouldn't be able to have anything other than puppies. Dogs can't have dogs. They have to start somewhere. Does that make god imperfect? If so, who cares? It doesn't change how much power he has, or the fact that he created us, and loves us.

pandamonk · Oct 6, 2005

Aqualung said:
Depends how you look at it. No matter how "perfect," I don't think it's possible for God to have just created us perfect in the first place. No matter how great a dog (even if it's a pitbull, the greatest dogs around) it wouldn't be able to have anything other than puppies. Dogs can't have dogs. They have to start somewhere. Does that make god imperfect? If so, who cares? It doesn't change how much power he has, or the fact that he created us, and loves us.

I think it does make him imperfect, because he cannot do something, so has a blemish, so i can think of greater. This does matter because it does change how much power he has. He cannot do something so does not have infinite power, so there is a limit. So God is not perfect and is not omnipotent? If you look at the bible, for much of it, he seems un-loving also. What is he then?:sarcastic

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