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God did it

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Objective as in "objective reality" and subjective as in "subjective opinions" are adjectives, but you are using them as nouns. So yours is a nonsensical statement with no meaning.

So I can only repeat myself: there is absolutely no problem with objective reality bringing forth beings capable of subjective thought.

Case in point.... biological reproduction. How reproduction works, the process of biological reproduction, is an objective process. That is to say, how it works is distinct from human opinion concerning how it works. It works the way it works, regardless what humans believe about it.

Yet the result is a being capable of subjective thought.

So there you go... an objective process that brings forth a subjective being.

He shoots, he scores.....



Are you asking random irrelevant questions again?

So reality has in part subjective thoughts and feelings in it and humans use those to influence each other and change the thinking in other humans, just as you are doing?
Or as I am trying to with you? Is this thread a part of reality and are we trying to influence each other about what reality is?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
You act as if you can observe the purpose of life using science.

Why are you under the impression that life has a purpose?

Individuals can live their lives and try to achieve a purpose. Even many animals can. That is not the same as life having a purpose.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Why are you under the impression that life has a purpose?

Individuals can live their lives and try to achieve a purpose. Even many animals can. That is not the same as life having a purpose.

Correct, I used bad language. Thanks for pointing it out. Though e.g. Ayn Rand tried to do it. But in practice it is subjective and you can't use only reason, logic and evidence on it. That was my actual point.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
but by definition:

"Encounters with a god, the numinous, past lives, the supernatural, superstitions like witchcraft, Christian/Jewish/Muslim prayer and 1,000 other things we can name have this in common: THEY THOROUGHLY ON THEIR FACE REPUDIATE MATERIALISM AND ARE NEAR UNIVERSAL AMONG HUMAN KIND."

By definition? Where did you get that definition?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
  • You have no authority to talk about science. You don't believe in science.
  • What is timelight?
  • Are you saying that God spent eternity making angels and heaven? If that is that case, why do people say "God needed another angel in heaven" when a child dies?

What is that supposed to mean, "I don't believe in science"? How rude. I not only trust science, I try to apply the scientific method to theology. Science rules! How dare you?

Stating facts is not being rude.

You do not believe in the Theory of Evolution. Don't try to wriggle by saying you believe in Microevolution. That's not the same thing.

You don't believe in the Big Bang.

You do believe in a creator God.

Ergo: You don't believe in science.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
By definition? Where did you get that definition?

Don't you know how definitions work?
I say that reality is so or a part of it is so by definition. Some humans use that one, and not only religious one.
Reality is how it is independent of human thought and feelings. Some non-religious use that one.
Yet in reality and as parts of reality humans try to influence each other using thoughts and feelings.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
  • You have no authority to talk about science. You don't believe in science.
  • What is timelight?
  • Are you saying that God spent eternity making angels and heaven? If that is that case, why do people say "God needed another angel in heaven" when a child dies?
What is that supposed to mean
You must have missed:
  • What is timelight?

  • Are you saying that God spent eternity making angels and heaven? If that is that case, why do people say "God needed another angel in heaven" when a child dies?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Don't you know how definitions work?
I say that reality is so or a part of it is so by definition. Some humans use that one, and not only religious one.
Reality is how it is independent of human thought and feelings. Some non-religious use that one.
Yet in reality and as parts of reality humans try to influence each other using thoughts and feelings.
RE:"Encounters with a god, the numinous, past lives, the supernatural, superstitions like witchcraft, Christian/Jewish/Muslim prayer and 1,000 other things we can name have this in common: THEY THOROUGHLY ON THEIR FACE REPUDIATE MATERIALISM AND ARE NEAR UNIVERSAL AMONG HUMAN KIND."

So, all that is just something you made up. OK
 

Darkstorn

This shows how unique i am.
Here is the reduction of everything as per Descartes. I doubt everything, but I realize there is something left, Namely that I doubt. So you can't reduce everything down to nothing, because there is something. That you can reduce.

So, the takeaway is that there is nothing left except your doubt. Which is exactly what i was accusing you of. My context was a debate in a public forum, where the primary consideration is whether or not people understand your points. Needless complexity adds nothing by definition.

Do you understand nothingness?

I know this and you don't. BTW words are not magic, so you can't reduce me to nothing, because your words hold no magical power over me.

I know that you're being limited by your understanding of "nothing." I can reduce you into nothing inherent to yourself. All your thoughts, experiences, feelings, and even genetics, are but the thoughts, experiences, feelings and genetics of someone / thing that you experience, feel and think about, or to who you are biologically related.

You literally have nothing inherent to yourself. Your very being is an amalgamation of things that came before. Much like a star. Or a piece of sand.

/E: The very idea of what "you" even are, is a defence mechanism.
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
RE:"Encounters with a god, the numinous, past lives, the supernatural, superstitions like witchcraft, Christian/Jewish/Muslim prayer and 1,000 other things we can name have this in common: THEY THOROUGHLY ON THEIR FACE REPUDIATE MATERIALISM AND ARE NEAR UNIVERSAL AMONG HUMAN KIND."

So, all that is just something you made up. OK

That one wasn't me.
Nor reality is what it is independent of human thought and feelings.

Here is how there are 2 ways to go about definitions:
One is the correct, proper definition or if you like the authoritative version. A word has this meaning, because I say so.
The second is to explain how you use the word, how it works in relationship to the rest of the world.

It ties in with the correspondence theory of truth. You explain a word as what makes it true. I see a cat, when I see a cat and I can describe the general properties of a cat.
You don't define a work as how it makes sense to you as you. You explain and describe how the word works in relationship to the rest of world.
A word is a sign, so how do signs work?
A word has meaning, so how does that work?
A word is about something, so what is it about and how does it work that it is about something.

Now in everyday conversation that is simple, but the moment we hit the following level: What is reality really and what is the relationship between us as humans and reality? Further for humans, is there an universal we for all humans that covers all aspects of being human?
Now here is what happens in practice: We are all doing an act of self-referencing in part because we all in effect talk about reality with us as a part of it. It is weird, I know, but the words: Universe/world/everything/reality are in part an act of self-referencing, because e.g. everything includes the human using the word everything.
It doesn't mean that I am everything, I means I am a part of everything and all I in effect do, is to describe the relationship I have to myself and other parts of everything.

So here is how everything is objective work. You answer no, because everything is not objective. Objective is a specific relationship between two parts of everything.
Everything is subjective. No, because subjective is about human control, but you don't control everything.
The list of everything is a specific X goes on, but in practice there is always a non-X as something else.
The joke about the word everything is that it is about "everything, something, something else and/or nothing and how that works". But how that works is not that simple. How is that? Well, we can disagree about it. :)
 

ecco

Veteran Member
That one wasn't me.
Nor reality is what it is independent of human thought and feelings.

Here is how there are 2 ways to go about definitions:
One is the correct, proper definition or if you like the authoritative version. A word has this meaning, because I say so.
The second is to explain how you use the word, how it works in relationship to the rest of the world.

It ties in with the correspondence theory of truth. You explain a word as what makes it true. I see a cat, when I see a cat and I can describe the general properties of a cat.
You don't define a work as how it makes sense to you as you. You explain and describe how the word works in relationship to the rest of world.
A word is a sign, so how do signs work?
A word has meaning, so how does that work?
A word is about something, so what is it about and how does it work that it is about something.

Now in everyday conversation that is simple, but the moment we hit the following level: What is reality really and what is the relationship between us as humans and reality? Further for humans, is there an universal we for all humans that covers all aspects of being human?
Now here is what happens in practice: We are all doing an act of self-referencing in part because we all in effect talk about reality with us as a part of it. It is weird, I know, but the words: Universe/world/everything/reality are in part an act of self-referencing, because e.g. everything includes the human using the word everything.
It doesn't mean that I am everything, I means I am a part of everything and all I in effect do, is to describe the relationship I have to myself and other parts of everything.

So here is how everything is objective work. You answer no, because everything is not objective. Objective is a specific relationship between two parts of everything.
Everything is subjective. No, because subjective is about human control, but you don't control everything.
The list of everything is a specific X goes on, but in practice there is always a non-X as something else.

The joke about the word everything is that it is about "everything, something, something else and/or nothing and how that works". But how that works is not that simple. How is that? Well, we can disagree about it. :)
The joke is that I actually took the time to read all that.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I was accusing you of a bunch of other things like dishonesty and insecurity too. You didn't address those in any way so i'll take it as a silent admission.

Because pot and kettle go without saying? I'm rubber, you are glue... may Jesus... bless... you!

Thanks to adding to my Heavenly reward by falsely accusing me!
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
In religion, any religion, that is always the starting point.
Religions aren't discovered through objective analysis of testable data.




No amount of "testimony" is ever enough to accept claims concerning the suspension or violation of natural law.
No amount of "testimony" is ever enough to accept extra-ordinary claims of any kind.

The starting point of Christianity is a person, not a "revelation".

If we cannot discover religion through objective analysis, how are you to discover its falsity? That seems a double standard.

What would make you accept a claim concerning the suspension of natural law? If Jesus visibly appeared to you, would you follow Him or tell your friends, "I had a horrible brain blip vision today"?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
How can that ever be the case, if at best only one version of these experiences can be accurate?

After, it is not possible that both hindu's and christians are correct. One or both HAS to be wrong.

This is my actual central point: of ALL those mutually exclusive things, AT BEST only 1 is correct.
Meaning that the vast majority MUST be mistaken.

How could such things ever repudiate anything, if it has - at best - a success rate of 0.1%????
That makes no sense at all...

Now, if we also take into account the very real, very demonstrated psychological fact that humans are incredibly easy to deceive, have a demonstrated tendency to hold irrational and superstitious beliefs....

Then it seems to me instead of "repudiating materialism", the very fact that there is such a wide range of mutually exclusive beliefs... seems to me that it instead repudiates all those beliefs.


Having said that... even if 100% of people followed the same religion, it would still be a faith based undertaking with no rational evidence to back it up.

Such faith based beliefs have exactly zero explanatory power and therefor can't repudiate anything at all.

Now, eventhough I don't label myself a materialist (to dogmatic for my taste - I don't know if the physical is all that exists), at least materialism is supported by literally all data.... Because the ONLY thing we can actually confirm to exist, is the physical.




Here's where your case falls apart imo. With the word "genuine". That is just a claim. A claim not in evidence.

Having said that, as I have explained already, I completely disagree that such experiences are near universal.

What is actually near universal is that humans are superstitious, easy to deceive, prone to type 1 cognition errors, have a tendency to infuse agency in random events,.... and religions are just one manifestation of that. Alien abductees are another.

There is actual evidential support for my thesis, while I see nothing but problems with yours.

So based on my thesis touching Hinduism and the Bible, "Only one of these two is shown logical, accurate, honest, consistent, provable, verifiable" your "response" is a relativist "How can we ever really know the truth of anything"? I don't buy that.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Stating facts is not being rude.

You do not believe in the Theory of Evolution. Don't try to wriggle by saying you believe in Microevolution. That's not the same thing.

You don't believe in the Big Bang.

You do believe in a creator God.

Ergo: You don't believe in science.

I beg your pardon, evolution is real, and the BB singularity expansion is fine with me and does not disprove or discount the Bible narrative, but strengthens it.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
You must have missed:
  • What is timelight?

  • Are you saying that God spent eternity making angels and heaven? If that is that case, why do people say "God needed another angel in heaven" when a child dies?

Huh? Children don't become angels. Are you going to debate using English idioms or the scriptures?

Timelight is time as we count time based on light moving at a constant speed. Before this universe per BB theory, was there light? Was there linear timelight or time?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I beg your pardon, evolution is real, and the BB singularity expansion is fine with me and does not disprove or discount the Bible narrative, but strengthens it.

Just to be clear, when you say "evolution is real" you are stating that the scientific theory (the Theory of Evolution) that man evolved naturally from related ancestor species is correct.
 
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