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God did it

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
You can call it as you like, but if it is always the case that supernatural explanations are replaced by natural ones, while the vice-versa never happens, and there is not a shred of evidence for the existence of a spiritual world, which seems to only serve the psychological needs of a few primates on a planet, then, I mean, it is obvious where we should put our money.

Ciao

- viole

So please address this is science:
The cosmological principle is usually stated formally as 'Viewed on a sufficiently large scale, the properties of the universe are the same for all observers.' This amounts to the strongly philosophical statement that the part of the universe which we can see is a fair sample, and that the same physical laws apply throughout. In essence, this in a sense says that the universe is knowable and is playing fair with scientists.
William C. Keel (2007). The Road to Galaxy Formation (2nd ed.). Springer-Praxis.
How come science use philosophy or that in essence, this in a sense says that the universe is knowable and is playing fair with scientists? How come you need philosophy to do knowledge?

If you want it closer to home for you as an individual, then tackle a Boltzmann Brain. You know science so you know this or else google it.
Here is the strongly philosophical statement about that: The universe is knowable, because as the universe appears to you is how the universe is for knowledge and it is fair, because you are not a Boltzmann Brain. Then problem of what really real is? The answer is that real is psychology. It is subjective and what a humans needs to believe in it.
So what about a bet on that? Well, the odds are unknown, because knowledge is not a fact itself.
It is the assumption/presumption/hidden premise to you, that the universe is fair and natural. But you can't know that. You assume it for psychological reasons, but those would be the same if you are in the universe you assume or if you are a Boltzmann Brain. You have psychological needs and so I have I.
I just know that all knowledge works this way:
Münchhausen trilemma - Wikipedia

Methodological naturalism use the last one: The assumption in effect that the universe is fair and natural.
Neither of us know what reality really is and stop claiming that your psychology is fundamentally different that mine.
I cope differently than you, but we both cope.
That is how everyday life works.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Smart being stupid isnt something to brag about.
I am stupid, irrational and so on is some sense and I am proud of it, because I have learned to cope and have a good enough life, despite some humans telling me, that I shouldn't feel good about.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I'm well aware of christian theology and many of its incarnations in various denominations.
Your religion is not special.



I understand you, being a christian, believe that.
Hindu's think their religion is special.
Muslims think islam is special.
Scientologist think scientology is special.
Mormons think mormonism is special.


But it's not. None of them are special.
Sure, they are all unique.... that's kind of what makes them different religions.
If islam and christianity were the same, we wouldn't have different words for them. :rolleyes:



Shocker. A believer of religion X, thinks religion X is the "only true religion".
I'm shocked. Shocked, I say.



Haaaa. Here come the implied threats.

:rolleyes:

So tiring, so tiring,...
So, it is apparent you haven´t a clue as to why Christianity is different from the others. There is one huge fundamental difference.

Do you suffer from paranoia ? What threats ? It is your life and you are free to deny. I can´t imagine a threat of any kind there.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
How come science use philosophy or that in essence, this in a sense says that the universe is knowable and is playing fair with scientists? How come you need philosophy to do knowledge?

You can call it whatever you wish.
The fact of the matter is, as I explained to you already, one needs to make the 3 basal assumptions in order to be able to operate in the universe.

YOU TOO assume that gravity works today in the exact same way as it did yesterday. You don't ponder the possibility that if you let go of your keys today, that they will shoot off into space instead of falling to earth.

When you design a spaceprobe that goes on a mission to a moon orbitting saturn, you assume that gravity there works the same as it does here. And in so doing, you calibrate the machinery of the probe accordingly. The mechanism to land the probe without damaging it, is literally dependend on very specific calculations involving, among other things, gravity - the force of which is in turn calculated based on the mass of the moon (and perhaps jupiter as it will like have some influence as well).

You do this, because you have on other choice.

And lo and behold... if you do your calculations based on those basal assumptions - probes actually reach their destination and land safely, like Curiosity did on Mars.

If you don't do your calculations assuming that gravity is how we observe it to be here on this planet, then the mission fails and the probe crashes on the moon or it even misses its target entirely and gets lost in deep space. In fact, how would you even calculate it, in that case? Again we come to compulsory aspect of it: you have no other choice.

There is no reason at all to assume gravity works differently on another planet.

The basal assumptions thus are first reasonable (and compulsory, as you have no other choice, as I explained). And on top of that: they actually work. As said, one HAS to assume the universe is knowable and unchanging (in terms of how the forces work etc). You can't build a single device without such assumption.

Any and all discoveries are completely useless if you assume that doing the same test over and over again will produce different results every time.

Luckily, the universe seems quite knowable and consistent enough so that we can learn about it. And when we assume such, we actually succeed in building workable technology.

So what's the problem, really? What is your actual objection, aside from semantic nonsense?

If you want it closer to home for you as an individual, then tackle a Boltzmann Brain. You know science so you know this or else google it.
Here is the strongly philosophical statement about that: The universe is knowable, because as the universe appears to you is how the universe is for knowledge and it is fair, because you are not a Boltzmann Brain. Then problem of what really real is? The answer is that real is psychology. It is subjective and what a humans needs to believe in it.

And therefor... what, exactly?
You can't know anything? Science is a waste of time?

You see, regardless of all your ranting about your various versions of "real" or "wrong" and "subjective bla-di-bla,...." ... it seems as if none of those "problems" are inhibiting us to build things like GPS satellites, space-probes, medicine, computers,..... ALL of which are literally dependend on the basal assumptions.


Sooo.... what's that about?

So what about a bet on that?

I'll bet you a bazillion dollars that anywhere in the universe, if you find yourself on an object with enough mass, gravity will be pulling you towards it with a force relative to its mass.


It is the assumption/presumption/hidden premise to you, that the universe is fair and natural

The assumption that the universe is consistent enough so that we can learn about it, is tested every single time you turn on a device, which is literally dependend on the universe being consistent enough. Every time you turn on the lights in your house, you completely expect the light to go on, because you expect electro-magnetism to work exactly like it worked yesterday and exactly like it worked when electricity was first discovered and then used to develop the lightbulb.

As a matter of fact...... you TRUST this SO MUCH that if the light doesn't happen to go on, you will completely assume at first that the light bulb is simply broken and needs changing.
If then again the light doesn't turn on, your first idea will be that the "new" bulb is broken as well.
If no electrical equipment at all works, you will assume that there is a problem with the electricity feed in your home. If the neighbours also don't have any electricity, you'ld consider it to be a local black out. You'll assume problems in the lines or at the provider.


AT NO POINT AT ALL will you EVER assume that electro magnetism suddenly stopped working the way it does, or changed somehow. Ever.

Don't pretend as if this isn't true.
The idea that the workings of electro-magnetism changed (and therefor, electrical equipment build for the "old way of working" would no longer function) is an idea that will NEVER cross your mind. Ever. Unless it is as a joke.


Methodological naturalism use the last one: The assumption in effect that the universe is fair and natural.

Which is an assumption that works and yields positive results.
ie: your computer, or whatever device you use to read this, only works because of that assumption.

note: i disagree with your wording, wich I find bizar and confusing. As noted, I put it as "the universe is consistent enough so that we can learn about it".

I cope differently than you

No, you don't. As explained above with the lightbulb.
If the light doesn't work in your house, then "electro magnetism changed" wouldn't even be the last resort idea if all else fails to get it to work again. It just wouldn't. You would not consider it, at any point, nore would you suggest it.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
So, it is apparent you haven´t a clue as to why Christianity is different from the others.

Let me rephrase, if that makes it clearer...

All religions are different.
All religions are unique in their own way.

That's what makes them different religions.

However, none of them are special in terms of credibility.
They all make the same kind of claims: unsupported, unfalsifiable, indistinguishable from imagination.

In that sense, christianity is just like all the others. Not special.


There is one huge fundamental difference.
Do you suffer from paranoia ? What threats ?

"Deny away, itś your life."

Why else would you add "it's your life", if not to imply there will be negative consequences as a result of denying it?

It's like saying: "sure, do drugs, it's your life".
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I am stupid, irrational and so on is some sense and I am proud of it, because I have learned to cope and have a good enough life, despite some humans telling me, that I shouldn't feel good about.
Overthinking anything is not good.. Breathe aint so bad... I once thought about overthinking got stressed overthinking it.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Let me rephrase, if that makes it clearer...

All religions are different.
All religions are unique in their own way.

That's what makes them different religions.

However, none of them are special in terms of credibility.
They all make the same kind of claims: unsupported, unfalsifiable, indistinguishable from imagination.

In that sense, christianity is just like all the others. Not special.


There is one huge fundamental difference.


"Deny away, itś your life."

Why else would you add "it's your life", if not to imply there will be negative consequences as a result of denying it?

It's like saying: "sure, do drugs, it's your life".
Gads, I was making the point that because it is YOUR life, you have the right and freedom to deny religion, or make any other choice you choose.

Well, do drugs, it is your life
 

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
So back to the thread at hand. The bold one is good and sharp. Good catch. Here is how it works. Start with "I think therefor I am". I am certain of that, but I can't be certain that I am dreaming or not. That is back to Descartes. So I am not certain that anything else exists. Remember I am for now an ontological solipsist. And now I notice something in my experiences. I still have those. Some of them play out differently than I want for it to happen. So I need an ad hoc. I need to explain what it is that I can't do as I like in every sense. That is my subconscious mind. Remember I am the only thing that exists, but I notice that there are part of my experiences over time that don't happen as I wanted them to happen. That are experiences which come from my subconscious mind.

Now I am back. The problem with that assumption, is that, which is my subconscious mind, it isn't mine. That is where solipsism fails. Solipsism is in ontological terms as for what exists 2 parts. That which is mine and what which is not mine, because my subconscious mind is not mine. If it were mine, I could control, but I can't.
Descartes removed everything. It's not enough to just say it must be subconscious and therefore it is separate from me. Remember, the unconscious is a relatively new concept, which was primarily thought of by Freud. In the past, actions or thoughts outside of ones behaviour might be thought of as demons. As I recall, there was someone else positing a similar theory at the time, but Freud's theory became popular. Before this however, the idea of a second mind or a part of you, which you are unaware of, was not a conceived concept before Freud. Therefore, it seems strange to me how you can suddenly summon this thought when even Descartes did not. You'd obviously be using this concept whereas the thought experiment explicitly removes what is already known. Therefore, I cannot accept this proposition without good argument.

Now I am back. The problem with that assumption, is that, which is my subconscious mind, it isn't mine. That is where solipsism fails. Solipsism is in ontological terms as for what exists 2 parts. That which is mine and what which is not mine, because my subconscious mind is not mine. If it were mine, I could control, but I can't.
Assuming it's part of you, or not, why would you need to control it in order for it to be part of you? Similarly, there are physical parts of your body that you cannot control but I'd assume we'd call it part of you.

So back to das Ding an sich. In the basic sense everything else which is not mine or me, is something else
I agree.

But go back and look again.
You don't control that, it control and caused you. Now is it fair, that which controls you?
I disagree.

Now I will add something and use science:
This one will do for explaining a Boltzmann Brain. Note it is science
String theory may limit space brain threat
This one will do for the problem of a Boltzmann Brain
Universes that spawn 'cosmic brains' should go on the scrapheap
Here is it about the multiverse. Wikipedia will do, because it has good direct sources:
Multiverse - Wikipedia
Against:
In favor of:
Notice something about the 1st and 3rd bolds? They have in common, that we can trust our senses and our reasoning in the end, yet the first one starts with dogma: TRUST you senses and then later claims that you can decide something based emotions; i.e. bizarre.
The 3rd one is worse in a sense, it uses one emotion, wasteful and then use aesthetics - inelegant.
Even though these are scientific theories, they are not substantiated. In this regard, they are purely theoretical. Some theories may help explain phenomena, but without evidence, it stays in the realm of theoretical. For example, Einstein, as I recall, predicted that light curves or bends with gravity. This stayed mostly theory until it was actually observed after his death, as I recall. The point being, is that you are using these theories of multiverses, BoltzmannBrain and so on, as substance to support argument. The only argument they support is that these may be possible from a scientific standpoint.

So if we look closer at the science for the fundamental state of Science, for what reality really is, you can use dogma, emotions and aesthetics.
Now do back to das Ding an sich and how that is God. It is the unknown of what reality is as independent of your mind and what das Ding an sich really is.
So all cultures have a myth about that, the myth in Science, not science, is that are a natural reality, impersonal, which you must trust and can only get through emotions and aesthetics.
That is the God of Science or what objective reality/the natural world really is.
It is math in the heads of scientists, which all can't be correct. So let us use the standard atheistic approach to contradictory claims about beliefs in a supernatural God and apply them on a natural God.
Objective reality can't both be a multiverse and a Boltzmann Brain, yet both is science. Can you spot the belief in the multiverse version. The natural God is fair. You can trust your senses, reasoning, emotions and aesthetics to explain the universe and you are not a Boltzmann Brain, because that doesn't make sense.
Compare with how if there is no supernatural God and how that doesn't make sense to religious humans in general and for some that you don't die, when you die.
You have to slow down here :p

So for all that claim to know, what objective reality really is independent of the mind, it is an act of faith.
Though, this is not the claim science makes for methodological naturalism. Science, which has the closest accurate models of reality, uses statistics. It never claims to know. Therefore, it is never an act of faith.

You can't do it with evidence, reason, logic and all that alone. You have to have faith in the fairness, emotions and what not of what objective reality really is. For both strong beliefs system of knowledge it revolves about first person individual attempt of making sense of the unknown and neither Science nor Religion can do that. Nor can Philosophy BTW.
Ok, but I don't know how you came to this conclusion. I'm not denying this may be true but I don't know how you know.

But philosophy can explain how it is, that you can't Know.
I'm not sure how true this is. It's logic that demonstrates if an argument is unreasonable or irrational, but even logic does not say you cannot know. And, I have no idea, in what sense, philosophy says you can't know. Epistemology tells us, rather, how we can know and the standard of evidence. So, when you say can't know, it seems more akin to proving a negative. In logic, one cannot prove a negative if a sound argument exists. Inferentially, you can however.

I seem to have lost the objective of this thread
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I will try to answer what unknown is in practice.

Unknown is not a thing. It is a process in a given brain, which has a result.

So what is it?
Well, it is a behavior in some humans. Those of us, who try to answer the fundamental question of how does reality really work for all of us? And most people individual try to do that by finding the Same for all of us. That is it.
Some of us try to make a model ,which regardless of variants have one thing in common. It must be the same of all of us.
But it is not, because reality is in practice the same, similar and individual in different respects.
So what is it that happens when someone claims the Same? That someone doesn't not account for that the Same is based on how that person thinks.
That is the problem of all kinds of metaphysics, whether natural or supernatural.
It is simple to test.
Someone: Reality is physical/natural/material as the Same.
Me: No!
Someone Reality is from this one God and not other gods as the Same.
Me: No!

If you then go back in this thread, you will notice what happens. Some humans from these 2 sides answer with psychology. They in effect rationalize away that I believe different about the Same than they do and use the projecting defense, that I am to the effect wrong.
But we are all still here. That is how it plays out in part.
Someone to this effect: I know what really really is and how it is the Same for all of us.
Me: No, I can do it differently.
Someone: You are "wrong in the head"!

So how come the Same is unknown in practice? Because nobody never ever answer what the Same is in itself. They always answer what it is to them individually and when I answer: No!, they always answer to the effect of that they are thinking in a correct manner and I am not.
What they don't notice, is that we all do it. And they only notice that they think correct and everybody else thinks incorrect. They don't notice the following. It is all thinking by everybody including me. I say it aloud.

So the evidence for that we don't know what the Same is, is that everybody answer not with, what the Same is as independent of them, objectively or in itself. They all answer with,what it is to them individually and everybody else, who do it differently, are wrong, because they think in a correct manner and the rest of us don't.
The Same for all of us are unknown, because it is in part different individually because it involves individual thinking.

So I know this and thus I know, how it is, what the unknown is. The unknown is that which those of us, who talk about it, believe it is independent of our thoughts, beliefs and so on. But that is the behavior in a given brain, which has a result some people don't notice. To talk about what is independent of brains, is not possible, because what does talking require?

That is the joke of the unknown. We say it is there, but that is all, because the moment we say more about it:
It is natural, it is form God and so on, then what happens? You know it now, it is a given brain talking.

Metaphysics in practice always connects to morality, because there is a morally right way to talk about it or you are wrong.
It happens in this thread and it has happened in all other threads I have seen over the years. If you know how to look for it, it also happens in professional philosophy and physics.
It always ends like this:
Someone: I think in a correct manner and you don't.
Me: Though luck, because I am still here. Now deal with it.
Someone: I don't like it and you are so wrong.

That is it. All of you who Know, don't notice, that is the same of all us. It is unknown, because we can't talk objectively about it as independent of thinking, because we all use thinking so claim what reality really is independent of humans.

With regards
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Same, similar and different in different respects.

Two things can't be same, yet these two things are now communication, because you are reading this.
Now that takes places through the physical, how we and the Internet work are in part physical. There is further chemistry, logic and so on. E.g. how logic in computers takes places as something physical.
So for a moment forget what reality really is. Rather and this is Kant again, but now in my words.
We need words, even to express that the idea that we could do without.
So when I explain reality, I start with that the act of explaining requires humans. So explaining reality is, how reality works for humans and in part how we use words. And how there are limits to words, including reason, logic, evidence, real, existence and all those words. Notice something about what happens, we do this. We use worth which requires humans. E.g. worth, useful, matters, make sense, relevant and so on.

Now here is an example of something funny in regards to same, similar and different. The universe is the light that comes to use. So I ask, where are we if not in the universe?
Some people operate with a weird duality of e.g. real and unreal. But if something is unreal/not real and you know it, it must be real in some respect, otherwise you can't know it. That is a duality connect to the 2nd classical law of logic. But it has limit for same, similar and different. You can't use it on all of reality, because reality is not the same as logical AND. Yet reality is neither totally different things.
So here it is for the meaning for wrong to some humans and how they in effect express it. They can't see it or observe it, so they can't use science on it and they can't use a religious God on it, because I just use a different one.
So what is that some people do, when they use science or God to express that my psychology and being is wrong, delusional, evil and what not. They use words, which are in them and they then claim that they are not in them. They are objective, independent of them or with science or a religious God. That is what some people share. They do the same, it is not in them. It is similar, yet different because they use different words, which end in the same. That which is the Same for all humans, objective whether with science or God, but in effect they don't. Nobody do, we share a everyday world and then some of us fight with big words. I don't win, I know this, but I win sort of be point out that neither do you. Whether you use science or God, not in practice because we are still in the everyday world.

Even you want it with wise as for philosophy, I know the limit of even wisdom. But not just wisdom. I also know it for knowledge. And yes, you can do it differently, but you can't do it for me, if I do differently not matter how big the words are. Because words are in practice not magical. And I do become wrong, just because you say the words: You, Mikkel, are wrong or any of these other words in play. I know it works in neither direction, and you can believe different, but it doesn't work in practice, because I just answer: No.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Such as?



or just honestly mistaken, off course.

But why can't that be the case? Is there some rule that the majority is always correct or something?


Also, it's not really "just a few atheists".

You are a christian I see. 70% of the world's population doesn't believe the god you worship is real.

You are aware that among all people, christianity is a minority belief, right?

The majority is often incorrect, but here your case is "99% of people who've ever lived were deluded." Yet not 99% of people believe in a Flat Earth or Moon Landing Hoax. We should be asking "Why?!"
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The majority is often incorrect

So, you agree with my point then.

, but here your case is "99% of people who've ever lived were deluded."

Is it? Please quote me where I have said anything remotely like that.
It seems to me that the words I used were "honestly mistaken", not "deluded".

Yet not 99% of people believe in a Flat Earth or Moon Landing Hoax. We should be asking "Why?!"
I posit that we know why...

Human tendency to engage in type 1 cognition errors: the false positive. That + the psychological tendency to infuse agency in random events. To naturally assume that things happen "for some reason" or that the cosmos turns in "your favor".

These two things combined form the very feeding ground for religions to be born from and survive.

To me, that makes perfect sense. It's the underlying reason for things like "faith" and superstition.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
And reductio ad absurdum we go.
For 2 contradictory claims of the same, one is false as per logic.
Likewise there can't be 2 contradictory claims of knowledge for the same.
Now if you know and I don't know for the same world, one of then is false. But there is more.
If I don't know, I can't even write this text and you can't even answer me, but rather if all there is, when I do something without knowledge is nothing, then that is absurd.
Do play nothing with a skeptic. Nothing is not really nothing, it is the absence of something, yet something else. Nothing is a compound word made up out of the speech act of no and the word for something tangible; a thing. Nothing is not nothing, it is the idea of nothing and that is something.

So if you Know and I don't, I believe and I can get way with it, because we are communicating in fact as a fact for the everyday world.
Now for God with souls, Hell, Heaven and what else you could add, you can believe that you Know. Only God Knows. Whether there are an afterlife, what kind and where you and I respectively end up is a question left to God. As much as You Know, I just don't do that. I leave that to God, whether God is the natural world or a personal God. If God is the natural world, we die, if God is a personal God, you might go to Hell or Heaven, if God is reincarnation, then there is that.

So in the end we both use faith, I just admit, but I don't claim Knowledge of God actually is. I believe what God is, is that God is fair in some sense what ever that is depending on what kind of God there really is. I am in a natural world or I am in a supernatural world with souls and what not. What I don't believe in, is that I am a Boltzmann Brain or that I go to Hell, just because I don't know like you.

Contradictory claims can't both be true, but they can both be false.

If I claim the sky is made of cotton candy and you say that the sky is made of bricks, we contradict each other, but we are both wrong.

The real problem comes when we each make UNFALSIFIABLE claims. In this case we can posit whatever we want without being exposed to disproof. Then we are just playing games.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
...


Human tendency to engage in type 1 cognition errors: the false positive. ...

Let us play that:
Reality is real. Is that is false positive? Well, it is a positive, since the claim is a positive. It claims something
positive. So far so good.
Now is it false?
No, it is absurd in the end and without practical relevance.

So first the status of the "is".
Is the verb the same as the observation that I see a black cat and say: The cat is black.? Wel, you can't see real, is that is not the case.
Is it the same as "In logic, the law of non-contradiction (LNC) (also known as the law of contradiction, principle of non-contradiction (PNC), or the principle of contradiction) states that contradictory propositions cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time, e. g. the two propositions "A is B" and "A is not B" are mutually exclusive."? Maybe, but it is not a given it. Because it doesn't seem to about logic only. But more later.
Is it the same as "it is wrong to kill another human"?
Is it something else?

Now on to real:
Austin highlights the complexities proper to the uses of ‘real’ by observing that it is (i) a substantive-hungry word that often plays the role of (ii) adjuster-word, a word by means of which “other words are adjusted to meet the innumerable and unforeseeable demands of world upon language” (Austin 1962a, 73). Like ‘good,’ it is (iii) a dimension-word, that is, “the most general and comprehensive term in a whole group of terms of the same kind, terms that fulfil the same function” (Austin 1962a, 71): that is, ‘true,’ ‘proper,’ ‘genuine,’ ‘live,’ ‘natural,’ ‘authentic,’ as opposed to terms such as ‘false,’ ‘artificial,’ ‘fake,’ ‘bogus,’ ‘synthetic,’ ‘toy,’ but also to nouns like ‘dream,’ ‘illusion,’ ‘mirage,’ ‘hallucination.’ ‘Real,’ is also (iv) a word whose negative use “wears the trousers” (a trouser-word) (Austin 1962a, 70).
https://www.iep.utm.edu/austin/#SH3a

The word "real" only works in contrast to the unreal.
So here is the falsification of "reality is real" as reductio ad absurdum:
It is happening in everyday life between 2 humans engaged in a debate over what reality really is and the falsification is this:
I answer "NO!". But for you to know it, that "NO!" must be a part of reality or come from the really real unreal non-reality.
So back to logic. Any case of A is B, is something in time, space and in some respect, but that is not the case of that "is". It is all cases of something, for all times and all spaces and all respects, but that is where the singular nature of "is" breaks down.
In logic terms the the LNC doesn't work for all times and all spaces and all respects. So it is not logical as such.
Nor is it the set of everything, because it omits unreal, but it can't deal with it, because I just answer "NO!".

So it is moral or something else?
It is both, it is used to judge the negative as unreal and thus wrong. I shouldn't believe differently than you, because reality is real, but that is nothing but something in your brain and thus metaphysics in the end.

You really ought to do some more philosophy, before you start using it.
It is so easy to apply falsification on "reality is real".
I just answer: NO!
See, in everyday life right to you over the Internet.

I do live in everyday life and I can spot when others do philosophy, even if they don't know it. Stop playing with words, just because they make sense to you. Check your own thinking, before using terms like "type 1 cognition error". It might apply to you too and you might not be that special, in that everybody else do so, but not you.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Contradictory claims can't both be true, but they can both be false.

If I claim the sky is made of cotton candy and you say that the sky is made of bricks, we contradict each other, but we are both wrong.

The real problem comes when we each make UNFALSIFIABLE claims. In this case we can posit whatever we want without being exposed to disproof. Then we are just playing games.

Read above about the real problem of "real".
Maybe, just maybe, the idea that everything can be explained without UNFALSIFIABLE claims, is an idea in your brain and nowhere else. Have you checked?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Let us play that:
Reality is real. Is that is false positive? Well, it is a positive, since the claim is a positive. It claims something
positive. So far so good.
Now is it false?
No, it is absurd in the end and without practical relevance.

So first the status of the "is".
Is the verb the same as the observation that I see a black cat and say: The cat is black.? Wel, you can't see real, is that is not the case.
Is it the same as "In logic, the law of non-contradiction (LNC) (also known as the law of contradiction, principle of non-contradiction (PNC), or the principle of contradiction) states that contradictory propositions cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time, e. g. the two propositions "A is B" and "A is not B" are mutually exclusive."? Maybe, but it is not a given it. Because it doesn't seem to about logic only. But more later.
Is it the same as "it is wrong to kill another human"?
Is it something else?

Sorry, but this is just flipping ridiculous.
I don't even know how to respond. As Krauss once said: "I'ld like to respond, but it's hard to respond to nonsense".

Now on to real:

https://www.iep.utm.edu/austin/#SH3a

The word "real" only works in contrast to the unreal.
So here is the falsification of "reality is real" as reductio ad absurdum:
It is happening in everyday life between 2 humans engaged in a debate over what reality really is and the falsification is this:
I answer "NO!". But for you to know it, that "NO!" must be a part of reality or come from the really real unreal non-reality.
So back to logic. Any case of A is B, is something in time, space and in some respect, but that is not the case of that "is". It is all cases of something, for all times and all spaces and all respects, but that is where the singular nature of "is" breaks down.
In logic terms the the LNC doesn't work for all times and all spaces and all respects. So it is not logical as such.
Nor is it the set of everything, because it omits unreal, but it can't deal with it, because I just answer "NO!".

So it is moral or something else?
It is both, it is used to judge the negative as unreal and thus wrong. I shouldn't believe differently than you, because reality is real, but that is nothing but something in your brain and thus metaphysics in the end.

You really ought to do some more philosophy, before you start using it.
It is so easy to apply falsification on "reality is real".
I just answer: NO!
See, in everyday life right to you over the Internet.

I do live in everyday life and I can spot when others do philosophy, even if they don't know it. Stop playing with words, just because they make sense to you. Check your own thinking, before using terms like "type 1 cognition error". It might apply to you too and you might not be that special, in that everybody else do so, but not you.

Same as above.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Read above about the real problem of "real".
Maybe, just maybe, the idea that everything can be explained without UNFALSIFIABLE claims, is an idea in your brain and nowhere else. Have you checked?

Nobody is saying that EVERYTHING can be explained. You're arguing strawmen again.


As for unfalsifiability... unfalsifiable claims can't be tested against observable reality. As a result, once can't check the accuracy and / or practical usefulness of such claims. That, and the fact that unfalsifiable claims are potentially infinite in number, only really limited by ones imagination.

Unfalsifiable claims are useless.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Sorry, but this is just flipping ridiculous.
I don't even know how to respond. As Krauss once said: "I'ld like to respond, but it's hard to respond to nonsense".



Same as above.

I will note the following: You use no actual counter argument.

Now combine with this:

Nobody is saying that EVERYTHING can be explained. You're arguing strawmen again.

Well, that is the problem of reality is real. Reality is everything and everything in reality is real. So according to reality is real, in one respect everything can be explained. Everything is real. And that can be tested: Just answer "No!" and observe that it works. You can have a life without believing that reality is real and everything is not real and you are right. Nobody is saying that EVERYTHING can be explained, except e.g. for reality is real, because for reality is real, it only works if everything is real, so for those who believe reality is real. it follows they believe everything is real

As for unfalsifiability... unfalsifiable claims can't be tested against observable reality. As a result, once can't check the accuracy and / or practical usefulness of such claims. That, and the fact that unfalsifiable claims are potentially infinite in number, only really limited by ones imagination.

Unfalsifiable claims are useless.

So let us test this:
The hidden assumption is that something, which can't be observed is useless. Only that which can be observed is useful.
But you still seem unwilling to learn how the verb " to be" works.
"Unfalsifiable claims are useless" are only useful, if it can be observed. The problem is that it can't be observed, because it is in your head and the "are" is not like "the cat is black". As long as you are functionally unable to check your own claims against your own method, this will continue.
You make value statements about worth, useful and so on, which are not the result of observations. They are the result of how you think and feel. Indeed they are not a part of observable reality, because e.g. useful has the following characteristics:
It can't be seen, held like a thing or have any other sensible aspects. I.e. it can't be observed. There is no scientific theory of useful. There is no scientific instrument to measure useful and there is no international scientific measurement standard for useful.
I.e. to claim that science is useful, is not itself science. This is a first person subjective value statement.
So back to: "Unfalsifiable claims are useless". You are not aware it seems, that the sentence is incomplete: The correct sentence is: "Unfalsifiable claims are useless to me". But once you notice that, you know it is a first person subjective value statement and not based on observation.

You subjectively believe that the objective has value. But the objective does not have value. It subjectively have value to you. You are still doing it. You use claims like "Unfalsifiable claims are useless" and don't test according to your own
method.

To you God is the objective in a natural sense. The problem that the objective is useful, is an act of faith, because it is not based on observation itself. Your religion is showing. You subjectively believe in that you can objectively with evidence/observation, reason and logic do life. You can't do everything in life objectively with evidence/observation, reason and logic.
You know that for other humans and their claims, but you don't know it about your own belief system. That is because they subjectively work for you and you don't have to check, because they work for you subjectively.
All religions for their core beliefs have that in common: They are subjective value statements. That is also the case for you.

So again, I know this for all humans for everyday life and you believe differently. In effect you use unfalsifiable claims yourself, but they are useful to you, because they are value statements about how you subjectively make sense of reality.

The problem is that nobody can make all of reality objective for everyday life. Not you, me or anybody else. I know this and you believe differently.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
So, you agree with my point then.



Is it? Please quote me where I have said anything remotely like that.
It seems to me that the words I used were "honestly mistaken", not "deluded".


I posit that we know why...

Human tendency to engage in type 1 cognition errors: the false positive. That + the psychological tendency to infuse agency in random events. To naturally assume that things happen "for some reason" or that the cosmos turns in "your favor".

These two things combined form the very feeding ground for religions to be born from and survive.

To me, that makes perfect sense. It's the underlying reason for things like "faith" and superstition.

That is NOT your claim, oh pasta monster.

Your claim is "despite the reams of evidence disproving faith and the reams of evidence showing their is no God, most people are "honestly mistaken" . . . "

So, please tell me three other things over 90% of people are honestly mistaken about DESPITE HAVING THE FACTS:

1.
2.
3.
 
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