God explaining himself?

[Clara Tea]

OK, so one of the qualities of God is that he is ineffable - at least to us humans and presumably not to himself...

But he is also all-powerful...

So wouldn't that mean that he is capable of explaining the mysteries of his true nature to we humans?

Which in a roundabout way would mean that he is not really necessarially ineffable?

Basically: could God ever tell us exactly how exactly he himself works? - For instance, how his mind works and how he interacts with his creation - indeed how exactly he made his creation, as in what mechanisms were employed? - could he ever tell us how exactly he went about making something out of nothing in such a way that we would actually understand?

Are humans capable of learning to understand how God works?

Your two points are interesting:
1. God ineffable: (too great to be put into words).
2. God all powerful (can do anything)...including put into words what He (God) is.

God can teach, but we would have to learn. Is God's power sufficient to teach us even if we are incapable of learning?

It seems almost impossible to prove the existence of God. The closest that we could come to proof is ESP. If a psychic could correctly predict the future, then we know that ESP works. It wouldn't be very hard to conclude that God is real if ESP works. It would mean that information has a way of organizing outside of a brain.

Is it possible that a lesser being could make a greater being? I think so. Humans can make computers that can do amazing calculations. So, at least in one way, humans made a device that is superior to themselves.

God seems to hide, but demand worship. God gave humans freedom of choice (do good or bad). But, humans wouldn't have freedom to disbelieve if God didn't hide. If God performed miracles for all to see, then everyone would have to believe in God. Unless, of course, there are some who just don't (or can't) see the miracles.

Revelation is a prediction that two Satanic demons from hell will defeat and corrupt Iraq as leaders of the most powerful nation in the world (According to Revelation 17:18). With eerie accuracy, Revelation came true in all of its details. So, the fulfillment of ancient prophecy is tantamount to proving that supernatural things can occur.

Since God is hiding, some people see God's miracles and don't recognize them. Some might not think that we are in the end times, but things are happening by coincidence.

Accepting Satan is a package deal. Satan wants to ruin all of God's wonderful achievements. So, pollution, Global Warming, offshore drilling, logging old growth forests, etc., is to be expected. That is, we don't have to expect just one bad thing, we must accept a lot of bad things from the same leader.

 

[SalixIncendium]

OK, so one of the qualities of God is that he is ineffable - at least to us humans and presumably not to himself...

But he is also all-powerful...

So wouldn't that mean that he is capable of explaining the mysteries of his true nature to we humans?

Which in a roundabout way would mean that he is not really necessarially ineffable?

Basically: could God ever tell us exactly how exactly he himself works? - For instance, how his mind works and how he interacts with his creation - indeed how exactly he made his creation, as in what mechanisms were employed? - could he ever tell us how exactly he went about making something out of nothing in such a way that we would actually understand?

Are humans capable of learning to understand how God works?

Yes. Ineffable means incapable of being expressed with words. Being told with words is not the only method of gaining understanding.

 

[SalixIncendium]

No is the short answer.

God speaks to us through His Messengers.

We get to know of God by what the Messengers reveals to us. They also give a message that is relevant to out capacity to understand.

Baha'u'llah disposed of a lot of Revelation from God, saying mankind was not ready for it.

We have proved we are not ready, we still destroy ourselves and the world we live in.

How strange, how very strange. Why do we not listen?

Regards Tony

"Us"..."We"... I see you're still carrying that mouse around in your pocket. How is it doing, by the way?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Not without negative side effects. If the mysteries were explained then faith would no longer exist.

What would be negative about replacing faith with knowledge and understanding?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Given the attributes asserted by theism, a god could have created humans with the ability to comprehend him. He chose not to. What is god hiding? I guess he could be evil and just lie to us, and we would never know it.

Or he could just have forgotten that he's a god.

 

[Suave]

I think that the entity we know of as "God" is in fact The Simulation

However, I believe that above The Simulation there is a Supreme Being

Virtual reality worlds may seem very, real, but metaverses are almost certainly programmed simulations reflective of the one base reality we likely are not in. Save for you and I, why does not anybody else here on RF realize this!

 

[dybmh]

What would be negative about replacing faith with knowledge and understanding?

Faith is unique because it allows one to skip past a lack of knowledge and understanding to accomplish a goal. The converse doesn't apply. With faith a person can always go further than with knowledge and understanding. Faith is less limited.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"Us"..."We"... I see you're still carrying that mouse around in your pocket. How is it doing, by the way?

There is only one human race, so yes us.



Baha'u'llah offered this.

"O contending peoples and kindreds of the earth! Set your faces towards unity, and let the radiance of its light shine upon you. Gather ye together, and for the sake of God resolve to root out whatever is the source of contention amongst you. Then will the effulgence of the world’s great Luminary envelop the whole earth, and its inhabitants become the citizens of one city, and the occupants of one and the same throne.."

Regards Tony

 

[blü 2]

God places knowledge around us all.

It's called 'reasoned enquiry', isn't it? Scientific method, historical method, mathematical method, and so on.

All the secrets stare us all in the face.

Please set out a few clarifying examples from your own experience.

 

[firedragon]

OK, so one of the qualities of God is that he is ineffable - at least to us humans and presumably not to himself...

But he is also all-powerful...

So wouldn't that mean that he is capable of explaining the mysteries of his true nature to we humans?

Ineffable from who's point of view? From the human perspective. And according to who is God "ineffable"? What is the exact wording of that? Which exactly scripture are you referring to? Interesting.

Nevertheless, If God is "ineffable" as you say, how would God make an ineffable thing an effable?

Thats a logical contradiction. It's an illogical argument. I don't know if you have any scripture that says God can give you a square triangle.

 

[SalixIncendium]

There is only one human race, so yes us.

Who authorized you to speak on behalf of me and the whole human race?

I mean, in my opinion, you shouldn't even be authorized to speak on behalf of the mouse.

 

[wellwisher]

OK, so one of the qualities of God is that he is ineffable - at least to us humans and presumably not to himself...

But he is also all-powerful...

So wouldn't that mean that he is capable of explaining the mysteries of his true nature to we humans?

Which in a roundabout way would mean that he is not really necessarially ineffable?

Basically: could God ever tell us exactly how exactly he himself works? - For instance, how his mind works and how he interacts with his creation - indeed how exactly he made his creation, as in what mechanisms were employed? - could he ever tell us how exactly he went about making something out of nothing in such a way that we would actually understand?

Are humans capable of learning to understand how God works?

If God dumbed down sufficient for us to understand him, he would no longer appear to be God. He would appear like a layman speaking of God.

As an analogy, say we have an expert Scientist. We ask him to explain what he does, and how he views the world through his expert prism, so everyone in the room can understand.

With that condition in mind, he could not just talk shop, like he does with his expert peers. He would need to simplify and then over simplify, so he does not lose his audience. Now he does not speak like an expert, but as a layman.

Faith, on the other hand, is not as simple as seeing is believing. It does not require a layman's explanation. If requires being able to fill in the blanks, beyond what is obvious to the eyes. Faith means that God would explain himself as an expert to an expert, and although we would not fully understand, we would have faith, that over time and space, we would learn to get closer to a fuller understanding.

Faith is the basis for all innovation, including science. The innovator senses something that may not yet be fully formed in our mind, nor yet part of physical reality. They anticipates a future, where this new idea may take a form that others can sense or see. After it is done, those who need to see to believe, can get then on board. This is why God goes through his faithful messengers; preprocessing of expert data.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Who authorized you to speak on behalf of me and the whole human race?

I mean, in my opinion, you shouldn't even be authorized to speak on behalf of the mouse.

Baha'u'llah did. He said go forth, do not fear ridicule do not fear persecution.

“The Faith of the Blessed Beauty (Baha’u’llah) is summoning mankind to safety and love, to amity and peace; it hath raised up its tabernacle on the heights of the earth, and directeth its call to all nations. Wherefore, O ye who are God’s lovers, know ye the value of this precious Faith, obey its teachings, walk in this road that is drawn straight, and show ye this way to the people. Lift up your voices and sing out the song of the Kingdom. Spread far and wide the precepts and counsels of the loving Lord, so that this world will change into another world, and this darksome earth will be flooded with light, and the dead body of mankind will arise and live; so that every soul will ask for immortality, through the holy breaths of God.”

The dead body of mankind is us, while we still do not have unity, you and I are dead without unity. We may think we exist, but binding of elements gives life, structure and purpose, the dissolution of those elements is death.

Baha'u'llah also said to also stop sharing with those that do not want to hear, so if you like I can put all that do not want to hear on ignore, that way I will never make a reply or offer anything more. Please advise if that is your choice.

Regards Tony

 

[Bird123]

It's called 'reasoned enquiry', isn't it? Scientific method, historical method, mathematical method, and so on.
Please set out a few clarifying examples from your own experience.

Reasoned Inquiry, scientific method, historical method, mathematical method are tools mankind uses to figure things out.

Clarifying examples: How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how? How long did mankind watch lightning before mankind understood anything about electricity.

Along with those tools What I use to help figure things out is Eb and Flow of knowledge. Example: If you are to build a car, all cars must include certain things: An engine, a braking method, a steering method, and a place to sit or ride. Eb and Flow of knowledge helps putting the pieces together. You get the idea.

There are a million questions about God's actions that must be investigated: Examples: God doesn't just give everyone knowledge. One must struggle to acquire knowledge. Why does God do this? There seems to be many bad things that happen in this world. Why does God allow that? People think God created Hell and frying kids. Why would God do that? People think people are born sinful. Why would God create sinful people? Some people think there is no after life. Why would God set up such a system? Some say God has wrath. What does such an intelligent being have to be so angry about? Some say evolution is the god of the universe. Could evolution be part of God's actions? What has a little firefly taught us about lighting? What has medicine and sickness taught us about biology? What will crime teach us when mankind decides to investigate the underlying causes. Finally, what do all the challenges, adversity along with God making us work to Discover tell us about what God is doing with this planet and it's people?

Just like all the physics add up perfectly, so does everything about the people factor. The people factor is much more complicated simply because there are many more variables. See, everything about God does and will add up.

Seeing all these actions of God and the results of God's actions, What is the goal? What is the purpose? People see this world as a mess yet why would High Intelligence make a mess? Perhaps the reasons and the purpose will change the view and bring Understanding. With Understanding comes Discovering what God is really like and all about?

God hides nothing yet how many choose or are blind to see anything at all other than handed down beliefs? The first thing God pointed out to me is that mankind carries such a narrow view, blind to so very much. Can one who really seeks truth ever be satisfied accepting, then keeping a narrow view, thereby ignoring so very much? I think not!!

As a hungry student, the questions never end. Discovery merely opens doors to Discover much more and the new questions that will lead forward.

Yes, Eternity has purpose. This purpose is seen all over the world yet how many have no clue at all?

So much is said about God that simply is not true. I would think one would want to know the truth. On the other hand, Discovery takes work. It has always been easier to accept beliefs then do nothing, however what does one end up with? Certainly not the truth. It comes down to what one seeks. Sometimes those who seek find what they are seeking.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Truth in love]

OK, so one of the qualities of God is that he is ineffable - at least to us humans and presumably not to himself...

But he is also all-powerful...

So wouldn't that mean that he is capable of explaining the mysteries of his true nature to we humans?

Which in a roundabout way would mean that he is not really necessarially ineffable?

Basically: could God ever tell us exactly how exactly he himself works? - For instance, how his mind works and how he interacts with his creation - indeed how exactly he made his creation, as in what mechanisms were employed? - could he ever tell us how exactly he went about making something out of nothing in such a way that we would actually understand?

Are humans capable of learning to understand how God works?

The full level of God's power is beyond what our mortal minds can really get. To do so would be like trying to get a 2 year old to understand a few dozen PHD's worth of information. However as we move on from mortality to immortality that potential is there.

 

[blü 2]

Reasoned Inquiry, scientific method, historical method, mathematical method are tools mankind uses to figure things out.

Clarifying examples: How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how?

There used to be an argument whether a model bird found in an Egyptian tomb is intended to be a toy glider or is only accidentally so.

How long did mankind watch lightning before mankind understood anything about electricity.

Our systematic enquiry into electricity including lightning goes back to the latter 18th century.

Along with those tools What I use to help figure things out is Eb and Flow of knowledge. Example: If you are to build a car, all cars must include certain things: An engine, a braking method, a steering method, and a place to sit or ride. Eb and Flow of knowledge helps putting the pieces together. You get the idea.

Humans have been using tools since pre-history. Some birds and some apes also use tools.

God doesn't just give everyone knowledge. One must struggle to acquire knowledge. Why does God do this?

Because humans invent gods, not the other way round. We don't know of any culture that's entirely free of supernatural beliefs. Gods may be useful psychological devices not only to provide 'explanations' for what's at that time unexplainable, but to provide a focal point for the tribe's sense of identity. The thing to note, however, is that there's no consistency between cultures as to what a supernatural being is or does ─ in other words, no evidence that humans have a capacity to view a universe that's both alternative to ours, and at the same time real.

There seems to be many bad things that happen in this world. Why does God allow that?

Why, indeed? If I see someone in peril, and it's within my power to help, and help is needed, then my first strong instinct is to help, and where I can I do. I don't think I'm anything special in that regard, it's simply what humans do.

And God, or gods, in direct contradiction of [his], or their, billing as omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent, NEVER do. [He] or they sit on [his] or their omnipotent hands and let the child drown, the house burn and kill its sleeping occupants, on and on, all day every day.

It's like gods only exist as concepts and things imagined, isn't it.

 

[DNB]

OK, so one of the qualities of God is that he is ineffable - at least to us humans and presumably not to himself...

But he is also all-powerful...

So wouldn't that mean that he is capable of explaining the mysteries of his true nature to we humans?

Which in a roundabout way would mean that he is not really necessarially ineffable?

Basically: could God ever tell us exactly how exactly he himself works? - For instance, how his mind works and how he interacts with his creation - indeed how exactly he made his creation, as in what mechanisms were employed? - could he ever tell us how exactly he went about making something out of nothing in such a way that we would actually understand?

Are humans capable of learning to understand how God works?

How can a master martial artist explain the fullness of his knowledge and capabilities, to his student who just started the discipline?
Ineffable is in regard to the human ability to understand, for example, omniscience or impeccability. Man understands knowledge and wisdom, and righteousness and guilt, but perfection in these attributes are hard to fathom to the point that we coin the term 'to be human is to err'.
Mankind comprehends many attributes of God, as it is that we are created in his Image. Therefore, it is just the magnitude of His virtues and power where that any attempt to either express, delineate or quantify the full scope and quality of these attributes will always fall short of His full glory.

 

[Brian2]

All we need to do is read the Old Testament to know what the Christian God is like. The Bible says that God ordered his followers to kill other people and wipe them off the face of the earth, and he sent a global flood to kill off the entire human race (except for Noah and his family) because he was enraged that people were sinning against him.

The flood was because people were evil.
We do people want God to do something about evil and when He does they accuse Him of being evil for doing it?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

The flood was because people were evil.
We do people want God to do something about evil and when He does they accuse Him of being evil for doing it?

According to the Bible, God creates evil (Isaiah 45:7). If the Bible is accurate, then it's incredibly irrational and absurd of God to get all morally indignant and angry about evil and kill off humanity for something he's personally responsible for in the first place. If he truly is all-knowing (Psalm 139:1-6; Isaiah 46:9-10; 1 John 3:20), all-powerful (Psalm 147:5; Job 42:2; Daniel 2:21), and is present everywhere simultaneously (Psalm 139:7-10; Isaiah 40:12; Colossians 1:17), then it stands to reason that he had foreknowledge that humanity would fall into sin and become morally corrupt. And despite having this foreknowledge, he creates Adam and Eve anyway, knowing full well that they will be tempted by the apple from the Tree of Life, they will disobey him, they will sin against him, and he will curse the rest of humanity for Adam's sin. In essence, God holds the rest of humanity morally responsible for Adam's sin, and he punishes every person born afterward for a sin that they didn't commit and had no control over. IMV, God punishing people born after Adam and Eve for a sin they didn't commit is sadistic and heinous. I can't speak for anyone else, but that's not a loving, merciful God to me.

As a matter of fact, Isaiah 45:7 is pretty clear that God admitted to creating evil.

KJV: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Evil:
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked, 2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful, 3. Characterized by or indicating misfortune; ominous.

NIV: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Disaster:
1. An occurrence causing widespread destruction and distress; a catastrophe; 2. A grave misfortune, and 3. A total failure.

ESV: "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."

Calamity: 1. An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster, 2. Dire distress resulting from loss or tragedy; 3. Any great misfortune or cause of misery; in general, any event or disaster which produces extensive evils, as loss of crops, earthquakes, etc., but also applied to any misfortune which brings great distress on a person; misfortune; distress; adversity.

 

[Bird123]

There used to be an argument whether a model bird found in an Egyptian tomb is intended to be a toy glider or is only accidentally so.
Our systematic enquiry into electricity including lightning goes back to the latter 18th century.
Humans have been using tools since pre-history. Some birds and some apes also use tools.
Because humans invent gods, not the other way round. We don't know of any culture that's entirely free of supernatural beliefs. Gods may be useful psychological devices not only to provide 'explanations' for what's at that time unexplainable, but to provide a focal point for the tribe's sense of identity. The thing to note, however, is that there's no consistency between cultures as to what a supernatural being is or does ─ in other words, no evidence that humans have a capacity to view a universe that's both alternative to ours, and at the same time real.
Why, indeed? If I see someone in peril, and it's within my power to help, and help is needed, then my first strong instinct is to help, and where I can I do. I don't think I'm anything special in that regard, it's simply what humans do.

And God, or gods, in direct contradiction of [his], or their, billing as omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent, NEVER do. [He] or they sit on [his] or their omnipotent hands and let the child drown, the house burn and kill its sleeping occupants, on and on, all day every day.

It's like gods only exist as concepts and things imagined, isn't it.

Did mankind really invent God? Didn't mankind do what they have always done: formulate Beliefs in an effort to understand. Mankind does this in all areas with all subjects. On the other hand, some will venture into undiscovered country to Discover the Truth instead of clinging to mere beliefs.

A Being capable of creating all this has to be very Intelligent. In order to Understand, you must reach and expand your thinking to a Higher Level. If you Understood the purpose of this world, the goal for the people, and how sometimes allowing bad things to happen is the best choice, your view would change.

The answers run deeper than on the mere surface. On the other hand, if I am capable of Discovering these things, I think everyone is capable of Discovering something.

Perhaps the first step is merely seeking. Using that Intelligence would be the next step. I have pointed the direction to many people. Perhaps, I should point for only those who seek. On the other hand, one is always capable of deciding to seek at any moment.

God is actually Someone. Since God doesn't just hand out knowledge, those who seek must do the work necessary to Discover God instead of accepting, rejecting, and depending or being satisfied with beliefs.

God isn't making laws or rules for people. Everyone is free to choose and seek what they wish. Let your passion and need to know point the way to you want to Discover.

Be who you must. It's a part of the plan!! This is no problem for God. You see, Intelligence exists far beyond that of mankind. For now, we are but mere ants.

So much is said about God that simply isn't true. Perhaps, those who seek should forget all they have been told about God and start with a clean slate. Discover what is instead of what's believed.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!