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God Forgives...

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"God forgives" who taught you this misconception ?
For example: A did something wrong with B.
Its B who can forgive A, NOT God.
And, also don't forget that -- GOD reside within everybody.
Its bit tricky to understand :)
Ah, Chinu, you are back after a long time! Everything OK around your place? Is it tricky or it is something that we imagine? Presently, are you in the theist camp or in the atheist camp? Have you made any change in your affiliation - like we say in India - Dal Badal, Aya Ram Gaya Ram (Join another political party, I do not mean Dal Baadal :)).
 

chinu

chinu
Ah, Chinu, you are back after a long time! Everything OK around your place?
Ya, its all OK around me.
Presently, are you in the theist camp or in the atheist camp?
Both :)

Have you made any change in your affiliation - like we say in India - Dal Badal, Aya Ram Gaya Ram (Join another political party, I do not mean Dal Baadal :)).
Seriously saying, politics is not much of interest for me :)

Btw, what about you, Aupmanyav ? I missed chatting with you. :)
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
As a non believer in god or gods it surprises me how many times i hear the phrase "god forgives". It seems to me to be a cop out from morality. Essentially saying i can get away with whatever i want and god will forgive me...

An example...

On the previous (now defunct) forum i frequented there was a guy. Those members here who frequented that old place will know who i mean, I'm not mentioning any names...

He was a manager or supervisor at the place he worked, it seems his job gave him huge amounts of time to chat online, he was one if the most prolific posters. Then suddenly he disappeared, his posting stopped. Approximately 6 weeks later he was back to copious posting.

I asked where he had been, the story he gave was.

I lost my job for stealing internet bandwidth. I know it was wrong and i prayed to god to forgive my crime. God forgave me.

He got a new job, and guess what. He began immediately stealing the company's bandwidth.

My question is why?

Why would he assume his god forgives theft?

Why would he assume it is ok for him to repeat his crime because his god forgave him?
If a believer do make a wrong action, speech or thought according to the teaching if his/her religion, to actually be forgiven, one has to change how one act, speak or think so not to do the wrong again.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I believe that in dharmic religions, there is less slippery slope, because of karma. If you truly believe in karma, you suffer the consequences, whether you want to or not.
Yeah, even a sage like Bharata had to be reborn as a simpleton.
Even Yudhisthira had to lose his small finger when he was going to heaven with his physical body, the only one to do that, for the reason that he had spoken a lie in his life.
And King Dasaratha, father of Lord Rama, had to suffer separation from him because of a wrong act.
From a Hindi devotional song by Kabir:
"Karam gati tāre tare na re bhai" (O Brother, the result of our actions can not ever be avoided however hared one may try).

 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Btw, what about you, Aupmanyav ? I missed chatting with you. :)
Ah! We Indians have missed so many things due to this Chinese disease. Did not get a proper hair-cut for months and had to remain without cigarettes. But otherwise OK.
 
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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
"God forgives" who taught you this misconception ?

For example: A did something wrong with B.
Its B who can forgive A, NOT God.

And, also don't forget that -- GOD reside within everybody.

Its bit tricky to understand :)


Tell that to the religiously faithful who use god forgives for atrocious behaviour
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I've never really understood the forgiveness thing.

How about if it were called self-forgiveness in the form of a brief ritual that involves muttering a few words to the ceiling fan with eyes closed and head bowed, and the matter were settled with no need to apologize to ones victim if one chooses not to? Does the motivation seem more clear now?

It's a get out of immorality jail free card. It's forgiveness on demand. I don't recall anybody ever reporting that they asked for forgiveness and were turned down. If I did, I would assume that I was dealing with a person so wracked with guilt that he was unwilling to forgive himself.

In 12-step programs, which are often religious in their tenor, one is asked to make amends to those he has harmed. But not in this system. There is no need to seek forgiveness from one's victim, or even to apologize. In fact, how often have we heard the equivalent of, "God forgives him" implying that only that matters, and you should also forgive unless you think that you are better than God or want to challenge His judgment.

I like this:

"Let's say somebody goes around and rapes and murders somebody, and after they're done, they get saved. What's the punishment for them? This is the problem with Christian religion. It establishes unrealistic and irrational and immoral criteria by which to live. And then it creates a loophole so that you don't ever have to be responsible for those actions. Christianity is not a moral system. It is an immoral system. Because it specifically says that there aren't necessarily consequences that you have to pay because of a loophole. And what is the loophole? It has nothing to do with how good you are or how morally you act. It has to do with whether you are willing to be a sycophant to an idea. And if you are, then there is an exception by which you no longer have to suffer a penalty for this." - Matt Dillahunty
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Why would he assume his god forgives theft?

Why would he assume it is ok for him to repeat his crime because his god forgave him?

As you said, probably God is just an excuse but he actually doesn't believe in a God at all.

You never know. One just has to take his word for it.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
If a believer do make a wrong action, speech or thought according to the teaching if his/her religion, to actually be forgiven, one has to change how one act, speak or think so not to do the wrong again.

Nice but it rare seems to work that way
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Why should I go and tell them ? They didn't asked any such question on RF, did they ?

But, you asked on RF, isn't ? :)

Because its the religiously faithful who use the god excuse ro excuse themselves.

Interestingly, no they don't ask any such question, i wonder why?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
As a non believer in god or gods it surprises me how many times i hear the phrase "god forgives". It seems to me to be a cop out from morality. Essentially saying i can get away with whatever i want and god will forgive me...
That's when you skip Sunday school too often, you only get half of the message.
Christian moral is a bit more consistent than this straw man. (Though I grant you that it is used by wannabe Christians and even after applying the complexity the system is still wanting.)
There are two steps between sin and forgiveness: repentance and atonement. In your example the guy said he knew it was wrong (repentance) but did he pay the company for bandwidth and lost working time (atonement)?
And that is the second thing: god forgives the sin but society has to forgive the crime.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
That's when you skip Sunday school too often, you only get half of the message.
Christian moral is a bit more consistent than this straw man. (Though I grant you that it is used by wannabe Christians and even after applying the complexity the system is still wanting.)
There are two steps between sin and forgiveness: repentance and atonement. In your example the guy said he knew it was wrong (repentance) but did he pay the company for bandwidth and lost working time (atonement)?
And that is the second thing: god forgives the sin but society has to forgive the crime.

The guy in question is a devout Christian so no straw man required. And its not as though its the only example i know of
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I've thought about this before too. It makes me wonder if the contract with Jesus is only with Christians, and atheists who live a good life may have some other form of heaven or bliss - just not necessarily given from Jesus.

The covenant is for those who accept the Covenant. Those that do not accept it are judged by God without the Covenant. Those who accept it are judged by God as people in the Covenant.
It is up to Jesus do know who is and is not in the Covenant.
Those who know Him are in it and it should be evidenced in their lives.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I believe that in dharmic religions, there is less slippery slope, because of karma. If you truly believe in karma, you suffer the consequences, whether you want to or not.

No, if Karma is true you suffer the consequences whether you want to or not.
In Christianity God is the judge and determines each person's Karma or forgives them of that Karma.
If people want to escape the Karma cycle is that because of fear of consequences?
Do you think it is a trap that Dharmic religions say that we all eventually make it and so some people would just cruise from one life to the next thinking that eventually they will get there? Then of course they might find that there is no other life to be born into.
Is it that Buddha was sinless and so had no Karma to fulfil or is gaining enlightenment a ticket out of the rebirth cycle?
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
It has always been a great flaw in many religions.
You can be a murderer and a rapist but if you find Jesus in the last hours of your life and repent all your sins - you get into heaven.
BUT
If you are a well behaved, charitable atheist, then you can't get in.
That's always been killer argument for me, no question. It is just so monstrously unfair that it argues all by itself that either THAT God does not exist, or THAT God is a monster.
 
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