God Forgives...

[Altfish]

The main spiritual danger of sin is that it hardens the heart away from prevenient grace. Without which conversion is impossible.

It is likely that a person who lives a life of obstinate sin will be too hardened to convert at death. More likely they will die cursing God. But even if God does grant the obstinate sinner the means to convert in their last hours, they will nonetheless have much to atone for in the purgatorial fires.

What is 'grace'? What on earth is 'prevenient grace'?
The only Grace I know was lead singer with Jefferson Airplane.

Salvation is not gained by being a nice person, it is gained by cooperation with grace. And to hold to atheism until your dying breath is to die uncooperative with grace. You cannot cooperate with God while denying his existence.

Then I would not want it.
I can assure you that I will hold my atheism until my dying breath.
It is not a very good screening system for heaven, is it? You are going to end up with a lot of compliant, thoughtless people in there.

 

[ChristineM]

It is not that simple. There is no forgiveness without repentance and repentance demands contrition. To count on the mercy of God without a sincere effort to keep the commandments is the sin of presumption. Mercy is for those who stumble not for those who continue in willful sin.

It seems to me that christians generally claim their god is on their side and always count on his mercy, whatever that is.

I perceive this as a flaw of American Protestantism, which in practice is often reduced to gospel of cheap grace. The idea that you can be certain of divine forgiveness without sacramental absolution (which presumes a firm purpose to amend your ways) is alien to the majority of the world's Christians.

I perceive it as a flaw in christianity in general, certainly all christians i know presume heaven awaits them.

It isn't though. Yes, the gospel does present a god who is quick to mercy. But it also warns of a god who will demand from us an account of our lives. Indeed, for every idle word. What you are describing is called presumption which as I said before is itself a sin. A sin that I would argue is innate to the theology certain brands of Protestantism, that is, the 'once saved always saved' kind.

Christianity seems to presume much, right across the various brands of christianity

 

[Glaurung]

What is 'grace'? What on earth is 'prevenient grace'?
The only Grace I know was lead singer with Jefferson Airplane.

Grace is the unmerited help of God. Prevenient grace is that unmerited help which proceeds any act of human will and allows it (if cooperated with) to perform salutary acts. (Acts lead to salvation).

I can assure you that I will hold my atheism until my dying breath.

And God will allow you to.

It is not a very good screening system for heaven, is it? You are going to end up with a lot of compliant, thoughtless people in there.

In Heaven, should I make it, I expect to spend eternity face to face with the infinite. Eternity in indescribable love.

In Hell, should I die in the rejection of God, I expect to spend eternity in a dark chasm, insane with pain and hatred forever denied the ability to feel even the mildest love. For God or anyone else.

 

[Altfish]

Grace is the unmerited help of God. Prevenient grace is that unmerited help which proceeds any act of human will and allows it (if cooperated with) to perform salutary acts. (Acts lead to salvation).


And God will allow you to.


In Heaven, should I make it, I expect to spend eternity face to face with the infinite. Eternity in indescribable love.

In Hell, should I die in the rejection of God, I expect to spend eternity in a dark chasm, insane with pain and hatred forever denied the ability to feel even the mildest love. For God or anyone else.

How on earth can someone who thinks that God and Heaven are inventions do anything but reject them both?

I can do charitable, merciful acts without assistance from a god.
I don't want eternity, my 2 score years and 10 (Hopefully a bit more) are fine - then pass the baton onto the next generation.

 

[ChristineM]

How on earth can someone who thinks that God and Heaven are inventions do anything but reject them both?

I can do charitable, merciful acts without assistance from a god.
I don't want eternity, my 2 score years and 10 (Hopefully a bit more) are fine - then pass the baton onto the next generation.

3 score, please...

 

[Glaurung]

It seems to me that christians generally claim their god is on their side and always count on his mercy, whatever that is.

You can count on the mercy of God. But the mercy of God presupposes a genuine attempt to live by the commandments. Many are under the delusion that they can live carnal, worldly lives and maintain an assurance of salvation, but anyone who has actually read Scripture knows that is not the case. Matthew 7:21-23

I perceive it as a flaw in christianity in general, certainly all christians i know presume heaven awaits them.

Not if they die in mortal sin it doesn't. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Also, are these the words of someone who presumes his salvation?

In Heaven, should I make it, I expect to spend eternity face to face with the infinite. Eternity in indescribable love. In Hell, should I die in the rejection of God, I expect to spend eternity in a dark chasm, insane with pain and hatred forever denied the ability to feel even the mildest love. For God or anyone else.​

I don't know if I God will grant me final perseverance (that is death in sanctifying grace). But I certainly hope for it.

How on earth can someone who thinks that God and Heaven are inventions do anything but reject them both?

I know this will outrage a lot of people, but I don't believe there is such a thing as a truly sincere atheism. Romans 1:19-20

 

[Altfish]

3 score, please...

Ooops, big fingers

 

[Altfish]

I know this will outrage a lot of people, but I don't believe there is such a thing as a truly sincere atheism. Romans 1:19-20

Quoting The Bible to disprove atheism ... great idea.

 

[ChristineM]

You can count on the mercy of God. But the mercy of God presupposes a genuine attempt to live by the commandments. Many are under the delusion that they can live carnal, worldly lives and maintain an assurance of salvation, but anyone who has actually read Scripture knows that is not the case. Matthew 7:21-23


Not if they die in mortal sin it doesn't. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Also, are these the words of someone who presumes his salvation?

In Heaven, should I make it, I expect to spend eternity face to face with the infinite. Eternity in indescribable love. In Hell, should I die in the rejection of God, I expect to spend eternity in a dark chasm, insane with pain and hatred forever denied the ability to feel even the mildest love. For God or anyone else.​

I don't know if I God will grant me final perseverance (that is death in sanctifying grace). But I certainly hope for it.


I know this will outrage a lot of people, but I don't believe there is such a thing as a truly sincere atheism. Romans 1:19-20

And i don't believe there is such a thing as a truly sincere christian. In that i go from personal experience.

As for sincere atheism. I have never yet seen any evidence of a god, so ill leave that to you to come up with some

 

[Brian2]

John 14:6 Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. ... To be accepted into heaven you must admit you're a sinner, ask for forgiveness, admit that Jesus died for your sins and rose again, and ask Him to have a relationship with you

It does not say that it says that you cannot get to the Father accept through Jesus.
Even if you do not believe in Jesus now and receive forgiveness of you have to go through the judgement by Jesus after death and so for anyone it is only through Jesus.

 

[Brian2]

..... and also to be 'accepted to live on earth' one must admit sinning and thus repent - 2 Peter 3:9
Eternal life on earth just as Jesus promised that humble meek people will inherit the earth - Psalms 37:9-11
So, besides heaven for some, the majority of people are offered everlasting life on earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.

We don't know what Adam was offered.

 

[Brian2]

Seeking forgiveness can look rather self-indulgent. Why not just take responsibility, and live with the guilt?

The consequences of sin is death.
There is more to it than forgiveness, there is eternal life that is on offer.
Christians can live with guilt if they want to however but forgiveness is a great thing to have and to give. We forgive (or should forgive others) just as we have been forgiven. God won't forgive people who do not forgive.

 

[Altfish]

It does not say that it says that you cannot get to the Father accept through Jesus.
Even if you do not believe in Jesus now and receive forgiveness of you have to go through the judgement by Jesus after death and so for anyone it is only through Jesus.

Great system

 

[IndigoChild5559]

As a non believer in god or gods it surprises me how many times i hear the phrase "god forgives". It seems to me to be a cop out from morality. Essentially saying i can get away with whatever i want and god will forgive me...

In Judaism you are required to go to the person you wronged and make things right with them first before you go to God.

 

[Link]

In Judaism you are required to go to the person you wronged and make things right with them first before you go to God.

In Islam, it is said you have to get forgiveness of those who you wronged as well, but I don't think hardly anyone does it.