God, Free-will, and the knowledge of God - Is his knowledge causation?

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

Existing as a probability is completly distinct from actually existing.

The word “probability” gets used for re-interpreting quantum mechanics in terms of classical mechanics.

We’re trying to make sense of QM with brains designed by Chuck for quite different purposes than probing the ultimate nature of reality.

Our brains rather directly perceive Newtonian physics, so that we can avoid being eaten before we have and raise children for the next generation.

Sometimes, your gut gets Newtonian physics right, and sometimes your gut gets it wrong, because your gut is trapped in your body, which was designed by Chuck.

It is worth noting that when heat is given off, molecules move faster, since they are accelerated by a force acting over a distance.

Chuck didn’t design our guts to realize that, because Chuck trapped our brains inside of our bodies.

Work From Home (Physics Version) | A Capella Science​

 

[Koldo]

Not if we accept the Many Worlds interpretation of QM it isn’t.

Do you?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If one views God as indifferent, leaving the mechanisms of nature to run on automatic, harsh and cruel as they may, that would explain a great deal.

A universe that appears to be on autopilot is just as well explained by leaving gods out. And yes, the world is so much more comprehensible from that perspective. The belief in a tri-omni god that judges and punishes creates philosophical problems like the one this thread is about - is free will compatible with omniscience? - that only exist for those committed to concept that man has free will.

In the case of the Abrahamist, whose god fits the above description, he needs his god to be all-knowing and fair at the same time, but that's not possible if one describes a god that foresees everything before he creates it and then punishes its creation for being whet it made them and always knew that they must be. And so he is forced to simply say that man has free will anyway even if that is incompatible with perfect omniscience. He says that they ARE compatible and calls that position compatibilism, but that doesn't help the argument.

But for the atheist, there's no insurmountable problem here at all. Maybe there is free will and the universe is not compelled to unfold one way. Or maybe the opposite is the case. It may be difficult to decide between these, but they're both coherent positions. The theist who wants to keep both omniscience and free will is forced to take an incoherent position and simply insist that it's possible anyway without an argument, or with spurious arguments:

The main point is that God's foreknowledge is not the cause of anything that happens, including our choices.

Why do you want to make that point? Nobody seems to be arguing it. Suppose this god exists and does know the future perfectly. Suppose it could download that knowledge to you or me. Now we know the future perfectly, but we are not claiming to be the cause of that future - just that it IS caused deterministically.

According to Abrahamic religion, unlike for you and me, that god is ALSO the cause of what happens. But none of that is relevant to whether free will and omniscience are compatible. It's a deflection from that discussion that doesn't help resolve it.

knowledge is not causation

There it is again. This is standard in the toolbox of those making your argument.

thus we do have free-will.

This does not follow from your last comment.

Even atheists argue for compatibilism.

That doesn't strengthen the argument. Nobody should be arguing for compatibilism. It indicates to me that such an atheist has an irresistible intuition that his will his free while understanding that even quantum indeterminacy cannot generate free will. He has the same problem as the Abrahamic theist, but his barrier is not an ideology, but rather, a psychological state that he cannot transcend.

Let's take a moment about what we're claiming is the case when we say that man has free will. Most people mean that they have desires and if able, will freely make them reality. Thus, my hypothalamus detects relative dehydration and sends a message of thirst to the subject of consciousness, which then goes for a drink. If that's what you mean by free will, THAT is compatible with determinism, but it's what some call the illusion of free will. We don't know whether we could have had any other will, nor whether we could have acted any other way.

But if we mean that the self is the author of that desire rather than a passive recipient of unseen brain circuits like the hypothalamus and dorsomedial prefrontal cortex, and that it actually could have chosen otherwise rather than that it feels like it could have - that's what I mean by free will - then we may not have that. That may not be possible.

But some will simply insist that they have free will anyway because their will feels free and because their theology or intuition cause them to insist that free will must exist even if they also believe a god knows every desire and every choice before they do.

We may in fact be those robots that many theists say that their god doesn't want and didn't create. If so, we're blissfully unaware of that as we deterministically go about fulfilling a preordained destiny feeling fully free and feeling as if we are the author of our desires and could have acted otherwise. If that's how reality is, then I'm good with that. But the Abrahamist cannot accept that for ideological reasons, and apparently, neither can the atheistic compatibilist, apparently because his intuition rejects the possibility that his will might not be free.

mathematically one could perceive of a 4D being while we are 3D (dimensional). This is just to conceptualize God's view of our time.

This is just an explanation for omniscience, not an argument for the coexistence of free will.

 

[wellwisher]

I wished to address this point because it's a very common objection to God's knowledge and Free-will. It's predominantly an Atheistic argument but some theists also find it confusing.

The problem with this is we see time as linear. We don't really know what's gonna happen tomorrow. We don't know what choices we will make tomorrow. But God sitting here with us today knows what choices we are gonna do tomorrow. Thus, are we truly making choices when God knows already?

The first point is that, even with this simplistic view, even if God is sitting with us today, and God has knowledge of tomorrow, knowledge is not causation, thus we do have free-will. The choices are not already made for us. We are gonna make the choices. This response is typically a theological response which is made in a philosophical manner. This is also Christian/Islamic argument. In Islamic traditions they called it Cadhr.

The second point is, mathematically one could perceive of a 4D being while we are 3D (dimensional). This is just to conceptualize God's view of our time. A big problem with the argument above is the anthropomorphism. God is not really sitting with us as a man today. God is a transcended being and he transcends time.

A 4D being who is not bound by time perceives time as just another dimension, similar to how we perceive spatial dimensions. Unlike us, who experience time linearly (past, present, future), this being can see all moments in time simultaneously. Imagine how a 3D being can see an entire 2D plane at once; similarly, a 4D being sees our entire timeline at once. They are not moving through time but can observe and interact with any point in time as easily as we move through space.

The rest is just a read that explains this 3D/4D beings. Not necessary to read but just left there for anyone who wants to.

Mathematical Concept​

1. Dimensions: In mathematics, dimensions refer to the number of coordinates needed to specify a point in a space. For example:
   • 3D Space: A point in 3D space is defined by three coordinates (x, y, z).
   • 4D Space: A point in 4D space is defined by four coordinates (x, y, z, w).
2. Time in Physics: In physics, particularly in the theory of relativity, time is often treated as the fourth dimension, leading to the concept of spacetime, where events are described by four coordinates (x, y, z, t).

4D Being and Time​

• 4D Space with Spatial Dimensions: If we consider a fourth spatial dimension (w) rather than time (t), a 4D being would perceive space as having four dimensions: (x, y, z, w).
• Perception of Time: For a 4D being, time (t) might be perceived as a static dimension, like a spatial dimension. This means they can see the entire timeline (past, present, future) simultaneously.

Visualization and Interaction​

• 2D Analogy: Imagine a 2D being on a flat plane (x, y). We, as 3D beings, can see their entire plane at once. Similarly, a 4D being can see our entire 3D space (x, y, z) and our timeline (t) at once.
• Mathematical Representation: An event in our 3D space over time is represented as (x, y, z, t). A 4D being might represent an event with an additional spatial coordinate: (x, y, z, w).

The concept of a 4D being not bound by time can be understood mathematically by considering time as an additional dimension that this being perceives all at once, much like we perceive spatial dimensions.

So that's the concept of God's transcendence. He knows that's gonna happen because from his perspective, he sees time as a line below him which he could access. He can see and interact with the future as he pleases just like the mathematical concept of a 4D being. So what's gonna happen in our perspective has already happened in a 4D beings perspective. So we have already done it. That's why he knows. And that's why we still have free-will.

Cheers.

Free will and choice is connected to the seventh day of Creation, when God was resting. In the Human Sabbath Day, one is not supposed to work. As God rested, humans had free will and choice; subjectivity, since God was not at work micromanaging them. According to the rules of the Sabbath, if work needs to be done, you need to contract others to do the work for you. In the case of the creation, Satan was put in charge of the humans during the Sabbath. Provisions had been made in the Garden of Eden on the sixth day. Knowledge of Good and Evil is subjective since the rules do not stand the test of time, like natural laws.

Free will was/is the ability to make choices apart from the natural design. This includes choices apart from natural human instinct. People can choose to alter their sex in modern times. The is not part of natural design for humans, or that capability would have naturally evolved and one would not need artificial choices like medicine and surgery, that are also not a natural part of the evolutionary design.

For example, in bible symbolism Adam, to practice will and choice, is told by God, to name the plants and animals; like lion, tiger and oak tree. The spoken sound or name was arbitrary and does not alter the natural design. This added subjective choices. In modern times, there are 7200 human languages, meaning the choice of sounds for alphabets to label reality with compound sounds, is totally arbitrary and is not based on any natural cause and effect, such as is contained within natural design; laws of nature. The force of gravity exists apart from its name or names, since the name; sound, is arbitrary and subjective and subject to choice. However, the phenomena called gravity is separate from the sound we make to describe it; General Relativity.

Manmade and artificial objects are part of human creation and willful choices in terms of how to rearrange natural forces and matter to form new things that did not or do not naturally form from the natural creation. We will not find metallic aluminum in nature where there is an oxygen environment since Aluminum and oxygen are very reactive and forms aluminum oxide; sandpaper grit. However, through choices in science, involving harnessing electricity, we can make metallic aluminum and even anodize it to make the metal resistant to oxygen.

To use a math concept, to express subjectivity and all the choice options that go beyond the natural laws of space-time, is for time and space to being able to act as two independent variables, and not always be connected as space-time. If I could move in space, apart from time, I could be omnipresent. This is not possible in space-time which is constrained to the speed of light. But if we could separate space and time, and hold time constant, so we only change space, we can be in more than one place in stopped time.

This was unknowingly documented with the invention of photography in about 1822. There is an effect called motion blur, that results if the shutter speed of the camera, that stops the action, is slower than the action speed. Since the still picture stops time, the difference in speed, appears as uncertainty in distance due to v*=d*/t with t=0. From this uncertainty in position, we can sense movement in time, without time. The blur are all the subjective choices, of that that same point in photographic time, that also contains the clarity of the natural design in space-time. It appears the human brain can process data in a way that can simulate independent space and independent time; free will.

 

[Audie]

I wished to address this point because it's a very common objection to God's knowledge and Free-will. It's predominantly an Atheistic argument but some theists also find it confusing.

The problem with this is we see time as linear. We don't really know what's gonna happen tomorrow. We don't know what choices we will make tomorrow. But God sitting here with us today knows what choices we are gonna do tomorrow. Thus, are we truly making choices when God knows already?

The first point is that, even with this simplistic view, even if God is sitting with us today, and God has knowledge of tomorrow, knowledge is not causation, thus we do have free-will. The choices are not already made for us. We are gonna make the choices. This response is typically a theological response which is made in a philosophical manner. This is also Christian/Islamic argument. In Islamic traditions they called it Cadhr.

The second point is, mathematically one could perceive of a 4D being while we are 3D (dimensional). This is just to conceptualize God's view of our time. A big problem with the argument above is the anthropomorphism. God is not really sitting with us as a man today. God is a transcended being and he transcends time.

A 4D being who is not bound by time perceives time as just another dimension, similar to how we perceive spatial dimensions. Unlike us, who experience time linearly (past, present, future), this being can see all moments in time simultaneously. Imagine how a 3D being can see an entire 2D plane at once; similarly, a 4D being sees our entire timeline at once. They are not moving through time but can observe and interact with any point in time as easily as we move through space.

The rest is just a read that explains this 3D/4D beings. Not necessary to read but just left there for anyone who wants to.

Mathematical Concept​

1. Dimensions: In mathematics, dimensions refer to the number of coordinates needed to specify a point in a space. For example:
   • 3D Space: A point in 3D space is defined by three coordinates (x, y, z).
   • 4D Space: A point in 4D space is defined by four coordinates (x, y, z, w).
2. Time in Physics: In physics, particularly in the theory of relativity, time is often treated as the fourth dimension, leading to the concept of spacetime, where events are described by four coordinates (x, y, z, t).

4D Being and Time​

• 4D Space with Spatial Dimensions: If we consider a fourth spatial dimension (w) rather than time (t), a 4D being would perceive space as having four dimensions: (x, y, z, w).
• Perception of Time: For a 4D being, time (t) might be perceived as a static dimension, like a spatial dimension. This means they can see the entire timeline (past, present, future) simultaneously.

Visualization and Interaction​

• 2D Analogy: Imagine a 2D being on a flat plane (x, y). We, as 3D beings, can see their entire plane at once. Similarly, a 4D being can see our entire 3D space (x, y, z) and our timeline (t) at once.
• Mathematical Representation: An event in our 3D space over time is represented as (x, y, z, t). A 4D being might represent an event with an additional spatial coordinate: (x, y, z, w).

The concept of a 4D being not bound by time can be understood mathematically by considering time as an additional dimension that this being perceives all at once, much like we perceive spatial dimensions.

So that's the concept of God's transcendence. He knows that's gonna happen because from his perspective, he sees time as a line below him which he could access. He can see and interact with the future as he pleases just like the mathematical concept of a 4D being. So what's gonna happen in our perspective has already happened in a 4D beings perspective. So we have already done it. That's why he knows. And that's why we still have free-will.

Cheers.

All based on " knowledge" of the nonexistent
unknowable.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Do you?

I try to keep an open mind, about as many things as possible

 

[RestlessSoul]

Do you?

I try to keep an open mind, about as many things as possible

 

[Audie]

I wished to address this point because it's a very common objection to God's knowledge and Free-will. It's predominantly an Atheistic argument but some theists also find it confusing.

The problem with this is we see time as linear. We don't really know what's gonna happen tomorrow. We don't know what choices we will make tomorrow. But God sitting here with us today knows what choices we are gonna do tomorrow. Thus, are we truly making choices when God knows already?

The first point is that, even with this simplistic view, even if God is sitting with us today, and God has knowledge of tomorrow, knowledge is not causation, thus we do have free-will. The choices are not already made for us. We are gonna make the choices. This response is typically a theological response which is made in a philosophical manner. This is also Christian/Islamic argument. In Islamic traditions they called it Cadhr.

The second point is, mathematically one could perceive of a 4D being while we are 3D (dimensional). This is just to conceptualize God's view of our time. A big problem with the argument above is the anthropomorphism. God is not really sitting with us as a man today. God is a transcended being and he transcends time.

A 4D being who is not bound by time perceives time as just another dimension, similar to how we perceive spatial dimensions. Unlike us, who experience time linearly (past, present, future), this being can see all moments in time simultaneously. Imagine how a 3D being can see an entire 2D plane at once; similarly, a 4D being sees our entire timeline at once. They are not moving through time but can observe and interact with any point in time as easily as we move through space.

The rest is just a read that explains this 3D/4D beings. Not necessary to read but just left there for anyone who wants to.

Mathematical Concept​

1. Dimensions: In mathematics, dimensions refer to the number of coordinates needed to specify a point in a space. For example:
   • 3D Space: A point in 3D space is defined by three coordinates (x, y, z).
   • 4D Space: A point in 4D space is defined by four coordinates (x, y, z, w).
2. Time in Physics: In physics, particularly in the theory of relativity, time is often treated as the fourth dimension, leading to the concept of spacetime, where events are described by four coordinates (x, y, z, t).

4D Being and Time​

• 4D Space with Spatial Dimensions: If we consider a fourth spatial dimension (w) rather than time (t), a 4D being would perceive space as having four dimensions: (x, y, z, w).
• Perception of Time: For a 4D being, time (t) might be perceived as a static dimension, like a spatial dimension. This means they can see the entire timeline (past, present, future) simultaneously.

Visualization and Interaction​

• 2D Analogy: Imagine a 2D being on a flat plane (x, y). We, as 3D beings, can see their entire plane at once. Similarly, a 4D being can see our entire 3D space (x, y, z) and our timeline (t) at once.
• Mathematical Representation: An event in our 3D space over time is represented as (x, y, z, t). A 4D being might represent an event with an additional spatial coordinate: (x, y, z, w).

The concept of a 4D being not bound by time can be understood mathematically by considering time as an additional dimension that this being perceives all at once, much like we perceive spatial dimensions.

So that's the concept of God's transcendence. He knows that's gonna happen because from his perspective, he sees time as a line below him which he could access. He can see and interact with the future as he pleases just like the mathematical concept of a 4D being. So what's gonna happen in our perspective has already happened in a 4D beings perspective. So we have already done it. That's why he knows. And that's why we still have free-will.

Cheers.

All based on " knowledge" of the nonexistent
unknowable.

 

[wellwisher]

I wished to address this point because it's a very common objection to God's knowledge and Free-will. It's predominantly an Atheistic argument but some theists also find it confusing.

The problem with this is we see time as linear. We don't really know what's gonna happen tomorrow. We don't know what choices we will make tomorrow. But God sitting here with us today knows what choices we are gonna do tomorrow. Thus, are we truly making choices when God knows already?

The first point is that, even with this simplistic view, even if God is sitting with us today, and God has knowledge of tomorrow, knowledge is not causation, thus we do have free-will. The choices are not already made for us. We are gonna make the choices. This response is typically a theological response which is made in a philosophical manner. This is also Christian/Islamic argument. In Islamic traditions they called it Cadhr.

The second point is, mathematically one could perceive of a 4D being while we are 3D (dimensional). This is just to conceptualize God's view of our time. A big problem with the argument above is the anthropomorphism. God is not really sitting with us as a man today. God is a transcended being and he transcends time.

A 4D being who is not bound by time perceives time as just another dimension, similar to how we perceive spatial dimensions. Unlike us, who experience time linearly (past, present, future), this being can see all moments in time simultaneously. Imagine how a 3D being can see an entire 2D plane at once; similarly, a 4D being sees our entire timeline at once. They are not moving through time but can observe and interact with any point in time as easily as we move through space.

The rest is just a read that explains this 3D/4D beings. Not necessary to read but just left there for anyone who wants to.

Mathematical Concept​

1. Dimensions: In mathematics, dimensions refer to the number of coordinates needed to specify a point in a space. For example:
   • 3D Space: A point in 3D space is defined by three coordinates (x, y, z).
   • 4D Space: A point in 4D space is defined by four coordinates (x, y, z, w).
2. Time in Physics: In physics, particularly in the theory of relativity, time is often treated as the fourth dimension, leading to the concept of spacetime, where events are described by four coordinates (x, y, z, t).

4D Being and Time​

• 4D Space with Spatial Dimensions: If we consider a fourth spatial dimension (w) rather than time (t), a 4D being would perceive space as having four dimensions: (x, y, z, w).
• Perception of Time: For a 4D being, time (t) might be perceived as a static dimension, like a spatial dimension. This means they can see the entire timeline (past, present, future) simultaneously.

Visualization and Interaction​

• 2D Analogy: Imagine a 2D being on a flat plane (x, y). We, as 3D beings, can see their entire plane at once. Similarly, a 4D being can see our entire 3D space (x, y, z) and our timeline (t) at once.
• Mathematical Representation: An event in our 3D space over time is represented as (x, y, z, t). A 4D being might represent an event with an additional spatial coordinate: (x, y, z, w).

The concept of a 4D being not bound by time can be understood mathematically by considering time as an additional dimension that this being perceives all at once, much like we perceive spatial dimensions.

So that's the concept of God's transcendence. He knows that's gonna happen because from his perspective, he sees time as a line below him which he could access. He can see and interact with the future as he pleases just like the mathematical concept of a 4D being. So what's gonna happen in our perspective has already happened in a 4D beings perspective. So we have already done it. That's why he knows. And that's why we still have free-will.

Cheers.

Free will and choice is connected to the seventh day of Creation, when God was resting. In the Human Sabbath Day, one is not supposed to work. As God rested, humans had free will and choice; subjectivity, since God was not at work micromanaging them. According to the rules of the Sabbath, if work needs to be done, you need to contract others to do the work for you. In the case of God resting after Creation, Satan was put in charge of the humans during the Sabbath rest. Provisions had been made in the Garden of Eden on the sixth day. Knowledge of Good and Evil is subjective, since those human rules do not stand the test of time, like natural laws. The good and evil law of burn witches was such an imperative at one like like instinct, but it was fake instinct that came and went.

Free will was/is the ability to make choices apart from the natural design. This includes choices apart from natural human instinct. People can choose to alter their sex in modern times. The is not part of natural design for humans, or that capability would have naturally evolved and one would not need artificial choices like medicine and surgery, that are also not a natural part of the evolutionary design.

For example, in bible symbolism Adam, to practice will and choice, is told by God, to name the plants and animals; like lion, tiger and oak tree. The spoken sound or name was arbitrary and does not alter the natural design. This added subjective choices. In modern times, there are 7200 human languages, meaning the choice of sounds for alphabets to label reality with compound sounds, is totally arbitrary and is not based on any natural cause and effect, such as is contained within natural design; laws of nature. The force of gravity exists apart from its name or names, since the name; sound, is arbitrary and subjective and subject to choice. However, the phenomena called gravity is separate from the sound we make to describe it; General Relativity.

Manmade and artificial objects are part of human creation and willful choices in terms of how to rearrange natural forces and matter to form new things that did not or do not naturally form from the natural creation. We will not find metallic aluminum in nature where there is an oxygen environment since Aluminum and oxygen are very reactive and forms aluminum oxide; sandpaper grit. However, through choices in science, involving harnessing electricity, we can make metallic aluminum and even anodize it to make the metal resistant to oxygen.

To use a math concept, to express subjectivity and all the choice options that go beyond the natural laws of space-time, is for time and space to being able to act as two independent variables, and not always be connected as space-time. If I could move in space, apart from time, I could be omnipresent. This is not possible in space-time which is constrained to the speed of light. But if we could separate space and time, and hold time constant, so we only change space, we can be in more than one place in stopped time.

This was unknowingly documented with the invention of photography in about 1822. There is an effect called motion blur, that results if the shutter speed of the camera, that stops the action, is slower than the action speed. Since the still picture stops time, the difference in speed, appears as uncertainty in distance due to Δv*=Δd*/t with t=0. From this uncertainty in position, we can sense movement in time, without time. The blur are all the subjective choices, of that same point in photographic time, that also contains the clarity of the natural design in space-time. It appears the human brain can process data in a way that can simulate independent space and independent time; free will.

 

[sayak83]

But if all possible futures and all possible histories exist as probabilities emanating from all possible time co-ordinates, all futures may already exist, remaining hidden from most perspectives.

In this model, determinism and free will can easily co-exist, as can the concept of an omniscient consciousness, that is uncontrained by temporal dimensions.

If we are a multiverse where all possibilities are actualized in one branch or another, then yes in a way.
But it is also deterministic in the sense that "every thing that can happen will happen somewhere."

 

[sayak83]

But if all possible futures and all possible histories exist as probabilities emanating from all possible time co-ordinates, all futures may already exist, remaining hidden from most perspectives.

In this model, determinism and free will can easily co-exist, as can the concept of an omniscient consciousness, that is uncontrained by temporal dimensions.

If we are a multiverse where all possibilities are actualized in one branch or another, then yes in a way.
But it is also deterministic in the sense that "every thing that can happen will happen somewhere."

 

[wellwisher]

I wished to address this point because it's a very common objection to God's knowledge and Free-will. It's predominantly an Atheistic argument but some theists also find it confusing.

The problem with this is we see time as linear. We don't really know what's gonna happen tomorrow. We don't know what choices we will make tomorrow. But God sitting here with us today knows what choices we are gonna do tomorrow. Thus, are we truly making choices when God knows already?

The first point is that, even with this simplistic view, even if God is sitting with us today, and God has knowledge of tomorrow, knowledge is not causation, thus we do have free-will. The choices are not already made for us. We are gonna make the choices. This response is typically a theological response which is made in a philosophical manner. This is also Christian/Islamic argument. In Islamic traditions they called it Cadhr.

The second point is, mathematically one could perceive of a 4D being while we are 3D (dimensional). This is just to conceptualize God's view of our time. A big problem with the argument above is the anthropomorphism. God is not really sitting with us as a man today. God is a transcended being and he transcends time.

A 4D being who is not bound by time perceives time as just another dimension, similar to how we perceive spatial dimensions. Unlike us, who experience time linearly (past, present, future), this being can see all moments in time simultaneously. Imagine how a 3D being can see an entire 2D plane at once; similarly, a 4D being sees our entire timeline at once. They are not moving through time but can observe and interact with any point in time as easily as we move through space.

The rest is just a read that explains this 3D/4D beings. Not necessary to read but just left there for anyone who wants to.

Mathematical Concept​

1. Dimensions: In mathematics, dimensions refer to the number of coordinates needed to specify a point in a space. For example:
   • 3D Space: A point in 3D space is defined by three coordinates (x, y, z).
   • 4D Space: A point in 4D space is defined by four coordinates (x, y, z, w).
2. Time in Physics: In physics, particularly in the theory of relativity, time is often treated as the fourth dimension, leading to the concept of spacetime, where events are described by four coordinates (x, y, z, t).

4D Being and Time​

• 4D Space with Spatial Dimensions: If we consider a fourth spatial dimension (w) rather than time (t), a 4D being would perceive space as having four dimensions: (x, y, z, w).
• Perception of Time: For a 4D being, time (t) might be perceived as a static dimension, like a spatial dimension. This means they can see the entire timeline (past, present, future) simultaneously.

Visualization and Interaction​

• 2D Analogy: Imagine a 2D being on a flat plane (x, y). We, as 3D beings, can see their entire plane at once. Similarly, a 4D being can see our entire 3D space (x, y, z) and our timeline (t) at once.
• Mathematical Representation: An event in our 3D space over time is represented as (x, y, z, t). A 4D being might represent an event with an additional spatial coordinate: (x, y, z, w).

The concept of a 4D being not bound by time can be understood mathematically by considering time as an additional dimension that this being perceives all at once, much like we perceive spatial dimensions.

So that's the concept of God's transcendence. He knows that's gonna happen because from his perspective, he sees time as a line below him which he could access. He can see and interact with the future as he pleases just like the mathematical concept of a 4D being. So what's gonna happen in our perspective has already happened in a 4D beings perspective. So we have already done it. That's why he knows. And that's why we still have free-will.

Cheers.

Free will and choice is connected to the seventh day of Creation, when God was resting and humans were making bad choices. In the Human Sabbath Day, one is not supposed to work. As God rested, humans had more access to free will and choice; subjectivity, since God was not at work micromanaging them. According to the rules of the Sabbath, if work needs to be done, you need to contract others to do the work for you. In the case of God resting after Creation, Satan was put in charge of the humans during the Sabbath rest; Lord of the Earth. Provisions had been made in the Garden of Eden on the sixth day. Knowledge of Good and Evil is subjective, since human rules do not stand the test of time, like natural laws. The good and evil law of burning witches, was such an imperative at one time, like a faux instinct, but it was fake instinct that came and went.

Free will was/is the ability to make choices apart from the natural design. This includes choices apart from natural human instinct. People can choose to alter their sex in modern times. The is not part of natural design for humans, or that capability would have naturally evolved and one would not need artificial choices like medicine and surgery, that are also not a natural part of the evolutionary design.

For example, in bible symbolism Adam, to learn and practice will and choice, is told by God, to name the plants and animals; like lion, tiger and oak tree. The spoken sound or name was arbitrary and does not alter the natural design. This added subjective choices. In modern times, there are 7200 human languages, meaning the choice of sounds for alphabets to label reality with compound sounds, is totally arbitrary and is not based on any natural cause and effect, such as is contained within natural design; laws of nature. The force of gravity exists apart from its name or names, since the name; sound, is arbitrary and subjective and subject to choice. However, the phenomena called gravity is separate from the sound we make to describe it; General Relativity.

Manmade and artificial objects are part of human creation and willful choices in terms of how to rearrange natural forces and matter to form new things that did not or do not naturally form from the natural creation. We will not find metallic aluminum in nature where there is an oxygen environment since Aluminum and oxygen are very reactive and forms aluminum oxide; sandpaper grit. However, through choices in science, involving harnessing electricity, we can make metallic aluminum and even anodize it to make the metal resistant to oxygen.

To use a math concept, to express subjectivity and all the choice options that go beyond the natural laws of space-time, is for time and space to being able to also act as two independent variables, and not always be connected as space-time. If I could move in space, apart from time, I could be omnipresent. This is not possible in space-time which is constrained to the speed of light. But if we could separate space and time, and hold time constant, so we only change space, we can be in more than one place in stopped time.

This was unknowingly documented with the invention of photography in about 1822. There is an effect called motion blur, that results if the shutter speed of the camera, that stops the action, is slower than the action speed. Since the still picture stops time, the difference in speed, appears as uncertainty in distance due to Δv*=Δd*/t with t=0. From this uncertainty in position, we can sense movement in time, without time. The blur are all the subjective choices, of that same point in photographic time, that also contains the clarity of the natural design in space-time. It appears the human brain can process data in a way that can simulate independent space and independent time; free will in space-time.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I wished to address this point because it's a very common objection to God's knowledge and Free-will. It's predominantly an Atheistic argument but some theists also find it confusing.

The problem with this is we see time as linear. We don't really know what's gonna happen tomorrow. We don't know what choices we will make tomorrow. But God sitting here with us today knows what choices we are gonna do tomorrow. Thus, are we truly making choices when God knows already?

The first point is that, even with this simplistic view, even if God is sitting with us today, and God has knowledge of tomorrow, knowledge is not causation, thus we do have free-will. The choices are not already made for us. We are gonna make the choices. This response is typically a theological response which is made in a philosophical manner. This is also Christian/Islamic argument. In Islamic traditions they called it Cadhr.

The second point is, mathematically one could perceive of a 4D being while we are 3D (dimensional). This is just to conceptualize God's view of our time. A big problem with the argument above is the anthropomorphism. God is not really sitting with us as a man today. God is a transcended being and he transcends time.

A 4D being who is not bound by time perceives time as just another dimension, similar to how we perceive spatial dimensions. Unlike us, who experience time linearly (past, present, future), this being can see all moments in time simultaneously. Imagine how a 3D being can see an entire 2D plane at once; similarly, a 4D being sees our entire timeline at once. They are not moving through time but can observe and interact with any point in time as easily as we move through space.

The rest is just a read that explains this 3D/4D beings. Not necessary to read but just left there for anyone who wants to.

Mathematical Concept​

1. Dimensions: In mathematics, dimensions refer to the number of coordinates needed to specify a point in a space. For example:
   • 3D Space: A point in 3D space is defined by three coordinates (x, y, z).
   • 4D Space: A point in 4D space is defined by four coordinates (x, y, z, w).
2. Time in Physics: In physics, particularly in the theory of relativity, time is often treated as the fourth dimension, leading to the concept of spacetime, where events are described by four coordinates (x, y, z, t).

4D Being and Time​

• 4D Space with Spatial Dimensions: If we consider a fourth spatial dimension (w) rather than time (t), a 4D being would perceive space as having four dimensions: (x, y, z, w).
• Perception of Time: For a 4D being, time (t) might be perceived as a static dimension, like a spatial dimension. This means they can see the entire timeline (past, present, future) simultaneously.

Visualization and Interaction​

• 2D Analogy: Imagine a 2D being on a flat plane (x, y). We, as 3D beings, can see their entire plane at once. Similarly, a 4D being can see our entire 3D space (x, y, z) and our timeline (t) at once.
• Mathematical Representation: An event in our 3D space over time is represented as (x, y, z, t). A 4D being might represent an event with an additional spatial coordinate: (x, y, z, w).

The concept of a 4D being not bound by time can be understood mathematically by considering time as an additional dimension that this being perceives all at once, much like we perceive spatial dimensions.

So that's the concept of God's transcendence. He knows that's gonna happen because from his perspective, he sees time as a line below him which he could access. He can see and interact with the future as he pleases just like the mathematical concept of a 4D being. So what's gonna happen in our perspective has already happened in a 4D beings perspective. So we have already done it. That's why he knows. And that's why we still have free-will.

Cheers.

Why are you treating choice as a zero-sum propisition?

Whatever we choose and cause - whether by free will or not - is chosen and caused by us.

OTOH, if you're talking about a creator-god responsible for the entire universe, then this god would have also caused absolutely everything. If this god had perfect foreknowledge, he would have caused it all knowingly

All of this can be true at the same time (if the god in question is possible, of course).

 

[firedragon]

From Brittanica

Determinism entails that, in a situation in which a person makes a certain decision or performs a certain action, it is impossible that he or she could have made any other decision or performed any other action. In other words, it is never true that people could have decided or acted otherwise than they actually did.

Since future is known by God. At no future time is any action other than that which God knows will happen, can occur. Hence it is never true that any alternative action could have taken place. Hence determinism and no free will.

Yep. Brittanica doesn't say anything about God knowing the future eliminates free-will. You have refuted yourself.

I think you should read the OP and understand the argument better. Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

All based on " knowledge" of the nonexistent
unknowable.

"nonexistent"? See, although you have no evidence to prove that God is "nonexistent", this is a red herring and just a hand wave. Irrelevant.

An argument addressed in the OP is from the paradigm of what it's explaining. Not this red herring of yours.

 

[Koldo]

I try to keep an open mind, about as many things as possible

Ok then. Where does free will enter the picture on this scenario?

 

[Koldo]

Yep. Brittanica doesn't say anything about God knowing the future eliminates free-will. You have refuted yourself.

I think you should read the OP and understand the argument better. Cheers.

You should read your own advices.

What he is saying is that God only knows the future if determinism is true. And if determinism is true, free will doesn't exist.

He is not saying that God knowing the future eliminates free will. He is saying that God can only know the future if free will doesn't exist.

 

[Audie]

"nonexistent"? See, although you have no evidence to prove that God is "nonexistent", this is a red herring and just a hand wave. Irrelevant.

An argument addressed in the OP is from the paradigm of what it's explaining. Not this red herring of yours.

Not at all.
It's no different w "god" than if I'd said
Batboy is nonexistemt.

Yet your response is different.

Pointing to the basic flaw for your construct
is no " red herring".
Maybe get your terminology correct anc learn to figure be what an argument even is before going on to such an
ambitious project.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Ok then. Where does free will enter the picture on this scenario?

As a conscious agent navigating through the maze of existence, you are free to choose which of several predetermined directions you take at any one point. All possible outcomes occur in some world or universe, but you have at least a degree of choice which one occurs in your experience (although there may be many “yous” in many other worlds).

This is not “woo” nor is it sci-fi, it’s physics.

The Many-Worlds Theory, Explained

 

[RestlessSoul]

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