God, Free-will, and the knowledge of God - Is his knowledge causation?

[Link]

Cannot remove God from the equation because the topic is about God himself and freewill.

And the first premise is not free will is possible. Read the OP. Not a comment I made in reply to antlers person who said those two statements were contradicting. I was not making a syllogism there. Hey Link. What's wrong with your brother-man? When you are reading a comment, read what that was in response to.

Salam.

Salam

Is it really a topic about God? It's more topic about the nature of time and free-will. I don't see it as a topic about God personally but okay, say it's about God and free-will.

I read the OP. You want to show God's knowledge is not causation, but 4d observation. I'm saying, assume that is true, the problem still is that the future exists. If future, past, and present are all existing simultaneously, whether God exists outside of time or not, or doesn't even exist, makes free-will impossible. This is because at each moment, the only choice that can be made is the one in the future that exists simultaneously.

 

[firedragon]

Is it really a topic about God?

Absolutely. If you read the OP that is.

Forget all of the rest. You were replying to a cut and paste of two statements of mine where one guy said were contradicting. It was not a syllogism. Do you accept that fact? Unintentionally, you were making a straw-man.

 

[Link]

And the first premise is not free will is possible.

I'm not talking about the OP here. But

1. .knowledge is not causation, thus we do have free-will (this assuming we have free-will with future existing, the conclusion is in this premise and the next one). The choices are not already made for us.
2. We do have free will (conclusion in premise) because we will choose (same premise, circular within the premise). FOR GOD, in his perspective, all beings have already chosen (again, assuming free-will is possible with future existing).


In the op, you try to prove knowledge of God is not causation but observation of a 4d being. I'm saying, say it's not causation (hard to prove because he creates it right?) the problem is the future existing still makes free-will impossible.

 

[Link]

Absolutely. If you read the OP that is.

Forget all of the rest. You were replying to a cut and paste of two statements of mine where one guy said were contradicting. It was not a syllogism. Do you accept that fact? Unintentionally, you were making a straw-man.

Brother I was replying to the fact, you are just assuming the conclusion in your premises. People do it often. Every fallacy in logic occurs by almost all humans at some point in their life.

 

[muhammad_isa]

This still means there is no free-will, because we can only choose the one that is in the future.

No .. you seem to have ignored my post explaining it..
I said: "You feel that you would be compelled, as you perceive a known future means that it was known BEFORE the decision was made."

Right? That's what you are thinking?
Well, it's incorrect. You are mixing together two different scenarios .. it's like adding together apples and oranges.

It is NOT the case that G-d predetermined what we will do, and hence have no free-will, it is a case of G-d
being aware of what happens .. think of it as if we are living our lives in slow-motion, and while we
perceive a moving now from past to future, G-d perceives that what we call the future has already happened .. i.e. is not in the slow-motion scenario

 

[Link]

Absolutely. If you read the OP that is.

If creation was as you said, then yes God being outside of it, we can say future would be known. But is the creation of God like you described? Does the future exist simultaneously with the present and the past?

You are concluding God knows the future based on the model you are setting for his creation. I'm saying we are discussing the nature of his creation and time, more less about God.

You can model God outside of time without future existing.

I see it more that you are assuming the model of time and creation in a simple way. What I believe is that there many doors leading to many doors in the unseen, different scenarios, and some written and then unwritten and erased and changed.

God has keys to unseen in ways we don't understand. But does this mean future is fixed? I don't believe so. Jinn of evil type also try to make calculations in the future but they are far removed from it. And God and his Angels are aware of plans of Shayateen but not vice versa.

Somethings get set and cannot be changed. Somethings are set of scenarios, they are if set future determinations. Some of these are in Quran even.

 

[Link]

No .. you seem to have ignored my post explaining it..
I said: "You feel that you would be compelled, as you perceive a known future means that it was known BEFORE the decision was made."

Right? That's what you are thinking?
Well, it's incorrect. You are mixing together two different scenarios .. it's like adding together apples and oranges.

It is NOT the case that G-d predetermined what we will do, and hence have no free-will, it is a case of G-d
being aware of what happens .. think of it as if we are living our lives in slow-motion, and while we
perceive a moving now from past to future, G-d perceives that what we call the future has already happened .. i.e. is not in the slow-motion scenario

It doesn't have to it being known. I'm throwing the known aside. If the future moments exist simultaneously with the present and past, then there is no alternative courses to take at the moment of decisions. The future existing will happen no matter what.

 

[firedragon]

Brother I was replying to the fact, you are just assuming the conclusion in your premises. People do it often. Every fallacy in logic occurs by almost all humans at some point in their life.

Wrong. You were replying to as I said "not a syllogism but a cut and paste of two statements in reply to another person who said those two statements were contradicting". I said that for the third time, but my brother, since you seem to ignore what's being said, I will not respond to you again.

I wish you all the very best.

 

[Link]

Wrong. You were replying to as I said "not a syllogism but a cut and paste of two statements in reply to another person who said those two statements were contradicting". I said that for the third time, but my brother, since you seem to ignore what's being said, I will not respond to you again.

I wish you all the very best.

He was saying you contradicted yourself. You are assuming the contradiction is gone within the two statements. It's assumed (the conclusion) in your premises.

I guess I did mix it up, my bad, but it's still there, the assumption and you are not proving there is no contradiction.

 

[Link]

We don't see future, but this means we assume free-will (present is all we see) exists.
God sees future and all decisions are known.

Our perspective being limited, doesn't imply free-will decisions are made. If we saw the future would we be able to choose otherwise? Think about it.

But us not seeing future, just means, we feel like we are choosing in this case. It's an illusion of will. If we saw the future or did not, we can only choose the one in the future since the future exists.

If we saw the future, the difference is we would know we can't choose otherwise.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If the future moments exist simultaneously with the present and past, then there is no alternative courses to take at the moment of decisions. The future existing will happen no matter what.

So what? The reason why it is logically necessary for us to choose the "existing future", is not
because we are compelled to choose it ..
No! .. it is because we have already defined it as being correct.

 

[Link]

So what? The reason why it is logically necessary for us to choose the "existing future", is not
because we are compelled to choose it ..

This is circular reasoning.

 

[Ajax]

If you actually read instead of trying your best to misrepresent, those two statements do not contradict eachother. Read once more. Let me cut and paste from your post the two statements.

1. .knowledge is not causation, thus we do have free-will. The choices are not already made for us.
2. We do have free will because we will choose. FOR GOD, in his perspective, all beings have already chosen.

Choices are not already made for us. We make choices. For God, in his perspective, we have already chosen. Not him. He gave us free-will. He is just beyond time and space. Transcended. So he sees "our future" and our past from above simultaneously.

Read the OP.

pretty simple to understand. Mate. Ciao.

We could not have already chosen, because we are talking about our future, and therefore we are in no way able to know what and if we will need to choose something specific. But according to your idea, if God sees our future, God knows exactly what we are going to choose in our future and he can not be wrong. It is not a matter of knowledge being causation. It is a matter of actually seeing our future choices materialize, as you said.
Simple, yes?

 

[firedragon]

We could not have already chosen, because we are talking about our future

Read the OP.

 

[muhammad_isa]

This is circular reasoning.

Of course it isn't.
..but then you cannot understand why, because you take human perception of time as absolute..
..when it is not .. so something known BEFORE we act really has no effect on the cause of our decisions,
but you are oblivious .. as are many others .. they can't think in any other way .. tick-tock

 

[Link]

Of course it isn't.
..but then you cannot understand why, because you take human perception of time as absolute..
..when it is not .. so something known BEFORE we act really has no effect on the cause of our decisions,
but you are oblivious .. as are many others .. they can't think in any other way .. tick-tock

You are misconstruing my reasons. I'm saying there must be at the time of decision more than one possible outcome. If the future exists, only the future one is possible.

What makes free-will impossible is not whether we know future or not, or whether God exists and knows it too, it's that if the future exists, there is no alternative course to take than that one when you make the decision.

 

[muhammad_isa]

This is circular reasoning.

..and what is "an illusion of free-will"? What sense does that make?
What you really mean is that we would be automatons, following an already established path.

..so what would be different, if we were not automatons? How would the future be different?
Would it no longer be a series of events? What exactly?

 

[Link]

..and what is "an illusion of free-will"? What sense does that make?
What you really mean is that we would be automatons, following an already established path.

..so what would be different, if we were not automatons? How would the future be different?
Would it no longer be a series of events? What exactly?

It would not exist. Only the present exists. It's a huge difference, because, the future than has many possibilities and doors leading to other paths, and God plans takes those possibilities and makes plans and back up plans on top of back up plans.

We don't know which path will come about and joining God's plan means you get to know a little bit of what's going on, what God is planning, and you play your role. This is the wisdom of the night of Qadr in which part of the over plan is revealed for the year. But even that plan, some of it is bound to happen, while a lot of is if scenarios.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You are misconstruing my reasons. I'm saying there must be at the time of decision more than one possible outcome. If the future exists, only the future one is possible.

What does "future exist" mean?
Of course it "exists", otherwise we couldn't discuss it.

What makes free-will impossible is not whether we know future or not, or whether God exists and knows it too, it's that if the future exists, there is no alternative course to take than that one when you make the decision.

Nope! You say it is circular reasoning .. but that is false.
The only reason we won't choose something else, is because we didn't WANT to!!!
..and not because we were compelled to, as you are implying.

 

[Link]

What does "future exist" mean?
Of course it "exists", otherwise we couldn't discuss it.


Nope! You say it is circular reasoning .. but that is false.
The only reason we won't choose something else, is because we didn't WANT to!!!
..an not because we were compelled to, as you are implying.

Desire is different then free-will. Our desire would not be free in this case and morality would be an illusion too.