God, Free-will, and the knowledge of God - Is his knowledge causation?

[Aupmanyav]

So, it's quite likely that God may not even care what we do, what societies we set up, or what we do each other or even to the planet itself. As long as the planets keep turning and the mechanisms of the universe keep running, what possible reason would God have for getting involved in the puny affairs of the inhabitants on this little ball of mud floating through space?

You are talking of nature, the way things seem to exist; and nature may not even worry about the universe, blotting it out one of these days, just as mysteriously as it arose.

 

[firedragon]

Well, now that you saw your modal logic/fallacy collapse, you are back on your old guesswork of time...

Mate. You made an obvious modal fallacy.

 

[Copernicus]

There is no reason to believe that these descriptions were meant as similes or metaphors..

I disagree. It is easy to laugh at a scenario where we both have free-will, but the future is determined for us..
..it is logically impossible. Some people would rather have us believe that G-d does not exist, and
we should take such beliefs literally. Sorry, no can do.

I am certainly one of those people who believes that God does not exist, and I still see no reason to believe that people who called God all-knowing and all-powerful were using language intended to be taken non-literally. They did historically, and many still do even today. If you don't want to believe that and cannot give a reason to support your non-literal preference, then we are at an impasse.

I think that my assumptions have been entirely consistent with the way that people describe God's nature and God's behavior. Neither of us is a physicist, so we should be even more careful than real physicists in speculating about the nature of time. Bear in mind that holy scripture was not really created by physicists. It is beyond ludicrous to think that ancient holy men had some kind of sophisticated understanding of the theory of relativity, although there are plenty of scientists in modern times who practice a religious faith of one sort or another. Religion is not a serious factor in what they do..

Well, Thomas Aquinas (1224–1274) taught that G-d was (outside of time), without understanding the maths/physics of it, I feel sure.

So? If you want to address his specific support for that claim, we could address that. I'm also pretty sure he didn't understand modern science or cosmology. Modern scientists don't rely on anything Thomas Aquinas said to support their theories and conjectures, AFAIK.

After all, it's your creation story and your God, not mine. If you can't make sense of it, then how can I?

I can make sense of it .. and I don't see that G-d is limited in the ways that you suggest. eg. suffers from no volition

Well, I have laid it out as clearly as I could, and you haven't actually pointed to any flaws in my argument. You feel that you can make sense of it, but you have yet to communicate that sense to those of us who can't make sense of it.

They can .. but we all have varying creeds.

Which is another problem for you, since there is no way to tell whether your particular creed is better than any of the others.

No .. your argument is not identical to the 'proverbial stone too heavy to lift'.
You confuse logical impossibility with physical impossibility.

Why make any distinction at all? If something is impossible, for whatever reason, it is still impossible.

God is powerless to make a stone to heavy to lift despite being able to do anything logically possible. It is logically possible that an omnipotent God could change his mind about something or do something that he didn't realize he was going to do, except that he wouldn't be omniscient if he could do that. So changing his mind is logically impossible, given his perfect foreknowledge.

God doesn't need to be explained. That's your explanation, and you're sticking to it..

If that was my 'explanation', I would not have written so many words in this thread alone. No .. "outside of time".

..and don't tell me how G-d who is 'outside of time' has no volition, because you have no knowledge of that .. you've already said so.

God exists within his own timeline, where he makes decisions, plans, executes, observes, etc. Every action is conceptually an event. There is no other way to interpret them, and that is clearly how they were intended to be understood by audiences. All you can really say is that God's timeline is external to ours, not that God is 'outside of time' in every sense. The problem is that you can't explain the language used to describe God, because it leads to contradictions and confusion. So you just wave your hand and say that it doesn't matter. And it doesn't to you, but it does to those you are trying to explain your religious beliefs to.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I am certainly one of those people who believes that God does not exist, and I still see no reason to believe that people who called God all-knowing and all-powerful were using language intended to be taken non-literally. They did historically, and many still do even today..

Yes .. I believe that G-d is "All Knowing" and "All Powerful".
..but presumably, not in the way that you do .. that is, that these attributes contradict each other
in some way.

Why make any distinction at all? If something is impossible, for whatever reason, it is still impossible.

No .. something that is physically impossible, such as walking on water, is not the same as
a sentence that makes no logical sense.

God is powerless to make a stone to heavy to lift..

It's the sentence that is at fault .. we cannot communicate effectively when talking gibberish.

It is logically possible that an omnipotent God could change his mind about something or do something that he didn't realize he was going to do, except that he wouldn't be omniscient if he could do that..

Says you .. you are categorically telling us all about something that you have no knowledge of..
i.e. something not subject to space-time

..changing his mind is logically impossible, given his perfect foreknowledge.

The anthropomorphizing of G-d, describing a scenario mentioning past-tense, future-tense etc.
is invalid. It's no more than guesswork, and a bad one at that.

"His perfect foreknowledge" does not equal a future pre-determined by Him.
If we have free-will, which you have already agreed to, then I see no reason why an independent
Creator of space-time cannot influence events also ..
eg. He can put 'ideas' in our mind

God exists within his own timeline, where he makes decisions, plans, executes, observes, etc.

Who knows?
You use 'timeline' as meaning something like our own space-time .. but I do not envisage
G-d as a being with form .. more like an infinite number of non-physical souls (essence),
which has no need for measured time, or measured space .. as they are part of the creation.

Every action is conceptually an event. There is no other way to interpret them, and that is clearly how they were intended to be understood by audiences. All you can really say is that God's timeline is external to ours, not that God is 'outside of time' in every sense..

Outside of our measured-time, yes.

The problem is that you can't explain the language used to describe God, because it leads to contradictions and confusion. So you just wave your hand and say that it doesn't matter..

It's not easy to describe something that is not of this universe, naturally .. but not impossible.
Words are not my forte .. I'm better with boolean logic and math.

 

[Trailblazer]

OK, but I've spent a lot of time going over this with Muhammad_isa, so I don't want to repeat all of that again. Could you perhaps revisit some of those posts and ask specific questions about my explanation of why omniscience and omnipotence are logically incompatible with each other?

I understand. I have also spent a lot of time on this topic.
I don't have time to revisit it again now, maybe later.

On another note, an omnipotent God who was not also omniscient would be a very dangerous God indeed! Think about why.

 

[Link]

On another note, an omnipotent God who was not also omniscient would be a very dangerous God indeed! Think about why.

Why would that be the case?

 

[Ajax]

That needs to be understood in context. I do NOT believe in a literal predetermination.
Some Christians and Muslims do .. but we are not discussing this model.

We are specifically discussing whether knowledge of the future is its cause.

Patently false. You won't stick to the topic .. you make an argument, and when you are shown
it relies on a modal fallacy, you deny it .. adding more conditions, such as
'knowing before the creation'.

Whether you believe or not it's irrelevant. The world doesn't give a damn about your personal beliefs.
In this particular discussion, although I'm not theist, I take as standard value what the Christian theology teaches. I'm not concerned with Islam or any other religion.

You said above that you believe God is all knowing and all powerful. Apart from explaining to you the contradiction of this particular combined belief, the fact that you agree in God's omniscience (All Knowing) clearly implies that God's knowledge can not be contingent (possibly true and possible false), therefore modal logic or fallacy can not apply to his attributes. He does know and see the future. This does not necessitate our choices, but if we choose something different, it destroys God's omniscience. The best explanation you have given is that God will see what we will choose out of myriads choices we have, which is pathetic, since theology teaches that God's knowledge exists before the world begun.
Additionally believing in an all knowing God (including the future) necessitates a preset future, as far as God is concerned, irrespectively if he is out of time or in time.

I told you will tell you why free will is an illusion, but I'm really bored to death with the constant recycling of your arguments. Au revoir in another thread perhaps.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why would that be the case?

Logically speaking, a God who had all power but did not know everything could make a big mistake.

 

[Link]

Logically speaking, a God who had all power but did not know everything could make a big mistake.

From point of view of future hindsight, sure, but he would always have back up plans for each scenario.

 

[Trailblazer]

God's omniscience (All Knowing) clearly implies that God's knowledge can not be contingent (possibly true and possible false), therefore modal logic or fallacy can not apply to his attributes. He does know and see the future. This does not necessitate our choices, but if we choose something different, it destroys God's omniscience.

We will not choose anything different from what God knows we will choose, but before we chose what God knew we would choose, we could have chosen something different and that something different will be what God knew we would choose. Since we could have chosen something different that means we have free will to choose.

Whatever we end up choosing will be identical with what God knew we would choose but that doesn't restrict our choices in any way.

 

[Ajax]

but before we chose what God knew we would choose, we could have chosen something different and that something different will be what God knew we would choose. Since we could have chosen something different that means we have free will to choose.

I wonder if it is only me that find this quote extremely nonsensical.
I asked you before but you didn't reply. Can you explain please with example what you mean and how can this be possible?
That is, how can we can choose something different from what God knew we will choose and that something different will be what God knew that we would choose?

 

[muhammad_isa]

The world doesn't give a damn about your personal beliefs.
In this particular discussion, although I'm not theist, I take as standard value what the Christian theology teaches..

Why would you, when you are obviously discussing the OP with a Muslim?
Nevertheless, I do have some understanding of Christianity, as my mother was a Christian,
and my father an agnostic.

Views of Christians on predetermination vary widely, in any case.
Predestination - Wikipedia

..the fact that you agree in God's omniscience (All Knowing) clearly implies that God's knowledge can not be contingent (possibly true and possible false), therefore modal logic or fallacy can not apply to his attributes.

No it doesn't ! It's a question of HOW G-d knows.
You are assuming that G-d knows "before we make the choice" .. but this is false .. G-d is
outside of space-time, and what we perceive as "not yet happened" is only a perception, that G-d does not share.
It is logically impossible for us to have free-will, while G-d makes the choice for us!!!
We make the choice, and G-d knows what that choice is.

..if we choose something different, it destroys God's omniscience..

..so what?
If we had wanted to choose something different, we would have done so.

..believing in an all knowing God (including the future) necessitates a preset future..

Mmm .. and round and round we go.
People believe all kinds of things about fate & predetermination .. some totally illogical.

..but the biggest obstacle to understanding the topic, is human perception.
The future and the past are both fixed blocks of events .. the only difference between them is that
the future block is unknown.
An agent outside of space-time has a different perspective, but it changes nothing .. the future is
STILL unknown to us.
..or perhaps G-d is speaking to you, telling you who will win the grand-national next year?

 

[Ajax]

Why would you, when you are obviously discussing the OP with a Muslim?
Nevertheless, I do have some understanding of Christianity, as my mother was a Christian,
and my father an agnostic.

I have no problem discussing with anyone as long as they use logic. Unfortunately for many theists and especially Muslims logic is denied in their countries, otherwise it is punishable. You are lucky you live in England.

No it doesn't ! It's a question of HOW G-d knows.
You are assuming that G-d knows "before we make the choice" .. but this is false .. G-d is
outside of space-time, and what we perceive as "not yet happened" is only a perception, that G-d does not share.
It is logically impossible for us to have free-will, while G-d makes the choice for us!!!
We make the choice, and G-d knows what that choice is.

Mmm .. and round and round we go.
People believe all kinds of things about fate & predetermination .. some totally illogical.

..but the biggest obstacle to understanding the topic, is human perception.
The future and the past are both fixed blocks of events .. the only difference between them is that
the future block is unknown.
An agent outside of space-time has a different perspective, but it changes nothing .. the future is
STILL unknown to us.

That's not omniscience, that's BS.. I can have the same omniscience, if I see you choosing the blue shirt, instead of the red..

Once again, the link you gave us clearly states:

"Historically, some theologians have tried to solve the puzzle by invoking unique properties of God. For example, some have argued that God is ‘outside of time’ (or that ‘His knowledge is timeless’) and thus His knowledge is not foreknowledge at all, that is, God’s knowledge does not occur before (or during, or after, for that matter) any events in the world. The trouble with such solutions is (a) they leave non-theistic versions of the puzzle untouched (for example, my wife’s knowing that I will drink tea tomorrow), and (b) we can construct a revised version of the puzzle explicitly invoking God’s timelessness,

for example:

God is omniscient and His knowledge is timeless—that is, God knows timelessly all that has happened, is happening, and will happen. Therefore, if He knows timelessly that a person will perform such-and-such an action, then it is impossible for that person not to perform that action."

Have a good time.

 

[Ajax]

It is logically impossible for us to have free-will, while G-d makes the choice for us!!!
We make the choice, and G-d knows what that choice is.

That's exactly what we have been saying to you. Either God is not omniscient, or we don't have free will.

If we make a choice and then God knows what choice we made, I could easily do the same...
You are unbelievable!!

 

[muhammad_isa]

That's not omniscience, that's BS.. I can have the same omniscience, if I see you choosing the blue shirt, instead of the red..

..but you can't .. you are not omniscient .. you are trapped in this space-time continuum with
the rest of us .. we are unaware of our future, as it is hidden from us.

 

[Ajax]

..but you can't .. you are not omniscient .. you are trapped in this space-time continuum with
the rest of us .. we are unaware of our future, as it is hidden from us.

Of course I can. I could follow, hire a private investigator or place a camera on someone and will know all his choices immediately.
Hooray! I'm omniscient for this particular person!!

Honestly, the discussion has turned into a comedy now...

 

[muhammad_isa]

Of course I can. I could follow, hire a private investigator or place a camera on someone and will know all his choices immediately.
Hooray! I'm omniscient for this particular person!!

Honestly, the discussion has turned into a comedy now...

If you want it to be a comedy, then so be it..
..but you are only fooling yourself.

Have you attended any further education?
If so, in what subjects?

 

[Link]

I wonder if it is only me that find this quote extremely nonsensical.
I asked you before but you didn't reply. Can you explain please with example what you mean and how can this be possible?
That is, how can we can choose something different from what God knew we will choose and that something different will be what God knew that we would choose?

You are correct. Quran and hadiths of Imams (a) show God does not know the future and is testing believers and humans to know who will be true and who will lie to themselves and God and others.

He tests so he comes to know the patient.

Not only that, but what he writes (plans) some of it comes to be and some of it is erased and does not.

He only emphasizes he knows what is behind and in the front (future) for his chosen ones. This is because he knows they will remain on the straight path and would not have chosen them if he did not know that about them.

Other non-chosen souls are volatile and God is testing us to come to know what we will decide - be true or be false and liars.

There is no proof God does not innovate new observational knowledge in real time. He does. God's essence does not change, and his states don't change his essence. Every day he is in state per Quran. While our actions and moods and states effect our essence, this is not true of God. God's essence stays the same regardless of the states he is in.

 

[Ajax]

Have you attended any further education?
If so, in what subjects?

Law and Shipping law in City University London and half course in Christian Bible studies (out of curiosity) which I stopped because I became an agnostic.

 

[Ajax]

If you want it to be a comedy, then so be it..
..but you are only fooling yourself.

You turned it into a comedy my friend with your latest claim tonight.
I know very well if I'm fooling myself. You should be worried believing in splitting moon and flying to heavens with buraq...