God, Free-will, and the knowledge of God - Is his knowledge causation?

[firedragon]

I wished to address this point because it's a very common objection to God's knowledge and Free-will. It's predominantly an Atheistic argument but some theists also find it confusing.

The problem with this is we see time as linear. We don't really know what's gonna happen tomorrow. We don't know what choices we will make tomorrow. But God sitting here with us today knows what choices we are gonna do tomorrow. Thus, are we truly making choices when God knows already?

The first point is that, even with this simplistic view, even if God is sitting with us today, and God has knowledge of tomorrow, knowledge is not causation, thus we do have free-will. The choices are not already made for us. We are gonna make the choices. This response is typically a theological response which is made in a philosophical manner. This is also Christian/Islamic argument. In Islamic traditions they called it Cadhr.

The second point is, mathematically one could perceive of a 4D being while we are 3D (dimensional). This is just to conceptualize God's view of our time. A big problem with the argument above is the anthropomorphism. God is not really sitting with us as a man today. God is a transcended being and he transcends time.

A 4D being who is not bound by time perceives time as just another dimension, similar to how we perceive spatial dimensions. Unlike us, who experience time linearly (past, present, future), this being can see all moments in time simultaneously. Imagine how a 3D being can see an entire 2D plane at once; similarly, a 4D being sees our entire timeline at once. They are not moving through time but can observe and interact with any point in time as easily as we move through space.

The rest is just a read that explains this 3D/4D beings. Not necessary to read but just left there for anyone who wants to.

Mathematical Concept​

1. Dimensions: In mathematics, dimensions refer to the number of coordinates needed to specify a point in a space. For example:
   • 3D Space: A point in 3D space is defined by three coordinates (x, y, z).
   • 4D Space: A point in 4D space is defined by four coordinates (x, y, z, w).
2. Time in Physics: In physics, particularly in the theory of relativity, time is often treated as the fourth dimension, leading to the concept of spacetime, where events are described by four coordinates (x, y, z, t).

4D Being and Time​

• 4D Space with Spatial Dimensions: If we consider a fourth spatial dimension (w) rather than time (t), a 4D being would perceive space as having four dimensions: (x, y, z, w).
• Perception of Time: For a 4D being, time (t) might be perceived as a static dimension, like a spatial dimension. This means they can see the entire timeline (past, present, future) simultaneously.

Visualization and Interaction​

• 2D Analogy: Imagine a 2D being on a flat plane (x, y). We, as 3D beings, can see their entire plane at once. Similarly, a 4D being can see our entire 3D space (x, y, z) and our timeline (t) at once.
• Mathematical Representation: An event in our 3D space over time is represented as (x, y, z, t). A 4D being might represent an event with an additional spatial coordinate: (x, y, z, w).

The concept of a 4D being not bound by time can be understood mathematically by considering time as an additional dimension that this being perceives all at once, much like we perceive spatial dimensions.

So that's the concept of God's transcendence. He knows that's gonna happen because from his perspective, he sees time as a line below him which he could access. He can see and interact with the future as he pleases just like the mathematical concept of a 4D being. So what's gonna happen in our perspective has already happened in a 4D beings perspective. So we have already done it. That's why he knows. And that's why we still have free-will.

Cheers.

 

[Jimmy]

There is no 4d imo

 

[firedragon]

There is no 4d imo

I was giving the concept at hand through maths so that one could empathize with the concept. Not to show "4D is physical reality". Understand the concept. Cheers.

 

[Jimmy]

I was giving the concept at hand through maths so that one could empathize with the concept. Not to show "4D is physical reality". Understand the concept. Cheers.

Oh in that case I empathize

 

[firedragon]

Oh in that case I empathize

Cheers.

 

[sayak83]

I wished to address this point because it's a very common objection to God's knowledge and Free-will. It's predominantly an Atheistic argument but some theists also find it confusing.

The problem with this is we see time as linear. We don't really know what's gonna happen tomorrow. We don't know what choices we will make tomorrow. But God sitting here with us today knows what choices we are gonna do tomorrow. Thus, are we truly making choices when God knows already?

The first point is that, even with this simplistic view, even if God is sitting with us today, and God has knowledge of tomorrow, knowledge is not causation, thus we do have free-will. The choices are not already made for us. We are gonna make the choices. This response is typically a theological response which is made in a philosophical manner. This is also Christian/Islamic argument. In Islamic traditions they called it Cadhr.

The second point is, mathematically one could perceive of a 4D being while we are 3D (dimensional). This is just to conceptualize God's view of our time. A big problem with the argument above is the anthropomorphism. God is not really sitting with us as a man today. God is a transcended being and he transcends time.

A 4D being who is not bound by time perceives time as just another dimension, similar to how we perceive spatial dimensions. Unlike us, who experience time linearly (past, present, future), this being can see all moments in time simultaneously. Imagine how a 3D being can see an entire 2D plane at once; similarly, a 4D being sees our entire timeline at once. They are not moving through time but can observe and interact with any point in time as easily as we move through space.

The rest is just a read that explains this 3D/4D beings. Not necessary to read but just left there for anyone who wants to.

Mathematical Concept​

1. Dimensions: In mathematics, dimensions refer to the number of coordinates needed to specify a point in a space. For example:
   • 3D Space: A point in 3D space is defined by three coordinates (x, y, z).
   • 4D Space: A point in 4D space is defined by four coordinates (x, y, z, w).
2. Time in Physics: In physics, particularly in the theory of relativity, time is often treated as the fourth dimension, leading to the concept of spacetime, where events are described by four coordinates (x, y, z, t).

4D Being and Time​

• 4D Space with Spatial Dimensions: If we consider a fourth spatial dimension (w) rather than time (t), a 4D being would perceive space as having four dimensions: (x, y, z, w).
• Perception of Time: For a 4D being, time (t) might be perceived as a static dimension, like a spatial dimension. This means they can see the entire timeline (past, present, future) simultaneously.

Visualization and Interaction​

• 2D Analogy: Imagine a 2D being on a flat plane (x, y). We, as 3D beings, can see their entire plane at once. Similarly, a 4D being can see our entire 3D space (x, y, z) and our timeline (t) at once.
• Mathematical Representation: An event in our 3D space over time is represented as (x, y, z, t). A 4D being might represent an event with an additional spatial coordinate: (x, y, z, w).

The concept of a 4D being not bound by time can be understood mathematically by considering time as an additional dimension that this being perceives all at once, much like we perceive spatial dimensions.

So that's the concept of God's transcendence. He knows that's gonna happen because from his perspective, he sees time as a line below him which he could access. He can see and interact with the future as he pleases just like the mathematical concept of a 4D being. So what's gonna happen in our perspective has already happened in a 4D beings perspective. So we have already done it. That's why he knows. And that's why we still have free-will.

Cheers.

If time is an additional dimension in which future already exists and is an object of knowledge then free will does not exist as future becomes deterministic.

Here we are not discussing if God is causing the future or not, but rather if determinism is true or not. Free will is incompatible with determinism, and if future can be an object of knowledge then the world is deterministic in nature. That is the problem.

 

[Stevicus]

I wished to address this point because it's a very common objection to God's knowledge and Free-will. It's predominantly an Atheistic argument but some theists also find it confusing.

The problem with this is we see time as linear. We don't really know what's gonna happen tomorrow. We don't know what choices we will make tomorrow. But God sitting here with us today knows what choices we are gonna do tomorrow. Thus, are we truly making choices when God knows already?

The first point is that, even with this simplistic view, even if God is sitting with us today, and God has knowledge of tomorrow, knowledge is not causation, thus we do have free-will. The choices are not already made for us. We are gonna make the choices. This response is typically a theological response which is made in a philosophical manner. This is also Christian/Islamic argument. In Islamic traditions they called it Cadhr.

The second point is, mathematically one could perceive of a 4D being while we are 3D (dimensional). This is just to conceptualize God's view of our time. A big problem with the argument above is the anthropomorphism. God is not really sitting with us as a man today. God is a transcended being and he transcends time.

A 4D being who is not bound by time perceives time as just another dimension, similar to how we perceive spatial dimensions. Unlike us, who experience time linearly (past, present, future), this being can see all moments in time simultaneously. Imagine how a 3D being can see an entire 2D plane at once; similarly, a 4D being sees our entire timeline at once. They are not moving through time but can observe and interact with any point in time as easily as we move through space.

The rest is just a read that explains this 3D/4D beings. Not necessary to read but just left there for anyone who wants to.

Mathematical Concept​

1. Dimensions: In mathematics, dimensions refer to the number of coordinates needed to specify a point in a space. For example:
   • 3D Space: A point in 3D space is defined by three coordinates (x, y, z).
   • 4D Space: A point in 4D space is defined by four coordinates (x, y, z, w).
2. Time in Physics: In physics, particularly in the theory of relativity, time is often treated as the fourth dimension, leading to the concept of spacetime, where events are described by four coordinates (x, y, z, t).

4D Being and Time​

• 4D Space with Spatial Dimensions: If we consider a fourth spatial dimension (w) rather than time (t), a 4D being would perceive space as having four dimensions: (x, y, z, w).
• Perception of Time: For a 4D being, time (t) might be perceived as a static dimension, like a spatial dimension. This means they can see the entire timeline (past, present, future) simultaneously.

Visualization and Interaction​

• 2D Analogy: Imagine a 2D being on a flat plane (x, y). We, as 3D beings, can see their entire plane at once. Similarly, a 4D being can see our entire 3D space (x, y, z) and our timeline (t) at once.
• Mathematical Representation: An event in our 3D space over time is represented as (x, y, z, t). A 4D being might represent an event with an additional spatial coordinate: (x, y, z, w).

The concept of a 4D being not bound by time can be understood mathematically by considering time as an additional dimension that this being perceives all at once, much like we perceive spatial dimensions.

So that's the concept of God's transcendence. He knows that's gonna happen because from his perspective, he sees time as a line below him which he could access. He can see and interact with the future as he pleases just like the mathematical concept of a 4D being. So what's gonna happen in our perspective has already happened in a 4D beings perspective. So we have already done it. That's why he knows. And that's why we still have free-will.

Cheers.

I suppose there are a few ways one could look at this.

For one, I would point out that, whatever humans choose to do, their actions and consequences only really affect the Earth, having negligible impact outside of our own immediate vicinity. The Sun, planets, stars, galaxies will on go on unimpeded, and there's nothing humans can do to change that. The forces of nature, the aging of our bodies, our biological needs due to natural constraints - none of this is affected by human will. God (if there is a God) is not affected by anything we do.

So, it's quite likely that God may not even care what we do, what societies we set up, or what we do each other or even to the planet itself. As long as the planets keep turning and the mechanisms of the universe keep running, what possible reason would God have for getting involved in the puny affairs of the inhabitants on this little ball of mud floating through space?

If one views God as indifferent, leaving the mechanisms of nature to run on automatic, harsh and cruel as they may, that would explain a great deal. It would also allow for the existence of free will within that perception, while acknowledging that we are in some kind of prison or domain isolated from the rest of the universe. There could be a billion alternate timelines for Earth, and yet, the rest of the universe would be totally unaffected.

Where it gets complicated is when some religions claim that "God loves us" and "God has a plan for us." People claim that God is infinitely good, all powerful, and all knowing - and takes an active interest in human affairs and everything that we do. That's where the "free will" position starts to unravel, because if God is actively interfering and influencing human affairs, how can we truly be free and independent? Perhaps a better plan would have been to just leave humans alone. God should never have told us that He existed.

But setting that aside (to look at this question another way), let's say that God really does exist and really does love us and have a plan for us. Let's say that God knows the physical status and thought processes of all humans and animals simultaneously, and is also aware of the natural mechanisms at work - wind currents, weather patterns, seismic activity, etc. The same conception would also imply that God knows all of our genetic weaknesses, our history, whatever trauma we might have gone through - which could make one's choices more predictable when encountering whatever stimuli God may want to throw in one's direction. Human actions can impact upon other human choices, so if God is aware of what everyone is thinking and feeling at any given time, then it seems plausible that there would be a high degree of certainty that God would already know what people will choose to do in a given situation. He knows who's troubled and might do something rash. He knows who might be planning a murder or mass shooting.

It might be analogous to the character of the Architect in the Matrix, who saw human choices only as variables in an equation, but he already had a pretty fair idea of what people would choose (after some trial and error). If someone knows what everyone is thinking (including the sub-conscious), where they are, and their present emotional state - and how they interact with each other - along with the external environment, every virus, every bacteria, every bug and bird - then predicting choices and outcomes may not be quite so difficult for someone who has that ability.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

I wished to address this point because it's a very common objection to God's knowledge and Free-will. It's predominantly an Atheistic argument but some theists also find it confusing.

The problem with this is we see time as linear. We don't really know what's gonna happen tomorrow. We don't know what choices we will make tomorrow. But God sitting here with us today knows what choices we are gonna do tomorrow. Thus, are we truly making choices when God knows already?

The first point is that, even with this simplistic view, even if God is sitting with us today, and God has knowledge of tomorrow, knowledge is not causation, thus we do have free-will. The choices are not already made for us. We are gonna make the choices. This response is typically a theological response which is made in a philosophical manner. This is also Christian/Islamic argument. In Islamic traditions they called it Cadhr.

The second point is, mathematically one could perceive of a 4D being while we are 3D (dimensional). This is just to conceptualize God's view of our time. A big problem with the argument above is the anthropomorphism. God is not really sitting with us as a man today. God is a transcended being and he transcends time.

A 4D being who is not bound by time perceives time as just another dimension, similar to how we perceive spatial dimensions. Unlike us, who experience time linearly (past, present, future), this being can see all moments in time simultaneously. Imagine how a 3D being can see an entire 2D plane at once; similarly, a 4D being sees our entire timeline at once. They are not moving through time but can observe and interact with any point in time as easily as we move through space.

The rest is just a read that explains this 3D/4D beings. Not necessary to read but just left there for anyone who wants to.

Mathematical Concept​

1. Dimensions: In mathematics, dimensions refer to the number of coordinates needed to specify a point in a space. For example:
   • 3D Space: A point in 3D space is defined by three coordinates (x, y, z).
   • 4D Space: A point in 4D space is defined by four coordinates (x, y, z, w).
2. Time in Physics: In physics, particularly in the theory of relativity, time is often treated as the fourth dimension, leading to the concept of spacetime, where events are described by four coordinates (x, y, z, t).

4D Being and Time​

• 4D Space with Spatial Dimensions: If we consider a fourth spatial dimension (w) rather than time (t), a 4D being would perceive space as having four dimensions: (x, y, z, w).
• Perception of Time: For a 4D being, time (t) might be perceived as a static dimension, like a spatial dimension. This means they can see the entire timeline (past, present, future) simultaneously.

Visualization and Interaction​

• 2D Analogy: Imagine a 2D being on a flat plane (x, y). We, as 3D beings, can see their entire plane at once. Similarly, a 4D being can see our entire 3D space (x, y, z) and our timeline (t) at once.
• Mathematical Representation: An event in our 3D space over time is represented as (x, y, z, t). A 4D being might represent an event with an additional spatial coordinate: (x, y, z, w).

The concept of a 4D being not bound by time can be understood mathematically by considering time as an additional dimension that this being perceives all at once, much like we perceive spatial dimensions.

So that's the concept of God's transcendence. He knows that's gonna happen because from his perspective, he sees time as a line below him which he could access. He can see and interact with the future as he pleases just like the mathematical concept of a 4D being. So what's gonna happen in our perspective has already happened in a 4D beings perspective. So we have already done it. That's why he knows. And that's why we still have free-will.

Cheers.

Even with a 4D dimension you are applying human concepts to a God and you can’t box Him in like that.

He transcends even dimensions.

It’s probably likely that he views the past, present and future all at the same time.

He also probably has thousands or millions of other projects going on at the same moment as us.

I doubt if it’s even possible for us to understand the breadth of the existence of God.

 

[firedragon]

If time is an additional dimension in which future already exists and is an object of knowledge then free will does not exist as future becomes deterministic.

That's the Atheistic position. Not the theistic position. Because theism is to believe in the metaphysical as well. Thus, you must understand theism from their perspective.

Here we are not discussing if God is causing the future or not, but rather if determinism is true or not.

Well. It's a compatibilistic model if you may.

Free will is incompatible with determinism, and if future can be an object of knowledge then the world is deterministic in nature. That is the problem.

Well. Even atheists argue for compatibilism.

Nevertheless, this topic is about the knowledge of God, not determinism. You have not understood the OP. You are again positing that knowledge means determinism. That's a fallacious argument.

Even with a 4D dimension you are applying human concepts to a God and you can’t box Him in like that.

Not at all. That's an explanation from mathematics for someone who posits that argument. Not to "box" God into that. It's for the Atheist or Theist who has problems with this atheistic argument to understand.

 

[sayak83]

That's the Atheistic position. Not the theistic position. Because theism is to believe in the metaphysical as well. Thus, you must understand theism from their perspective.


Well. It's a compatibilistic model if you may.


Well. Even atheists argue for compatibilism.

Nevertheless, this topic is about the knowledge of God, not determinism. You have not understood the OP. You are again positing that knowledge means determinism. That's a fallacious argument.

Not at all. That's an explanation from mathematics for someone who posits that argument. Not to "box" God into that. It's for the Atheist or Theist who has problems with this atheistic argument to underst

If there is an unique future that will be realised and can be known by some being or the other, then we are living in a deterministic world by definition.
In that world, even God does not have free will. Since he knows what actions he will inevitably do in his future.

 

[sayak83]

That's the Atheistic position. Not the theistic position. Because theism is to believe in the metaphysical as well. Thus, you must understand theism from their perspective.


Well. It's a compatibilistic model if you may.


Well. Even atheists argue for compatibilism.

Nevertheless, this topic is about the knowledge of God, not determinism. You have not understood the OP. You are again positing that knowledge means determinism. That's a fallacious argument.

Not at all. That's an explanation from mathematics for someone who posits that argument. Not to "box" God into that. It's for the Atheist or Theist who has problems with this atheistic argument to understand.

From Brittanica

Determinism entails that, in a situation in which a person makes a certain decision or performs a certain action, it is impossible that he or she could have made any other decision or performed any other action. In other words, it is never true that people could have decided or acted otherwise than they actually did.

Since future is known by God. At no future time is any action other than that which God knows will happen, can occur. Hence it is never true that any alternative action could have taken place. Hence determinism and no free will.

 

[Trailblazer]

The first point is that, even with this simplistic view, even if God is sitting with us today, and God has knowledge of tomorrow, knowledge is not causation, thus we do have free-will. The choices are not already made for us. We are gonna make the choices.

That is exactly correct. The main point is that God's foreknowledge is not the cause of anything that happens, including our choices.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

God knows what we are going to choose but that does not limit our choices in any way. Whatever we end up choosing will be what God knew we would choose because God is all-knowing.

 

[Heyo]

A 4D being who is not bound by time perceives time as just another dimension, similar to how we perceive spatial dimensions. Unlike us, who experience time linearly (past, present, future), this being can see all moments in time simultaneously.

This view is called B-time - sometime also "book time" or "block time", because time is just another dimension. It is only by our perception that we have to "read" the book one page after the other.
Now imagine reading a book, one page after the other. The protagonist has to make an important decision and contemplates it on page 22. On page 23 he makes the fatal decision and the tragedy enfolds.
Do you expect the protagonist to make a different decision when you re-read the book? Is he even capable to make a different decision? The book is already printed. Has the protagonist free will?
If we are living in a B-time universe, do we have free will?

 

[Heyo]

That is exactly correct. The main point is that God's foreknowledge is not the cause of anything that happens, including our choices.

Imagine writing a book. You have a protagonist who has to struggle with an important decision. You describe his decision-making process and how all alternatives are equally good or bad. Then you write about the decision he makes, and the story goes on.

The (first-time) reader feels with the protagonist and imagines him exercising his free will. You (or the second time reader) know the outcome of the struggle. Does your knowledge "cause" the protagonist to decide? Did he ever have a decision?

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

That's the Atheistic position. Not the theistic position. Because theism is to believe in the metaphysical as well. Thus, you must understand theism from their perspective.

That’s interesting.

I’ve often seen atheism defined to be what I call “Seinfeld atheism”, that is, it is quite literally about nothing.

In 21st century newspeak, folks even include “Seinfeld agnosticism” as a subclass of Seinfeld atheism.

On the other hand, “Seinfeld theism” is also about nothing, quite metaphorically.

What you are describing is different from either Seinfeld atheism and Seinfeld theism.

Remember, unless one is assuming or has proven uniqueness, it doesn’t make any sense to talk about “the” atheistic position, or “the” theistic position”.

All you have is “an” atheistic position and “a” theistic position.

 

[RestlessSoul]

If time is an additional dimension in which future already exists and is an object of knowledge then free will does not exist as future becomes deterministic.

Here we are not discussing if God is causing the future or not, but rather if determinism is true or not. Free will is incompatible with determinism, and if future can be an object of knowledge then the world is deterministic in nature. That is the problem.

But if all possible futures and all possible histories exist as probabilities emanating from all possible time co-ordinates, all futures may already exist, remaining hidden from most perspectives.

In this model, determinism and free will can easily co-exist, as can the concept of an omniscient consciousness, that is uncontrained by temporal dimensions.

 

[RestlessSoul]

That’s interesting.

I’ve often seen atheism defined to be what I call “Seinfeld atheism”, that is, it is quite literally about nothing.

In 21st century newspeak, folks even include “Seinfeld agnosticism” as a subclass of Seinfeld atheism.

On the other hand, “Seinfeld theism” is also about nothing, quite metaphorically.

What you are describing is different from either Seinfeld atheism and Seinfeld theism.

Remember, unless one is assuming or has proven uniqueness, it doesn’t make any sense to talk about “the” atheistic position, it “the” theistic position”.

All you have is “an” atheistic position and “a” theistic position.

And a thinking person ought to be capable of viewing the world from multiple positions simultaneously. Any attempt at objectivity demands this of us, it seems to me.

 

[Koldo]

But if all possible futures and all possible histories exist as probabilities emanating from all possible time co-ordinates, all futures may already exist,

Existing as a probability is completly distinct from actually existing.

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

But if all possible futures and all possible histories exist as probabilities emanating from all possible time co-ordinates, all futures may already exist, remaining hidden from most perspectives.

In this model, determinism and free will can easily co-exist, as can the concept of an omniscient consciousness, that is uncontrained by temporal dimensions.

And then there’s the one electron theory.

The One-Electron Universe | Space Time​

 

[RestlessSoul]

Existing as a probability is completly distinct from actually existing.

Not if we accept the Many Worlds interpretation of QM it isn’t.