Shantanu
Well-Known Member
I could not even trust my own experiences of God intervention in my life for when I probed them they all turned out to have been delusional.
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God has to prove to me that He exists: what kind of proof should I demand?
- Thread starter Shantanu
- Start date
Shantanu
Well-Known Member
As long as I know this reality I can deal with it: I will find some other means to have my questions that I wish to converse with Him about, answered.
You're welcome.
Shantanu
Well-Known Member
Questions, questions...
Elliott5779
Member
i would suggest that if you wish to find out whether or not there is a G-d, you should make a trip to the one place in the world that every one calls "the Holy Land", see what answers you can get there. (Provided of course that you can make such a trip)
Shantanu
Well-Known Member
If God does not exist outside the Holy Land it is not for anyone outside to get worked up about, is it?
Our access to reality is through the subconscious mind. The subconscious mind tends to cater to our conscious view of reality. Even now perhaps it is catering to my atheist views though in not desiring any particular truth, it gives the subconscious mind less to work with IMO.
In your quality of life, does it really matter whether there is a God or not? You still go about life doing your best. You help, you love, you care. Even if there is a God, I don't see how they could ask anything else from you. Do your best, learn from your mistakes. I wouldn't expect anything more from my kids.
Elliott5779
Member
i'm sorry, i didn't say that nor did i mean to imply that. Just seemed logical to me that a place called "Holy Land" would be the best place to find answers. Not so logical afterall.
Shantanu
Well-Known Member
In the height of my delusions I imagined that my dreams were visions of events to unfold because God was warning me of the upheavals to come in my life and that it would all end up with greatness being achieved by me. None of which came true and I am therefore an atheist.
Shantanu
Well-Known Member
Not to worry: I was not offended at being told to go find the Holy Land if I wanted God or answers. The fact is that there is no God in my belief.
Elliott5779
Member
i understand that. i had a similar thing several years back.
Shantanu
Well-Known Member
If I was to demand proof of God's existence: I would say it is too late for me as I am already 62 years of age and set in my ways of truth accommodation for my dharma.
joe lewis
New Member
Our human brains are hardwired only to respond to stimuli in a very narrow range. For example we can't see radio waves, or gamma rays or hear ultrasonic sounds. We know such phenomena exist only because science and technology evolved to the point where they could be detected.
Given the non-physical and supernatural nature of any God(s) that may actually exist, and the current limitations of science, technology human intellect and consciousness, I wouldn't pin my hopes on any "proof" of Divinity through such means. Maybe the Universe we live in is explicitly designed not to allow us such proof. If the existence of Heaven and Hell were proven, everyone would do everything they possibly could, to become saint-like - to avoid the fires of Hell and reap the rewards of Heaven. If we knew that Jesus\Allah\Vishnu were watching our lives, and making decisions about our afterlives based on what they say, what saintly lives we would live!
But would behavior based on such knowledge be REAL spiritual growth? No, it wouldn't. The child who refrains from stealing candy because they fear the consequences of getting caught, is not the same as the child who refrains because it goes against their moral nature. Perhaps the moral\spiritual nature that mankind aspires to (or should aspire to) is not one that can be attained if it's based on fear of consequences or desire for rewards...fear and desire in things that can be PROVEN.
Now there are people throughout the ages who claim to have experienced subjective proof of God's existence - whatever that means to them. They have experienced it through religious\spiritual practices and usually when they have attained a certain amount of self-denial, self-discipline and selfless service. They usually have sacrificed - and maybe even suffered- a great deal before such "proof" has been experienced.
Maybe that's the way it works: maybe when we reach a state of spiritual growth that is based on who we are - as opposed to what we want (or don't want) to happen to who we are- we begin to see even a glimmer of real proof for our spiritual beliefs. By REAL proof, I mean phenomena that can't be explained by emotional projection, physical\psychological illness or abnormalities, self-induced states of consciousness (where we experience what we ourselves have created), wishful thinking, and all the other things that masquerade as manifestations of Divinity.
My suggestion to anyone who wants proof of God's existence is to follow whatever spiritual\religious paths that resonate with you and see where they take you. There are many religions to choose from, and there are many spiritual practices (e.g. forms of meditation). One thing I would definitely keep in mind is this: do NOT abandon reason on your quest (more thoughts about this at Reasoning About Religion) This advice sound like a no-brainer but god-by-delusion or god-by-fallacy are easy traps to fall into. For example, if we believe that God exists because of all the wonderful things that happen in our lives, then every wonderful thing that happens in our lives will be "proof" of God's existence. We'll forget that atheists too have remissions of cancer , win the lottery, find love when they most need it, and all the others thing that seem to pass for proof in this age of instant gratification and shallow thinking.
As another example, when the pastor is preaching, and tells the congregation "I can feel the presence of the Holy Spirit moving in the house today" and everyone in the congregation swears they felt it too, that doesn't necessarily mean the Holy Spirit was actually there! What might have been there instead is the Pastor's skill at appealing to -and manipulating - the emotions of the congregation, the strength of HIS belief that the Holy Spirit is right there visiting HIS church, and the powerful desire for such a visit to be real to the congregation. When we strongly want something to be true in a relationship - whether it's with a co-worker, friend or spouse - don't we will usually find "proof" of it's existence by interpreting reality in ways that substantiate our beliefs? Isn't that one of the reason that people go to therapists - so they can see reality more as it is, than how they perceive it to be.
If we can alter our perceptions of reality to "prove" assumptions about people who we can see, hear, touch and interact with in the physical world, how much more do we bend reality in the directions we want it to go when it comes to something that we have no sensory proof of - like God?
There is a passage in the Bible which says 'be still and know that I am God". For those who want to know God, perhaps that stillness is the result of decades of prayer and\or meditation.. Perhaps it's a solitary walk in nature... Perhaps it's listening to a piece of music or a painting. Perhaps we go our entire lives and never find any such stillness, any such God, or any such proof of even the possibility of God. But isn't it worth at least undertaking the journey of faith - with reason as our companion? Maybe what is most important right now isn't whether or not God exists, but whether or not we dare to prove - or disprove it - for ourselves. Another thing to keep in mind is that one of the greatest obstacles to finding truth is thinking we already have...
joe lewis
New Member
Our human brains are hardwired only to respond to stimuli in a very narrow range. For example we can't see radio waves, or gamma rays or hear ultrasonic sounds. We know such phenomena exist only because science and technology evolved to the point where they could be detected.
Given the non-physical and supernatural nature of any God(s) that may actually exist, and the current limitations of science, technology human intellect and consciousness, I wouldn't pin my hopes on any "proof" of Divinity through such means. Maybe the Universe we live in is explicitly designed not to allow us such proof. If the existence of Heaven and Hell were proven, everyone would do everything they possibly could, to become saint-like - to avoid the fires of Hell and reap the rewards of Heaven. If we knew that Jesus\Allah\Vishnu were watching our lives, and making decisions about our afterlives based on what they say, what saintly lives we would live!
But would behavior based on such knowledge be REAL spiritual growth? No, it wouldn't. The child who refrains from stealing candy because they fear the consequences of getting caught, is not the same as the child who refrains because it goes against their moral nature. Perhaps the moral\spiritual nature that mankind aspires to (or should aspire to) is not one that can be attained if it's based on fear of consequences or desire for rewards...fear and desire in things that can be PROVEN.
Now there are people throughout the ages who claim to have experienced subjective proof of God's existence - whatever that means to them. They have experienced it through religious\spiritual practices and usually when they have attained a certain amount of self-denial, self-discipline and selfless service. They usually have sacrificed - and maybe even suffered- a great deal before such "proof" has been experienced.
Maybe that's the way it works: maybe when we reach a state of spiritual growth that is based on who we are - as opposed to what we want (or don't want) to happen to who we are- we begin to see even a glimmer of real proof for our spiritual beliefs. By REAL proof, I mean phenomena that can't be explained by emotional projection, physical\psychological illness or abnormalities, self-induced states of consciousness (where we experience what we ourselves have created), wishful thinking, and all the other things that masquerade as manifestations of Divinity.
My suggestion to anyone who wants proof of God's existence is to follow whatever spiritual\religious paths that resonate with you and see where they take you. There are many religions to choose from, and there are many spiritual practices (e.g. forms of meditation). One thing I would definitely keep in mind is this: do NOT abandon reason on your quest (more thoughts about this at Reasoning About Religion) This advice sound like a no-brainer but god-by-delusion or god-by-fallacy are easy traps to fall into. For example, if we believe that God exists because of all the wonderful things that happen in our lives, then every wonderful thing that happens in our lives will be "proof" of God's existence. We'll forget that atheists too have remissions of cancer , win the lottery, find love when they most need it, and all the others thing that seem to pass for proof in this age of instant gratification and shallow thinking.
As another example, when the pastor is preaching, and tells the congregation "I can feel the presence of the Holy Spirit moving in the house today" and everyone in the congregation swears they felt it too, that doesn't necessarily mean the Holy Spirit was actually there! What might have been there instead is the Pastor's skill at appealing to -and manipulating - the emotions of the congregation, the strength of HIS belief that the Holy Spirit is right there visiting HIS church, and the powerful desire for such a visit to be real to the congregation. When we strongly want something to be true in a relationship - whether it's with a co-worker, friend or spouse - don't we will usually find "proof" of it's existence by interpreting reality in ways that substantiate our beliefs? Isn't that one of the reason that people go to therapists - so they can see reality more as it is, than how they perceive it to be.
If we can alter our perceptions of reality to "prove" assumptions about people who we can see, hear, touch and interact with in the physical world, how much more do we bend reality in the directions we want it to go when it comes to something that we have no sensory proof of - like God?
There is a passage in the Bible which says 'be still and know that I am God". For those who want to know God, perhaps that stillness is the result of decades of prayer and\or meditation.. Perhaps it's a solitary walk in nature... Perhaps it's listening to a piece of music or a painting. Perhaps we go our entire lives and never find any such stillness, any such God, or any such proof of even the possibility of God. But isn't it worth at least undertaking the journey of faith - with reason as our companion? Maybe what is most important right now isn't whether or not God exists, but whether or not we dare to prove - or disprove it - for ourselves. Another thing to keep in mind is that one of the greatest obstacles to finding truth is thinking we already have...
That might answer several questions, but certainly not the existence of God. I exist because my parents met and got a little carried away, shall we say. Oh, and because abortions were hard to come by in 1948, even by 15 year old girls.
Shantanu
Well-Known Member
I have no idea whether there is a God or not but if I do determine the answer to this question I will bear this in mind.
Workman
UNIQUE
Just out of curiosity..have you always been atheist?
Workman
UNIQUE
Reason why I say is because I was an atheist myself but a little more evil in its own kind of way..lol
It is never to late for one to believe!
The choice relies on you!
Not enough faith.
You're not suppose to test God.
You were supposed to learn some lesson by your lack of success.
Common excuses.
I'd presume if one was on the right path, God would give them all of the support they needed. Like the ability to turn staffs into snakes.