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God = He ?

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Common among the Venus figurines or so called “dolls”, all are women, no girls, boys or men “dolls”. All or most of the “dolls” are of fat women with large breasts. No “dolls” of animals.
That's because the Venuses exclude any figurines that isn't a female sculpture fitting certain criteria. Interestingly enough, though, this included some ridiculous claims about what was supposed to be a sculpture of a goddess figure:
988393.jpg


Now, most people would look at this and see how much it resembles a phallus, but despite "its striking resemblance to a phallus, feminist matriarchalists label the Dolni V'estonice baton an 'abstract female with breasts'"

They are not all fat, and the reason that most fit your description isn't because they are defined by that description.

Not one single doll of a cute cuddly bunny wabbit
Plenty of sculptures of animals and other things. They just weren't called "Venuses".
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
1) It doesn't
2) Even if it did, it wouldn't matter. It's the bible, not a mathematical proof.

Act 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great Goddess Artemis/Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.

Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.


Jer 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Jer 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.


Tens of thousands of Goddess statues - some still in their Shrines - have been dug up in Israel.

Biblical Archaeology has an article on these Goddess Statues.

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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
That's because the Venuses exclude any figurines that isn't a female sculpture fitting certain criteria. Interestingly enough, though, this included some ridiculous claims about what was supposed to be a sculpture of a goddess figure:
988393.jpg


Now, most people would look at this and see how much it resembles a phallus, but despite "its striking resemblance to a phallus, feminist matriarchalists label the Dolni V'estonice baton an 'abstract female with breasts'"

They are not all fat, and the reason that most fit your description isn't because they are defined by that description.


Plenty of sculptures of animals and other things. They just weren't called "Venuses".

LOL! Yeah right! Every penis has a pair of small testicles starting a third of the way down on the shaft, rather than the base.

This is a female shape with boobs in the right spot.


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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Act 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great Goddess Artemis/Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.
Point to the word in the Greek that is translated as "world".

Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.


Jer 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Jer 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

I'm not denying that goddesses were worshipped. Clearly they were, and clearly there were many queens of heaven and so forth. That has no relationship to the figurines of the paleolithic which all date to the period between 23,000 BCE to 21,000 BCE. As Dr. Cynthia Eller notes, "The Paleolithic Venuses, relatively few in number and tens of thousands of years old, provide us with few clues to their use or meaning."

Tens of thousands of Goddess statues - some still in their Shrines - have been dug up in Israel.

No, they haven't. Nor are we usually ever close to sure what figurines from prehistory were supposed to represent. I can't give you Bailey's book on the subject, but I can link you to an accessible article summarizing it and quote from what he says about such figurines:
"They are miniature, they are representational, and they depict the human form. In this sense, I made no distinction among prehistoric, ancient, or modern miniature, anthropomorphic representations. I assumed (as is justified by our knowledge of human evolution) that the ability to make, use, and understand symbolic objects such as figurines is an ability that is shared by all modern humans and thus is a capability that connects you, me, Neolithic men, women, and children, and the Paleolithic painters of caves.
In my work on the figurines of southeastern Europe from the Neolithic and Copper Age (6500–3500 cal. bc), I sought to understand what it was about these objects that would have made them succeed in their past functions (regardless of whether they were used as votives, toys, portraits, or the representation of divinities)...When the people of that Pre-Cucuteni community looked at their figurines, and when they placed the little bodies onto the little chairs, arranging (and rearranging) them into different scenes and settings, they were entering other worlds. It is entirely possible that these other worlds were spiritual, though I am not convinced that they were of the type that either Gimbutas or the excavators of Poduri-Dealul Ghindaru imagined."
The Figurines of Old Europe

For a more technical piece with "goddess figurines" that aren't shown in any books promoting the view that these figurines represent the goddess, I can't offer much that you wouldn't have to pay for but can give you something:
Naumov, G. (2010). Neolithic anthropocentrism: principles of imagery and the symbolic manifestation of corporeality in the Balkans. Documenta Praehistorica (Ljubljana), 37, 227-38.



Biblical Archaeology has an article on these Goddess Statues.
There are thousands of studies on these statues. I can probably link you to a hundred or more you can access for free and provide you several hundred more (all the way back to Ucko) by uploading them for you. That's without getting into the Catalhöyük debacle and the years wasted because of an inaccurate working model (see e.g. Refiguring the Corpus at Catalhöyük and one of the two uploaded studies).
 

Attachments

  • Archaeologists and Goddess Feminists at Çatalhöyük- An Experiment in Multivocality.pdf
    2.4 MB · Views: 208
  • The Interpretation of Prehistoric Anthropomorphic Figurines.pdf
    1.6 MB · Views: 332

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
LOL! Yeah right! Every penis has a pair of small testicles starting a third of the way down on the shaft, rather than the base.
Not to be indelicate, but dildos aren't new and require a handle.

How many phallic sculptures have you seen that were recovered by archaeologists of any period?

This is a female shape with boobs in the right spot.
Sure. Minus the head, belly, legs, face, arms, pubis, hair, etc.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Why is it that God is usually referenced as He or Him?

I find bestowing a human quality on God as a bad thing. Do you?

'Made in his image'.. it would seem illogical to me for God to make his primary beneficiaries of creation- beings he could not relate to.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'll be right back. I'll check.
You're going to compare something to what is essentially a dildo from prehistory? Or were you simply going to examine the proportions of the male anatomy using using a sample size of 1?

Why not do some actual research instead? It's much simpler, and you won't have to refer to penises as much nor use whatever one you intended to use for your empirical test.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
You're going to compare something to what is essentially a dildo from prehistory? Or were you simply going to examine the proportions of the male anatomy using using a sample size of 1?

Why not do some actual research instead? It's much simpler, and you won't have to refer to penises as much nor use whatever one you intended to use for your empirical test.

If someone would run a poll asking:

Does the following picture resemble:

(A) A skinny chick with large breasts
(B) An unlucky sap with small testicles
988393.jpg


What do you think the results would be?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If someone would run a poll asking:

Does the following picture resemble:

(A) A skinny chick with large breasts
(B) An unlucky sap with small testicles
988393.jpg


What do you think the results would be?

I don't have to. That's been done. I would ask of you what I asked of another: how many phallic figurines/sculptures uncovered by archaeologists from any period have you examined? And while we are are at it, how many examples of pornographic representations or sexual instruments from prehistory to (for no particular reason) the modernization of Japan have you studied?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
The Bible does NOT say Jesus is God, nor does Jesus teach that he is God.

There is NO trinity God idea in the Bible, nor does Jesus teach that he is part of a trinity.

He was claiming to be the Messiah, a special, awaited, Promised One, sent from God, to wrap things up, and bring about the end and Final Judgment.


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Interesting. What are your thoughts about Jesus's statement that we should worship only God combined with his acceptance of kneeling worship from Thomas, who said of Jesus, "My Lord AND my God"?
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Interesting. What are your thoughts about Jesus's statement that we should worship only God combined with his acceptance of kneeling worship from Thomas, who said of Jesus, "My Lord AND my God"?

That verse is a lead in to the little story. The climax or message to this little story is “Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
 

outhouse

Atheistically
1) It doesn't

And yet, you only used a known monotheistic source, as scriptural evidence.


Its not up for debate Israelites were polytheistic. You admit this.

It is also not up for debate Asherah was worshipped as one of these deities.


It Is not up for debate that she was a consort to El, so we have credible history of the relationship she played in mythology.

So there is no reason for you to go against Dever in the fact that Yahwehs Asherah is his consort. Not to mention the drawing that also makes that claim.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Yep, plus thousands of Goddess statues have been found in Israel alone, and hundreds of the ones found were still in their shrines. So - we know they were Goddesses.


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So Goddesses.


The only problem I have with this, is that she evolved from deity to cult status. The time period of which has changed back and forth multiple times depending on which time Israelites were wiped out and rebuilt themselves.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And yet, you only used a known monotheistic source, as scriptural evidence.

Wrong. In fact, I've relied mainly on epigraphic evidence and texts written in Ugaritic that aren't a part of any Jewish literature than I have any Jewish literature.


Its not up for debate Israelites were polytheistic. You admit this.
Yes,

It is also not up for debate Asherah was worshipped as one of these deities.
Not as clearly, no.


It Is not up for debate that she was a consort to El, so we have credible history of the relationship she played in mythology.

Ignoring the nuances of cultic practices defined by locality, El isn't Yahweh.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
That verse is a lead in to the little story. The climax or message to this little story is “Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
Heh... if I believed everything I did not see, I would end up believing many things that are irreconcilable with Christianity.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
need not be referring to the same goddess in two neighbouring cultures, and there is no possible way of ascertaining that the same theophoric name borne by two people living in the same city at the same time is indeed referring to the same god or goddess."

What we do have though, Is time in our favor. El was worshipped for thousands of years, as well as Asherah. The concepts evolved in time the same exact way it evolved in Judaism. Its not hard to see multiple cultures evolving at different amounts of mythology by cultural needs alone.

So we have a range of acceptable change, and nothing Dever has brought to the table is out of line with that change.

thesis rests upon the assumption of unification and on a few single "lines" of epigraphy relating

No. There is more then that, we have pre existing traditions mentioned above that give us more then a few single lines.

Now it is agreed there is a severe lack of evidence, for one to place to many certainties. But were not blind.

Israelites formed from pre existing traditions, and because these traditions did not change overnight, we see a pattern that can be used with high degrees of plausibility.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Ignoring the nuances of cultic practices defined by locality, El isn't Yahweh.

El is not Yahweh, but El was worshipped as a primary deity in times by some cultures of Judaism.

Some people were Yahwist who wanted these other groups to recognize him as taking over Els position. Add to that we have hundreds of years later the bible being redacted to monotheism and loyalty to Yahweh alone, and every trace of Els communities were compiled into Yahwehs traditions.




Not as clearly, no.

This does not negate her popularity. Just not as clear as El or Yahweh.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
, I've relied mainly on epigraphic evidence and texts written in Ugaritic

Which clearly show the deity family traditions, that define the same exact concepts Israelites evolved into one deity over a 600 year period.

We are dealing with a short period of time, compared to how long both Els and Asherahs traditions existed previously.

These traditions just didn't take a u-turn until the birth of monotheism.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Heh... if I believed everything I did not see, I would end up believing many things that are irreconcilable with Christianity.

The story is created to lead up to the last verse. The message being, to have faith. People reading this story nit pick, thinking it’s about a dead man walking the Earth. That’s not what it is about at all. Just step back and look at the whole story, then ask yourself, what is it about.
 
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