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God is disproven by science? Really?

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Nope. I’ve posted numerous links to CD-evolution-supporting websites
Here’s one:

You do further research.

Because I doubt you really have.

Like I said, I've been there. Seen them. You could too.

It doesn't appear you've even read the abstract you just posted.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Suddenly? 53+ million years is not suddenly. Also you are not taking into account the oxygenation of the planet which increased from -10% to +50% of present oxygen levels during that period.
I’m aware of the explanations given.
But it wasn’t 53 million. Nowhere near. That’s an old estimate.
And yes, these forms’ appearance was sudden . The revised 10 to 20 million years is the time it took for them to increase their range. I mean, after all, they’re found all over, from Europe, to the USA, to China.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member

Like I said, I've been there. Seen them. You could too.

It doesn't appear you've even read the abstract you just posted.
What does “without any obvious precursors “ mean to you?

Do you think I meant “no life existed before the Cambrian”?
I didn’t say that at all! What a strawman.

Stromatolites are not obvious precursors of the Cambrian fauna.

If I recall, you presented the same strawman in the past!
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
But it wasn’t 53 million. Nowhere near. That’s an old estimate.

Really, where has this been published?

The revised 10 to 20 million years is the time it took for them to increase their range

Do you realise how long 10 to 20 million years is... With much increase oxygenation to boot?
Why haven't you mentioned the increased oxygenation, do you even understand what the implication of higher oxygen levels is?

. I mean, after all, they’re found all over, from Europe, to the USA, to China.

Ever hear if Pangia?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I’m aware of the explanations given.
But it wasn’t 53 million. Nowhere near. That’s an old estimate.
And yes, these forms’ appearance was sudden . The revised 10 to 20 million years is the time it took for them to increase their range. I mean, after all, they’re found all over, from Europe, to the USA, to China.
The time taken to spread out is a quite different matter from the time taken for them to evolve.

That period is at least 20 million years, and that's if you ignore the strong possibility that many of the forms first appeared, without shelly coverings, in the preceding Ediacaran, leaving little trace in the record. 20 million years is hardly evidence of supernatural intervention - and it may have been 30-40 million.

One has to take into account the varying nature of selection pressures during geological time. One of the key developments during the Ediacaran was the development of the mouth. This greatly changed the environment for all organisms, developing a predator-prey relationship in the animal kingdom and thereby creating strong evolutionary pressures. One was to develop protective shells, hence the "sudden" (geologically speaking only) appearance of easily recognisable fossils for the first time. Another was various means of more rapid locomotion, both to catch prey and to escape from predators.

It's also important to keep in mind the rate of reproduction. For these small creatures, the turnover would have been rapid, allowing much faster selection of advantageous traits than would be the case for larger animals that reproduce more slowly. After all, the whale evolved, from something the size of a dog, in 55 million years, with one new generation every 10 years or so, whereas these Cambrian or pre-Cambrian creatures would have gone through several generations in 3 months or so.

There is nothing in the Cambrian radiation to suggest processes that cannot be accounted for by evolution.
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
What does “without any obvious precursors “ mean to you?

Do you think I meant “no life existed before the Cambrian”?
I didn’t say that at all! What a strawman.

Stromatolites are not obvious precursors of the Cambrian fauna.

If I recall, you presented the same strawman in the past!
It's pretty hard to find "obvious " precursors when they did not have hard body parts to fossilise easily.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Nope. I’ve posted numerous links to CD-evolution-supporting websites
Here’s one:

You do further research.

Because I doubt you really have.
Not a chance you have
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
What does “without any obvious precursors “ mean to you?

Do you think I meant “no life existed before the Cambrian”?
I didn’t say that at all! What a strawman.

Stromatolites are not obvious precursors of the Cambrian fauna.

If I recall, you presented the same strawman in the past!
It doesn't seem you actually know what you are arguing for. If you agree that life existed before the Cambrian, then what's the big problem? Are you assuming that all existing animal phyla we see today were "created" by your god during this period? That wouldn't be accurate either.


"Let us begin by talking briefly about the pre-Cambrian. Creationists who deal with the “sudden appearance” argument like to leave students with the impression that the Cambrian explosion actually provides fossil evidence for the Creation as described in the books of Genesis. They will therefore conveniently neglect to present the clear fossil evidence that life extends back to at least 3.5 billion years before the present. To address this misconception, teachers should show students some of the many images of pre-Cambrian microfossils that are available on the web. The University of California Museum of Paleontology—http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu—is a good place to start. Other good sites include: www.pnas.org/content/97/13/6947.figures-only and Request Rejected. Teachers should make it clear that these pre-Cambrian microfossils account for the majority of the history of life (about 80% of it in fact). If inclined to be philosophical, teachers might also raise a question here about why it took such a long time (i.e., just under three billion years) to evolve the earliest animals. Why were nearly three billion years required before single-celled creatures could give rise to the first animals?

The second point to make about the pre-Cambrian fossil record is that there are already a number of animal fossils present in rocks of late pre-Cambrian age—now often designated as the Ediacaran period. Although the precise phyletic affinities of these fossils are not fully resolved, there are clearly sponges, radial animals, and some bilateral forms present. Furthermore, there is additional evidence from molecular clock studies and paleobiogeography that many of the taxa that first appear as distinct fossils in the Cambrian have roots that extend well back (tens of millions of years back) into the pre-Cambrian (Knoll and Carroll 1999; Lieberman 2003). This should also be a central point that teachers make. In other words, the Cambrian explosion does not document the “sudden appearance” of all animal phyla. A significant number of animal phyla are already present prior to the explosion. It is simply that we remain unsure of their exact classification precisely because they are so different from living animals. To illustrate this, a page within the Berkeley museum site provides a series of excellent pictures and descriptions of these pre-Cambrian animal fossils (Vendian Animals).





"Most scientists are persuaded that something significant happened at the dawn of the Cambrian era and view the Cambrian Explosion as an area of exciting and productive research. For example, scientists are now gaining a better understanding of what existed before the Cambrian Explosion as a result of new fossil discoveries. Recent discoveries are filling in the fossil record for the Precambrian fauna with soft-bodied organisms like those in the Ediacaran Assemblages found around the world.7 Late Precambrian fossil discoveries also now include representatives of sponges, cnidarians (the group that includes modern jellyfish, corals and anemones), mollusks and various wormlike groups. Some of the new fossil discoveries, in fact, appear to be more primitive precursors of the later Cambrian body plans. The discovery of such precursors shows that the Cambrian organisms did not appear from thin air.8 Further discoveries will no doubt reveal more clearly the relationship of Precambrian organisms with the creatures found in the Burgess Shale and Chengjiang deposits.9
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Oh brother! The Cambrian Explosion, with the fossil record revealing numerous new life forms appearing suddenly without any obvious precursors, is just one piece of evidence among others that supports an ID interpretation. Cellular machinery, and the lack of evidence that natural selection could build those complex structures, is another.

“The force - er, faith - is strong in this one.”
Nope, this has been explained to you many times. Do we have to do so again? Own up to your own rudeness and I will kindly explain, with links. Remain silent and it will be just a tacit admission that you are wrong.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I’m aware of the explanations given.
But it wasn’t 53 million. Nowhere near. That’s an old estimate.
And yes, these forms’ appearance was sudden . The revised 10 to 20 million years is the time it took for them to increase their range. I mean, after all, they’re found all over, from Europe, to the USA, to China.
No, that is the time pot took for some new phyla to appear. That is not about "range". And if one counts all phyla you are back to that 53 million year estimate. Also we have animal life precursors. You know that. Your previous post indicates that where you had to use a dishonest weasel term to avoid lying outright.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
This is not science. This is philosophy.
Not true, as there are such things in science called hypotheses and theorems.

Instead, theology is much more like philosophy since almost nothing can be established without a doubt. For example, you and I believe in God, right? But how can we prove there's only 1 god? How can we prove there's any god at all?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Many of us do understand why it says those things. You make the error of assuming that they have any grounds in reality.


And no, confirmation bias is worthless. You are afraid to test your ideas properly.
The reality is that maybe you think men including women of course, can duplicate the basic elements of life? By figuring it out?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Not true, as there are such things in science called hypotheses and theorems.

Instead, theology is much more like philosophy since almost nothing can be established without a doubt. For example, you and I believe in God, right? But how can we prove there's only 1 god? How can we prove there's any god at all?
About reality I wonder how many of those killing others in Russia and Ukraine consider themselves "believers" in Christ.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Not true, as there are such things in science called hypotheses and theorems.

Instead, theology is much more like philosophy since almost nothing can be established without a doubt. For example, you and I believe in God, right? But how can we prove there's only 1 god? How can we prove there's any god at all?
Yeah archaeologists are changing their thoughts as to Jesus based on the known status of Rome and Israel at the time of Jesus, the one you think maybe didn't exist.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The reality is that maybe you think men including women of course, can duplicate the basic elements of life? By figuring it out?
What makes you think that they can't? I need to remind you just because it is far beyond your ability, and mine actually, to solve this problem,, it does not mean that it is beyond the ability of others. Quite a few of the problems of abiogenesis have been solved. In so doing they have found that we may never know the exact path. Not because it is impossible, but because for certain problems there is more than one way to solve them. It is like when a person tries to reconstruct the journey that someone else took. There might be areas where he took Smith street or Jones street. But we know that he took the journey.

Meanwhile creation "scientists" cannot seem to find any scientific evidence at all for their beliefs.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
“Explained”?! These conundrums have never once been explained! (Complex cellular structures, evolving even through graded steps, is simply assumed.)

Is it hard for you to be honest about the evidence?
Yes, that has all been explained to you. And they are "conundrums" only to you. And why bear false witness against your neighbors? Just because you may not understand a reasonable and logical conclusion that does not mean others do not.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Yes, that has all been explained to you. And they are "conundrums" only to you. And why bear false witness against your neighbors? Just because you may not understand a reasonable and logical conclusion that does not mean others do not.
We can understand that not everyone thinks clearly.
That they can be so influenced by aspects of their religion
as to be rendered incapable of rational thought.

And obviously, many have been educationally deprived.


But for the one spouting garbage to call
doshonest those who attempt to educate
them, that's a bit much.

Including the astounding incapacity to self examine.
 
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