"God is greater than reason"

[Willamena]

Logic is a system of human thought, not a vital force of the cosmos. I was being precise.

Now, granted, things have to make sense. That doesn't mean they have to make sense to US.

"Making sense" is a product of thought, too. If it doesn't make sense to "us", there's no one left.

 

[PolyHedral]

Which has what to do with it's existance?

Nothing, because "existence" no longer means anything. A thing can exist and not exist simultaneously, and whether or not it exists is totally independent of any effects it has on the world.

 

[Storm]

If they're very likely wrong, please explain how the network of a billion transistors inside your computer works. The models we have come up with so far are very accurate, to the point where we can design structures that work correctly down to the atomic level.

The fact that we're accomplished tool-makers does not imply we understand the cosmos.

This is second hand, but I've heard that Stephen Hawking's The Universe In A Nutshell mentions that 96% of the cosmos seems to be "dark matter," which we don't understand at all. So, assuming that anecdote is true, our "models of the universe" are sadly overhyped.

Yes, but a universe that isn't constrained by logic is almost literally inconceivable.

Kinda my point. Please, don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying WE don't require logic to function; we absolutely do. But we should bear in mind that the universe is as it is regardless of what we think.

 

[Storm]

"Making sense" is a product of thought, too. If it doesn't make sense to "us", there's no one left.

Unless there is.

 

[PolyHedral]

The fact that we're accomplished tool-makers does not imply we understand the cosmos.

But we have to have understood the cosmos to produce these tools. Surely it is impossible to produce a transistor without understanding how an electron behaves?

This is second hand, but I've heard that Stephen Hawking's The Universe In A Nutshell mentions that 96% of the cosmos seems to be "dark matter," which we don't understand at all. So, assuming that anecdote is true, our "models of the universe" are sadly overhyped.

There are many theories that tell us what "dark matter" is, we just can't distinguish them ATM.

 

[Storm]

But we have to have understood the cosmos to produce these tools. Surely it is impossible to produce a transistor without understanding how an electron behaves?

Pieces, sure. Not the whole.

There are many theories that tell us what "dark matter" is, we just can't distinguish them ATM.

IOW, we have no clue.

Also, I think you should have said "hypostheses." We can't have many competing theories.

 

[PolyHedral]

IOW, we have no clue.

We have lots of clues, not our fault they form multiple equally valid jigsaws.

Also, I think you should have said "hypostheses." We can't have many competing theories.

Oops, yes. That was inaccuracy on my part.

 

[Storm]

We have lots of clues, not our fault they form multiple equally valid jigsaws.

LOL!

Oops, yes. That was inaccuracy on my part.

Sorry, I can be fussy about precise language.

 

[Thief]

Logic is necessary for any model of the universe to function. If we say that God isn't bound by logic, then we allow impossibilities. For instance, "logic" includes the notion that an object must exist to have effects.

Could this line of thought explain why God allows you to suffer?

 

[PolyHedral]

No, because that line of logic says that God doesn't allow us to suffer.

 

[Thief]

No, because that line of logic says that God doesn't allow us to suffer.

So logic rules over all...including God?...
That's like putting the cart in front of the horse.

One preceded the other...guess which One.....

 

[gnostic]

So logic rules over all...including God?...
That's like putting the cart in front of the horse.

One preceded the other...guess which One.....

If god rules over logic, then using your horse analogy, it would be like hanging a carrot in front of the horse. The cart will be pulled, but the horse will never eat the carrot. Eventually the horse will die of exhaustion and starvation.

If you equate the carrot with gospels, then the carrot is giving false hope to the horse, but this owner, who can be consider a god, is just using the horse and toying with the horse. Or in your case, the gospels are giving you false hope of an afterlife, toying with promises that this god can't keep.

 

[Thief]

If god rules over logic, then using your horse analogy, it would be like hanging a carrot in front of the horse. The cart will be pulled, but the horse will never eat the carrot. Eventually the horse will die of exhaustion and starvation.

If you equate the carrot with gospels, then the carrot is giving false hope to the horse, but this owner, who can be consider a god, is just using the horse and toying with the horse. Or in your case, the gospels are giving you false hope of an afterlife, toying with promises that this god can't keep.

Poor retort of metaphor on your part....confusing precedence with motivation.

 

[gnostic]

Poor retort of metaphor on your part....confusing precedence with motivation.

At least, I invented mine.

You've simply stole someone's metaphor...

That's like putting the cart in front of the horse.

...either because you lack imagination...or you're simply lazy.

 

[PolyHedral]

So logic rules over all...including God?...
That's like putting the cart in front of the horse.

One preceded the other...guess which One.....

Logic. Otherwise the concept of god is meaningless.

 

[sandandfoam]

Logic. Otherwise the concept of god is meaningless.

I'm inclined to think that from any given human perspective everything is inherently meaningless except in relation to the meaning maker.
We are meaning making machines and meaning exists only relative to ourselves.

 

[Willamena]

Otherwise the concept of god is meaningless.

And the concept of logic is meaningless.

 

[budha3]

God is reason, this is why He is so diffucult to comprehend. if you think that we reason just look around you.

 

[PolyHedral]

*does so*
I see a large amount of creations, none of which could have been engineered without reasoning.

And I'm not sure the statement "God is reason" makes any sense, considering reason is an entirely abstract concept.

 

[Thief]

*does so*
I see a large amount of creations, none of which could have been engineered without reasoning.

And I'm not sure the statement "God is reason" makes any sense, considering reason is an entirely abstract concept.

Maybe crossing the meaning of 'reason', and the meaning of 'cause', is part of the difficulty in this thread.

Did God have reason to be creative?
or cause to do so?

And this could then extend to any discussion....
why create Man?
why the flood in Noah's time?
why destroy Sodom and Gomorrah only to never repeat such action?
why this?...why that?

Maybe God is beyond reason.....He doesn't need to think about it.
Maybe He just reflexes....emotionally.

But that would make Him dangerous to deal with...would it not?
What if He has no feelings for you?