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God is love and just
- Thread starter Starlight
- Start date
If God forgave the wicked, he wouldn't have punished the Pharaoh.
If God forgave the wicked, he wouldn't have given Samson the strength to destroy the temple of Dagon with all the Philistines.
The Bible shows that it's not fair that innocent people get killed.
And that whoever kills them, will be judged by God.
If God forgave the wicked, he wouldn't have given Samson the strength to destroy the temple of Dagon with all the Philistines.
The Bible shows that it's not fair that innocent people get killed.
And that whoever kills them, will be judged by God.
This is a faith claim
It would be good were it true but that doesn't make it true
And I don't think the bible supports that faith claim
Unless you ignore the parts that don't support it, which I think is dishonest
I think the bible doesn't support the idea of a just and loving God unless you ignore the bits you don't like
If you do that then you effectively reject the bible as a source of authority
Starlight
Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
No that is not only a claim.
psalms 36:7 How priceless is your unfailing love, O God! People take refuge in the shadow of your wings.
psalms 109:26 Help me, LORD my God; save me according to your unfailing love.
1 John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them
isaiah 30:18Therefore the Lord waits to be gracious to you, and therefore he exalts himself to show mercy to you. For the Lord is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for him.
isaiah 5:16But the Lord of hosts is exalted in justice, and the Holy God shows himself holy in righteousness.
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I don't care what scripture saysNo that is not only a claim.
Psalms 36:7
7 How priceless is your unfailing love, O God! People take refuge in the shadow of your wings.
Psalms 109:26
26 Help me, LORD my God; save me according to your unfailing love.
1 John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
Isaiah 30:18
Therefore the Lord waits to be gracious to you, and therefore he exalts himself to show mercy to you. For the Lord is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for him.
Isaiah 5:16
But the Lord of hosts is exalted in justice, and the Holy God shows himself holy in righteousness.
If I wanted to I could use scripture to try and show that the God of the Bible is evil
What you've done with those scripture proves nothing and doesn't change the fact that the biblical God does evil and unjust things, which make him evil and unjust!
And if the Bible is the word of God then I don't think we can trust what it says about God!
What the bible says about the character of God is offset by what God actually does
You're cherry picking to support a position that the overall content of the Bible doesn't support
Starlight
Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Read this. It is a good explanation. God is not evil
This is a question that participants of The Great Adventure Bible studies frequently ask us, and it’s a tough one to answer. We know that God is all good and all loving. In fact, “God is love” (1 John 4:8). And yet, in the Old Testament, we find various scenes in which God’s people are called to “destroy” other nations. Here’s one example:
Yikes! These do not sound like the words of a God who “is love.” Troublesome passages like this remind us why it is so important to understand how to interpret Scripture “in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it” (see Catechism of the Catholic Church 111-114). Based on this text alone, without proper context, it’s easy to see why someone might think that God commands evil. If we are to understand what is happening here, then we need to keep in mind the following criteria for biblical interpretation:“When the LORD your God brings you into the land which you are entering to take possession of it, and clears away many nations before you … and you defeat them; then you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant with them, and show no mercy to them” (Deuteronomy 7:1-2)
- Pay attention to the “content and unity of the whole of Scripture” (CCC 112). In other words, the rest of Scripture should help to make sense of this passage. So we can turn to similar passages of the Bible to help shed light on this question.
- Read the Bible in light of the “living Tradition” of the Church (CCC 113). We have to take into account what God has revealed to us not only in the written words of Scripture, but also in Sacred Tradition. The Church’s teaching on the command, “Thou shalt not kill,” is that “no one can under any circumstance claim for himself the right directly to destroy an innocent human being” (CCC 2258).
- We need to remember that there is a “coherence of truths of the faith” (CCC 113). This means that our faith is not self-contradicting. We cannot say it was morally acceptable for the Israelites to kill innocent people then, but that it is no longer acceptable in our day.
We know it’s never morally acceptable to intentionally kill innocent persons. We also know that God is all good. So what was God asking Israel to do in this passage? Was he calling them to act in an evil way by killing innocent persons? Two other stories in Scripture should help to answer this question.
Abraham, God, and Sodom (Genesis 18-19)
In this story, Abraham is like a defense attorney pleading for clemency on behalf of Sodom (a city with some serious problems, as we learn in Genesis 19). Abraham asks God,Abraham affirms that God is just, and it’s unjust to kill righteous persons. So Abraham asks God if he would spare Sodom if there were fifty, forty, thirty, or ten righteous people in Sodom. In each instance God says that he “will spare the whole place for their sake.” From this we learn that God is indeed just, and he will not kill the innocent. As the Catechism says, “God is infinitely good and all his works are good” (CCC 385). “God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil” (CCC 311). The interesting thing is that God does end up destroying Sodom in Genesis 19. Does that mean there wasn’t a single righteous person among them? Were there no innocent children? Or is there something more to this scene? Let’s look at our next story and see how it can help explain what might be happening.
The Battle of Jericho (Joshua 6)
Jericho was a city within the Promised Land spoken of in Deuteronomy 7; part of a nation that was to be “utterly destroyed.” In the book of Joshua we see Israel besiege and attack Jericho “putting to the sword all living creatures in the city: men and women, young and old, as well as oxen, sheep and donkeys” (Joshua 6:21). What is happening here? A literalistic interpretation of this passage brings us back to where we started: It would seem God was commanding the death of the innocent, including the young. But is this the only possible way to interpret this text? When we read Scripture, it’s important to distinguish between a literal and a literalistic interpretation of a text. The literalist interprets every word of Scripture as literal, historical truth; and does not distinguish among the various types of writing found in Scripture—including poetry and metaphor.
A literal understanding of Scripture recognizes that “truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing” (CCC 110). Is the author of Joshua really intending to say that every single living creature in Jericho was utterly destroyed, including innocent children? The problem with this view is that the story itself has an exception to Jericho’s utter destruction. Rahab and her family are spared (see Joshua 6:25). Is it possible that in these examples the sense of utter destruction was not meant to be understood literally, but was used as an expression? Could this refer to a great—but not total—devastation? We use similar expressions frequently. For example, if I described a comedy I really enjoyed and said “I was dying of laughter,” you wouldn’t begin thinking that I was literally dying. You know that’s just an expression for how funny something was. So too, the idea that “every living creature” in Jericho was killed is quite possibly just an expression.
What’s Deuteronomy Calling Israel to Do?
We know from Abraham’s conversation with God that God does not punish the innocent. So it’s not likely Deuteronomy intended to say that God was commanding the death of everyone. In fact, Deuteronomy goes on to say, “You shall not make marriages with them, giving your daughters to their sons or taking their daughters for your sons” (Deuteronomy 7:3). Why would Deuteronomy need to forbid intermarriage with these nations if they were to be utterly destroyed? There would be no one left to marry among them. It’s more likely that the phrase “utterly destroy” was used as an expression.Perhaps it was intended to describe a complete victory for Israel; a victory that meant separating themselves from anything that might get in the way of their relationship with God. Actually, that’s the reason Deuteronomy gives for this command, “For [the nations] would turn your sons from following me to serving other gods, and then the anger of the LORD would flare up against you and he would quickly destroy you” (Deuteronomy 7:4). This interpretation would mean that God did not command evil. Rather he commanded Israel to avoid evil by removing those temptations that might lead them astray. Christ uses a similar expression in the New Testament to describe avoiding sin:
Christ is not speaking literally. He’s using an expression to illustrate the severity of what he is saying. So the lesson here is, don’t literally cut off your hand, pluck out your eye, or lay waste to a nation. Instead, remove those things in your life that draw you away from the Lord. It’s better to separate yourself from those things than to find yourself separated from God.
Does God Command Evil Acts in the Bible? - Ascension Press Media
We know God is all good and all loving. And yet, in the Old Testament we find various scenes in which God’s people are called to “destroy” other nations.
media.ascensionpress.com
Read itRead this. It is a good explanation. God is not evil
This is a question that participants of The Great Adventure Bible studies frequently ask us, and it’s a tough one to answer. We know that God is all good and all loving. In fact, “God is love” (1 John 4:8). And yet, in the Old Testament, we find various scenes in which God’s people are called to “destroy” other nations. Here’s one example:
Yikes! These do not sound like the words of a God who “is love.” Troublesome passages like this remind us why it is so important to understand how to interpret Scripture “in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it” (see Catechism of the Catholic Church 111-114). Based on this text alone, without proper context, it’s easy to see why someone might think that God commands evil. If we are to understand what is happening here, then we need to keep in mind the following criteria for biblical interpretation:
So if God is good, and it’s never morally acceptable to intentionally destroy an innocent person, how are we to understand this? Consider what St. Augustine said about difficult passages of Scripture:
- Pay attention to the “content and unity of the whole of Scripture” (CCC 112). In other words, the rest of Scripture should help to make sense of this passage. So we can turn to similar passages of the Bible to help shed light on this question.
- Read the Bible in light of the “living Tradition” of the Church (CCC 113). We have to take into account what God has revealed to us not only in the written words of Scripture, but also in Sacred Tradition. The Church’s teaching on the command, “Thou shalt not kill,” is that “no one can under any circumstance claim for himself the right directly to destroy an innocent human being” (CCC 2258).
- We need to remember that there is a “coherence of truths of the faith” (CCC 113). This means that our faith is not self-contradicting. We cannot say it was morally acceptable for the Israelites to kill innocent people then, but that it is no longer acceptable in our day.
We know it’s never morally acceptable to intentionally kill innocent persons. We also know that God is all good. So what was God asking Israel to do in this passage? Was he calling them to act in an evil way by killing innocent persons? Two other stories in Scripture should help to answer this question.
Abraham, God, and Sodom (Genesis 18-19)
In this story, Abraham is like a defense attorney pleading for clemency on behalf of Sodom (a city with some serious problems, as we learn in Genesis 19). Abraham asks God,
Abraham affirms that God is just, and it’s unjust to kill righteous persons. So Abraham asks God if he would spare Sodom if there were fifty, forty, thirty, or ten righteous people in Sodom. In each instance God says that he “will spare the whole place for their sake.” From this we learn that God is indeed just, and he will not kill the innocent. As the Catechism says, “God is infinitely good and all his works are good” (CCC 385). “God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil” (CCC 311). The interesting thing is that God does end up destroying Sodom in Genesis 19. Does that mean there wasn’t a single righteous person among them? Were there no innocent children? Or is there something more to this scene? Let’s look at our next story and see how it can help explain what might be happening.
The Battle of Jericho (Joshua 6)
Jericho was a city within the Promised Land spoken of in Deuteronomy 7; part of a nation that was to be “utterly destroyed.” In the book of Joshua we see Israel besiege and attack Jericho “putting to the sword all living creatures in the city: men and women, young and old, as well as oxen, sheep and donkeys” (Joshua 6:21). What is happening here? A literalistic interpretation of this passage brings us back to where we started: It would seem God was commanding the death of the innocent, including the young. But is this the only possible way to interpret this text? When we read Scripture, it’s important to distinguish between a literal and a literalistic interpretation of a text. The literalist interprets every word of Scripture as literal, historical truth; and does not distinguish among the various types of writing found in Scripture—including poetry and metaphor.
A literal understanding of Scripture recognizes that “truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing” (CCC 110). Is the author of Joshua really intending to say that every single living creature in Jericho was utterly destroyed, including innocent children? The problem with this view is that the story itself has an exception to Jericho’s utter destruction. Rahab and her family are spared (see Joshua 6:25). Is it possible that in these examples the sense of utter destruction was not meant to be understood literally, but was used as an expression? Could this refer to a great—but not total—devastation? We use similar expressions frequently. For example, if I described a comedy I really enjoyed and said “I was dying of laughter,” you wouldn’t begin thinking that I was literally dying. You know that’s just an expression for how funny something was. So too, the idea that “every living creature” in Jericho was killed is quite possibly just an expression.
What’s Deuteronomy Calling Israel to Do?
We know from Abraham’s conversation with God that God does not punish the innocent. So it’s not likely Deuteronomy intended to say that God was commanding the death of everyone. In fact, Deuteronomy goes on to say, “You shall not make marriages with them, giving your daughters to their sons or taking their daughters for your sons” (Deuteronomy 7:3). Why would Deuteronomy need to forbid intermarriage with these nations if they were to be utterly destroyed? There would be no one left to marry among them. It’s more likely that the phrase “utterly destroy” was used as an expression.
Perhaps it was intended to describe a complete victory for Israel; a victory that meant separating themselves from anything that might get in the way of their relationship with God. Actually, that’s the reason Deuteronomy gives for this command, “For [the nations] would turn your sons from following me to serving other gods, and then the anger of the LORD would flare up against you and he would quickly destroy you” (Deuteronomy 7:4). This interpretation would mean that God did not command evil. Rather he commanded Israel to avoid evil by removing those temptations that might lead them astray. Christ uses a similar expression in the New Testament to describe avoiding sin:
Christ is not speaking literally. He’s using an expression to illustrate the severity of what he is saying. So the lesson here is, don’t literally cut off your hand, pluck out your eye, or lay waste to a nation. Instead, remove those things in your life that draw you away from the Lord. It’s better to separate yourself from those things than to find yourself separated from God.
Does God Command Evil Acts in the Bible? - Ascension Press Media
We know God is all good and all loving. And yet, in the Old Testament we find various scenes in which God’s people are called to “destroy” other nations.
It's just wishful thinking and tenuous mental gymnastics
It's not about truth, it's about feeling good and wishful thinking
It's unconvincing and intellectually dishonest appologetics
This picture is what I think about Yahweh, the God of the bible:
The Old Testament God is a completely different God - he is neither love nor just. He is a jealous, violent, vindictive God. I would suggest not reading the Old Testament, just stick to the NT.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I don't believe the stories in the Bible where innocent people get killed at God's hands are true stories.
I believe the OT anthropomorphizes God. God does not kill people because God is not a man.
Jesus is probably the only one truly innocent to be killed. I don't think it was a problem, because God raised him from death and death is not the end, if we believe Bible.
Watching this scene, I only see a Just God, who is rightfully angry at the wicked who crucified his Son.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Let's forget about all the stories in the bible for a second and just focus on one simple thing:
Do you believe that only christians can enter heaven? Meaning everyone else goes to hell?
IOW, without "believing in and accepting Jesus as your savior", it is impossible to go to heaven and therefor you default to hell?
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
I wouldn’t go that far. But I would agree that the OT God is a very different God concept from the loving father of the Gospels.
Carl Jung described YHWH as a God concept which embodied opposites in undivided form.
It’s certainly a challenge to reconcile the two, at least until one is willing to embrace paradox and contradiction as fundamental qualities of human experience.
McBell
Unbound
I think you only needs to replace "or" with "and"
God is not Omnipotent. He can't prevent anyone from doing evil.
Unfortunately the Romans mistranslated the word Pantokrator that means the one who rules over everything.
But they used Omnipotens (Almighty) and they should have used the Latin word Omniregens instead.
I don't see any opposites in YHWH. I just see nastiness, no love or compassion. If there are any passages in the OT showing YHWH expressing love or compassion for all humanity (except maybe in the Psalms) you should point them out to me.
I think in YHWH, the people who conceived of him, imagined a God in their image. They assumed that God would be pretty much like them, someone who expected strict obedience and hated their enemies.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The death of Jesus on the cross was supposed to be a sacrifice.
May I ask you a question? If God raised Jesus from the dead, Jesus was only dead for a few days. How does that constitute a 'sacrifice' on the part of God or Jesus?
Absolutely not.
By this way, Caiaphas and Pilate should be saints by now, for enabling it. And yet they are in Hell, according to the RCC. Judas too of course.
It wasn't.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Then why is it called the cross sacrifice?
Sacrifice of the Cross | Encyclopedia.com
SACRIFICE OF THE CROSS The sacrifice of the cross and the glorious resurrection of christ converge into one paschal mystery, which is the central event in human history (Thomas Aquinas, Summa theologiae 3a, 62.5 ad 3). All salvation history anterior to Calvary has been but a shadowy prelude to...
Christ's sacrifice on the cross – EasyEnglish Bible (Hebrews 9)
Hebrews 9:23-10:18 EasyEnglish Bible (EASY) – Christ's sacrifice on the cross – 23 The tabernacle and the things that were in it needed animals' blood to make them clean. That was a picture of the true place …
www.easyenglish.bible
It's like I save a friend from being run over by a car, and I end up being run over by the same car.Then why is it called the cross sacrifice?
Sacrifice of the Cross | Encyclopedia.com
SACRIFICE OF THE CROSS The sacrifice of the cross and the glorious resurrection of christ converge into one paschal mystery, which is the central event in human history (Thomas Aquinas, Summa theologiae 3a, 62.5 ad 3). All salvation history anterior to Calvary has been but a shadowy prelude to...www.encyclopedia.com
Christ's sacrifice on the cross – EasyEnglish Bible (Hebrews 9)
Hebrews 9:23-10:18 EasyEnglish Bible (EASY) – Christ's sacrifice on the cross – 23 The tabernacle and the things that were in it needed animals' blood to make them clean. That was a picture of the true place …
I sacrificed myself. Out of love.
Does this mean I wanted to die?
Does this mean the mad driver is a good person?