God is not in the Big Bang

[Nick Soapdish]

Sorry Pah, but I am feeling critical tonight. I hope you take my comments constructively.

when interaction is weak the string looks like a string

Really? When has anyone "looked" at a string? Or are you saying it is structured like a string? If so, does the structure of a real string not have smaller "components", and if the M-theory string had smaller components, then they would not be fundamental?

when the interaction is strong the strings "unwrap" into a membrane

Again, "unwrapping" sounds like something that a composite structure does, not a fundamental object.

membranes ripple (a wave motion) and the collision of two membranes created the Big Bang producing the pecularities of our universe by the circumstances of the ripples

If the Universe did not exist yet, where did these membranes live? If they collided, what laws of physics was this collision operating under?

an infinate number of collisions have taken place producing an infinite number of universes

the science fiction "parallel" universe is confirmed by the M Therory.

the laws of physics may be different in each universe.

Is this science or fancy speculation? Are the notions of fact, evidence and verification important in this theory? How could we possibly know this, much less confirm it?

If the concept of God is to be kept, then it will be imposible to prove that there are not an infinite number of gods.

Is there a rule that God can only have one Universe?

 

[Nick Soapdish]

It's an exciting theory.

I must admit that I am surprised by this. Your receptiveness to this theory does not seem to be affected by the theory's startling lack of fact.

Perhaps it is not upon the basis of fact that you are receptive to a theory, but rather whether you perceive it to be benign with regards to its potential to inspire dangerous ideals.

 

[Fatmop]

Your receptiveness to this theory does not seem to be affected by the theory's startling lack of fact.

What do you mean by 'fact?' Sure, you can't see a string... but show me a quark! Failing that, try telling me quarks don't exist... and you'll get a run for your money!

 

[Nick Soapdish]

What do you mean by 'fact?' Sure, you can't see a string... but show me a quark! Failing that, try telling me quarks don't exist... and you'll get a run for your money!

I mean evidence. To me string theory is an interesting mathematical exercise that simply adds dimensions until the gravitational force and the three electromagnetic forces can be reconciled. I will confess it has been a while since I have read about it and I would be interested in hearing what sort of predictive power the theory has given us.

 

[Fatmop]

Yeah, same here really. I don't know much about it, and I'm not claiming to put my faith in it. I was just being contrarian - maybe that's why I love arguing so much.

 

[Popeyesays]

Without time god cannot exist without time and man the inventor of time has invented god. It is mathematically impossible to go before Planck time 10 -60 currently. Unless you are a physics genius it is impossible to say that god existed before the big bang and therefore ever existed.

Einstein once said "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings." I agree

God is not in the BANG, I agree. What CAUSED the BANG? There is no evidence, but the bang is the initial effect of all that exists. How can one have an effect without a cause?
That's where science can never go, and mankind can never prove. Its entirely mysterious.

"Lauded be Thy name, O Lord my God! I testify that Thou wast a hidden Treasure wrapped within 49 Thine immemorial Being and an impenetrable Mystery enshrined in Thine own Essence. Wishing to reveal Thyself, Thou didst call into being the Greater and the Lesser Worlds, and didst choose Man above all Thy creatures, and didst make Him a sign of both of these worlds, O Thou Who art our Lord, the Most Compassionate!"
(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 48)

By the by why cannot God exist without time? That's not a warranted assumption.

Regards,
Scott

 

[michel]

God is not in the BANG, I agree. What CAUSED the BANG? There is no evidence, but the bang is the initial effect of all that exists. How can one have an effect without a cause?
That's where science can never go, and mankind can never prove. Its entirely mysterious.

"Lauded be Thy name, O Lord my God! I testify that Thou wast a hidden Treasure wrapped within 49 Thine immemorial Being and an impenetrable Mystery enshrined in Thine own Essence. Wishing to reveal Thyself, Thou didst call into being the Greater and the Lesser Worlds, and didst choose Man above all Thy creatures, and didst make Him a sign of both of these worlds, O Thou Who art our Lord, the Most Compassionate!"
(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 48)

By the by why cannot God exist without time? That's not a warranted assumption.

Regards,
Scott

Ah well, I knew there was a reason for me to keep a sortcut to a site; try http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html
(that's all about pre bang and strings, loops, and lassoos; sorry, The mere thought of the site scares me into thinking I won't understand a word - but you might)

By the by why cannot God exist without time? That's not a warranted assumption.

I agree. With my usual obnoxious lack of scientific knowledge or any form of basis from which I can construct a theory, I believe that there are dimensions about which we know nothing. Who is to say that one of them has no 'time' ?

I know time is a man made measurement (whoever said that before me), but that measurement is based on our 'day' (which is a natural phenomenon); but who is to say what happens in parallel dimensions........?

Oh, no; I've been and gone and thought too much, and now my brain hurts............

 

[JerryL]

God is not in the BANG, I agree. What CAUSED the BANG? There is no evidence, but the bang is the initial effect of all that exists.

Stretching the language like that has got to hurt.

What you just wrote says that all that exists caused the Big Bang.

Of course, that's not what you ment. You ment to subtly introduce the idea that the Big Bang was an effect as though it was accepted fact, so you could use this premise to prove your argument.

Of course, there may have been a cause for the Big Bang. If someone says "God", you will say "right" and if someone says anything else, you will call that something else an "effect" and repeat.

Prove that the Big Bang is an effect.

 

[Blood Stone]

You can not create something from nothing and this has led to the religious theroy that the Big Bang must have been intitiated by God for something (the universe) was created from nothing (the state of matter/energy previous to the Big Bang) If a cause, other than God, was found that explained the Big Bang, then it would not be neccessary for God to exist.

Well, folks, we have proof in mathematical theroy that we know what was present previous to the Big Bang. Basically, it goes like this -

• the universe we live in is not seem as particles but as strings
• strings exist in 22 or 21 dimensions and fewer
• strings are the component of membranes (shortened to "branes")
• membranes encompass both 21 and 22 dimensions
• M Theroy (membranes) have an infinite number of branes comprised of an infinite number of strings
• when interaction is weak the string looks like a string
• when the interaction is strong the strings "unwrap" into a membrane
• membranes ripple (a wave motion) and the collision of two membranes created the Big Bang producing the pecularities of our universe by the circumstances of the ripples
• an infinate number of collisions have taken place producing an infinite number of universes
• each universe created by a collision is considered an alternate universe to ours
• the science fiction "parallel" universe is confirmed by the M Therory.
• the laws of physics may be different in each universe.

Not only does the creation story not reflect the actual galaxy we live in, it does not reflect the universe we live in except from an extrapolation from a melding of science and a mythological creation story. If the concept of God is to be kept, then it will be imposible to prove that there are not an infinite number of gods. Rather, it seems more and more likely that God will take a "back seat" to science and beneficial only for a mythological basis for human existence and conduct.

-pah-

Where did the strings come from? I saw a program on this but I stopped studying physics a few years ago. You can't get something from nothing the string things had to come from somewhere so no matter how complicated the theory or how good the science at the end of the day something completely timeless and everlasting would have to be the cause of the universe. As such in my opinion (though not an expert opinion) God is the only LOGICAL cause of the universe.

 

[michel]

Where did the strings come from? I saw a program on this but I stopped studying physics a few years ago. You can't get something from nothing the string things had to come from somewhere so no matter how complicated the theory or how good the science at the end of the day something completely timeless and everlasting would have to be the cause of the universe. As such in my opinion (though not an expert opinion) God is the only LOGICAL cause of the universe.

heh, Logical to someone who is prepared to believe in a deity, but to those who do not, there is no logic there, I'm afraid........it is just a case of filling in a blank with something convenient.
The trouble with wanting to get to the very beginning is that you will never know; as a Christian, I can't believe in I.D, nor Creation (as portrayed in Genesis). I have come to the conclusion that to want to know how the 'beginning started' is just an academic point, which really has little effect on us.

 

[Apex]

I see a lot of people are focusing on strings and string theory here, but thats not the only theory. There are also quantum gravity, loop quantum gravity, and the five or so different versions of string theory and super string theory. It basically all comes down to one simple fact, we cant explain the universe. This is why I dont understand why people can be so sure God does not exist, when we cant even explain why we exist much less God. How are we supposed to explain something larger then us when we cant even explain us? However the search for a quantum gravity theory is extremley interesting. If anyone wants to learn more about it I suggest Three Roads to Quantum Gravity by Lee Smolin. Its a very good book that does a great job at explaining. Ive already read it and I actually gave a group speech in COM last week on this topic.

 

[terraflata]

I dont see how people can say God can't exist outside of time. Time is relative.

People also say that you can travel back in time if you can move faster than the speed of light, I dont beleive thats true, you can simply move faster than it takes for things to react. And moving faster than time doesn't put you in a location to put in effect a desired reaction.

Obviously you can have something from nothing. On any level of this whenever you get to the next level, it always falls to the inevitable "But where did that come from?

I enjoy theories and such but its a circular arguement.

Terra Flata

 

[Apex]

Actually you travel further in time (or into the future) when you aproach the speed of light. You cant travel at or faster the speed of light. And they have proven that you travel into the future if move faster.

 

[Solon]

Quite, faster than light travel will never be possible, because as Einstein proved, any object approaching light speed would gain so much mass that no amount of energy could be produced to overcome the increasing mass and propel said object faster than light.

S

 

[Super Universe]

Hardly.

The force of gravity is comparatively weak compared to the strong electric forces that keep atoms together. However the strong electric force breaks down in intense gravity fields.

Now take all of the matter in the universe and put it in a singularity, you have the strongest gravity field conceivable.

Now how does this intense gravity field explode in a big bang?

 

[JerryL]

Hardly.

The force of gravity is comparatively weak compared to the strong electric forces that keep atoms together. However the strong electric force breaks down in intense gravity fields.

Now take all of the matter in the universe and put it in a singularity, you have the strongest gravity field conceivable.

Now how does this intense gravity field explode in a big bang?

It seems less like there was a big piece of timespace with a point of matter that exploded; and more like timespace itself was condensed to essentially nothing then rapidly expanded; taking the matter-energy with it.

 

[Soundoc]

You can not create something from nothing -pah-

The above statement becomes nonsense when we read the first book (Genesis) of the Holy Bible.

The Holy Bible teaches that Almighty God , the Creator of the universe is light.

Science teaches us that light is energy. it also teaches us that energy is convertible to matter or power and vice versa. When coal is burned to produce electricity, we see matter being converted to a power, which in turn is converted into light in a light bulb. On my radio, it is converted into sound.

It just goes to prove that Almighty God who IS infinite light and thus infinite power which is never exhausted, can create anything from SEEMINGLY nothing as far as we are concerned. But for Him, it is nothing.

So any time somebody thinks that there has to be something in the first place in order to create another thing, be careful because with Almighty God all things are possible. His Name is Almighty God and it means He can do anything He wants.

For example when He wanted to come down to earth as a human being to TEACH us how to live lives that please Him (Our Father), He just took on human flesh in a Virgin's womb and came out as the baby Jesus Christ. He Himself gave the name Jesus to Himself before He was born, thru an angel called Gabriel.

 

[Soundoc]

Gravity can never exist if there is only one body in space. By definition, gravity is the pulling FORCE of a big body on small bodies in the vicinity of the big one.

Now if all matter gobbed together to form one body no matter how big, (or small) the instant all beome one, gravity will go to ZERO.

I am not a scientist. I am using my Almighty-God-given common sense with just the sciene I learened in school.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I have no problem with the big bang theory. When God created the universe it went bang. Problem solved.

 

[religion-science]

String theory hasn't been proven, it is one possibility in many of how the universe was formed. I also have a problem with this idea of "God" being somethign tangable i dont think that we can say "this is how the big bang happened therefore god dosn't exist".