God is simple, not complex.

[Desert Snake]

How can one determine if God is simple or complex since these things are relative. What are we to compare God's simpleness or complexity to?

Good point.

 

[Desert Snake]

No.

I'm thinking yes.
Some 'problems' that immediately come to mind.
Subjectivity. Others have brought this up. You have an arbitrary standard for defining the terms.
Assumption of compound word meanings. Ie, 'Is this cheeseburger actually a burrito?'

 

[Desert Snake]

When introducing the possibility of a meaning change you have to define the word being discussed. This is a problem, because we have a 'open ended' word, for all intents and purposes. If we don't have an open ended word, if you are using that perspective, then the definition defeats the argument.

 

[Desert Snake]

For example, 'I think that (------------) is simple, not complex.
Ok, cool. I think it's a cheeseburger.

 

[Looncall]

God is the one who livens the whole system up. God wills it. God is a life giving Spirit. The complex system is laid out and then it is livened up. But what is the complexity, the word or spokesman brings it and this is the spirit that is in Jesus as scriptures relate.

This is how we as humans operate. We have energy by the will with belief and the complexity comes in the various emphasis of emotion that is placed on the words spoken.

How can you demonstrate that any of this is true? Even to yourself.

 

[AllanV]

How can you demonstrate that any of this is true? Even to yourself.

I have seen and know this in spite of myself.

The scriptures read that man is made in God's image. There is a comparison to be made.

This is how we as humans operate. We have energy by the will with belief and the complexity comes in the various emphasis of emotion that is placed on the words spoken.

I get what it means.

We should be able to make much more efficient energy devices and a technology that uses dimensional effects that can travel distance with very little apparent movement. This is predictable.
My information tells me it has already been done.

 

[Parsimony]

The term "information" literally means the process of being "in-formed." Human beings are informed (or receive information) from something other than themselves. God does not.

Pieces of knowledge have to be differentiated from one-another in order for them to actually be distinguishable. One is not the same as two and as such any being which contains knowledge of both one and two has to store them as separate entities. Infinite numbers equal infinite information content. It doesn't matter whether the information is obtained from another source or is intrinsic to the being. The result is the same: infinite complexity is needed to store infinite information/knowledge.

 

[AllanV]

Pieces of knowledge have to be differentiated from one-another in order for them to actually be distinguishable. One is not the same as two and as such any being which contains knowledge of both one and two has to store them as separate entities. Infinite numbers equal infinite information content. It doesn't matter whether the information is obtained from another source or is intrinsic to the being. The result is the same: infinite complexity is needed to store infinite information/knowledge.

The scriptures are saying that infinity with no movement sustains complexity with movement.
Every object takes up space and God is also in that space. The human body is complex and contains information but this limits the minds ability because it is absorbed in survival on two levels. Feeding the body and self with ego.
God is in the space or volume and sustains the life in it and the appearance of the body.

 

[Gambit]

So "will" is the most simply thing?

God is identical with his will.

It is the simplest thing.

The term "nothing" means "not anything." So, it is not the simplest thing because it doesn't exist.

Absolute infinite isn't the simplest, but the collection of all complexity.

The term "infinite" can be understood in either a quantitative sense or a qualitative sense. It seems that Cantor held it in this latter sense when he identified it as God.

Cantor is quoted as saying:

The actual infinite arises in three contexts: first when it is realized in the most complete form, in a fully independent otherworldly being, in Deo, where I call it the Absolute Infinite or simply Absolute; second when it occurs in the contingent, created world; third when the mind grasps it in abstracto as a mathematical magnitude, number or order type.[3]

(source: Wikipedia: Absolute Infinite)

Cantor not only linked the Absolute Infinite with God but also "held that the Absolute Infinite had various mathematical properties, including the reflection principle which says that every property of the Absolute Infinite is also held by some smaller object.[2]" (source: Wikipedia: Absolute Infinite) This is interesting because the "reflection principle" has a striking parallel with the theological concept of "imitability" (to imitate or make an image of).

By way, an empty set is not nothing.

The empty set is not the same thing as nothing; rather, it is a set with nothing inside it and a set is always something.

(source: Wikipedia: Empty set)

Another point to make here, the reason why atheists claim God must be more complex is because of some arguments that this world is so complex that it has to have a creator. That argument suggests that God must be more complex, not simpler.

I suspect many atheists are simply parroting Richard Dawkins' argument.

Dawkins does not claim to disprove God with absolute certainty. Instead, he suggests as a general principle that simpler explanations are preferable (see Occam's razor), and that an omniscient or omnipotent God must be extremely complex

(source; Wikipedia: The God Delusion)

 

[Ouroboros]

God is identical with his will.

Which isn't simple. To have a will is to know things and have intent.

But if you just use the term "will" to mean force or energy, then I'd might be able to agree.

The term "nothing" means "not anything." So, it is not the simplest thing because it doesn't exist.

Ok. But nothing is still simpler than something.

The term "infinite" can be understood in either a quantitative sense or a qualitative sense. It seems that Cantor held it in this latter sense when he identified it as God.

Which isn't the same as simple, in neither qualitative or quantitative sense.

Cantor not only linked the Absolute Infinite with God but also "held that the Absolute Infinite had various mathematical properties, including the reflection principle which says that every property of the Absolute Infinite is also held by some smaller object.[2]" (source: Wikipedia: Absolute Infinite) This is interesting because the "reflection principle" has a striking parallel with the theological concept of "imitability" (to imitate or make an image of).

Seems like it's getting more complex.

By way, an empty set is not nothing.

It's still less than a non-empty set.

I suspect many atheists are simply parroting Richard Dawkins' argument.

Maybe, but I know I used the same argument many years ago when debating with Christians about God's properties or existence. To say that the world is too complex not to have a creator is to suggest a complex creator. This watch is too complex to have been made out of chance, there's a watchmaker who made it. That means a watchmaker is... simple?

 

[Midget01]

If God is so simple then why is it so hard to describe him. He is beyond any word that our simple vocabulary has to do this. I would hardly presume that I could ever with all the words I could conjure up describe my Creator, Savior and my All. I am a mere human with limited knowledge even the Angels in heaven have more knowledge in their little thumb then I have accumulated in the 68 years of my life on this earth. Each of us has received a piece of God at creation and until we are all rejoined with him in heaven we will never perhaps to get to see Him in His entirety. We can sense Him , know some things about Him and witness His actions but we can never truly know Him and all He can, will do for us and be for us. He is God and we are His people.

 

[ImaTroll]

Atheists seem to have this basic misunderstanding that God is complex. This is not true. God is simple, not complex. In theology, this is known as the doctrine of "divine simplicity." (This is why I can argue that God is the most parsimonious explanation for why there is something rather than nothing.)

if GOD is so simple, then why is humanity so complex? how can the creator be less complex than the creation?

 

[Maranatha]

Atheists seem to have this basic misunderstanding that God is complex. This is not true. God is simple, not complex. In theology, this is known as the doctrine of "divine simplicity." (This is why I can argue that God is the most parsimonious explanation for why there is something rather than nothing.)

I agree 100%.

It frustrates me that Atheists often 'create' the simplest, uniform, most child-like rendition of 'God' to then dismiss it (in other words they build a straw man).

God is simpler than anything we could ever imagine. The essential nature of reality is one. Seperation is an illusion. There is nothing simpler than true reality, once we've cast off the illusions created and reinforced by our thirsty egos.

 

[Maranatha]

if GOD is so simple, then why is humanity so complex? how can the creator be less complex than the creation?

The complexity is an illusion. Imagine being asked to describe an ocean, and you stand by the edge of the ocean and start to describe the dimensions, sizes and characteristics of each and every wave. The waves are constantly changing so just as you're describing one it changes and no longer resembles the wave you were about to describe!

Pretty complex huh?

Or, looked at with a different perspective, you look out to the ocean and see that, despite the impermanence in it's characteristics and form, it is made completely out of one essence; water. The form and characteristics of each complex wave do not change the fact that the whole ocean is water.

Such is life. It is our human egos that create separation, and then try to cling to our current form, in a world of apparant complexity. But in essence, life is very, very, simple.

 

[ImaTroll]

The complexity is an illusion. Imagine being asked to describe an ocean, and you stand by the edge of the ocean and start to describe the dimensions, sizes and characteristics of each and every wave. The waves are constantly changing so just as you're describing one it changes and no longer resembles the wave you were about to describe!

Pretty complex huh?

Or, looked at with a different perspective, you look out to the ocean and see that, despite the impermanence in it's characteristics and form, it is made completely out of one essence; water. The form and characteristics of each complex wave do not change the fact that the whole ocean is water.

Such is life. It is our human egos that create separation, and then try to cling to our current form, in a world of apparant complexity. But in essence, life is very, very, simple.

is a human brain ultimately capable of comprehending such a simplicity?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The waves are constantly changing so just as you're describing one it changes and no longer resembles the wave you were about to describe!

I live by the sea, and I sit and look at waves from time to time. I'm pretty sure it's a natural system, like the weather, like the universe. It's all a process, inherently cyclical, both complex and simple at the same time. I have no idea what "God" has to do with any of it though.

 

[Conceivia]

I could explain exactly what God is, as a living organism, self aware and extremely intelligent, made up of all life on Earth. A purely information based organism, like a virus, with no physical matter making up its body. A collective intelligence, originating from the idea of collaboration or love.

Obviously, a difficult thing for people to understand.

Or I could say... God is love.

That simple statement is literally the entire essence of God. It may take an extremely intelligent person to understand the science behind that, but many people just seem to know it without any concept of the science behind it.

Tony

 

[Parsimony]

The scriptures are saying that infinity with no movement sustains complexity with movement.
Every object takes up space and God is also in that space. The human body is complex and contains information but this limits the minds ability because it is absorbed in survival on two levels. Feeding the body and self with ego.
God is in the space or volume and sustains the life in it and the appearance of the body.

I'm sorry Allan, but I'm having trouble understanding how your post relates to the question of whether God is simple or complex.

 

[Straw Dog]

"Simplicity is difficult for twisted minds." - A Course in Miracles

Yes, but it's nothing original. Many traditions have emphasized simplicity. The contingent complexity of the cosmos is beyond our comprehension. We only seem to know relative perspectives. We may infer a real context, but to claim knowledge of an absolute perspective is to draw real conclusions from relative premises.

What does God or ultimate reality have to do with simplicity, specifically?

According to your view, how do we untwist our minds?

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Atheists seem to have this basic misunderstanding that God is complex. This is not true. God is simple, not complex. In theology, this is known as the doctrine of "divine simplicity." (This is why I can argue that God is the most parsimonious explanation for why there is something rather than nothing.)

I think that God is Truth and Truth is God. The only question is whether that Truth is conscious and self-aware or not. In either case, Truth is pretty complex.