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God is simple, not complex

Pudding

Well-Known Member
This is to correct a common misunderstanding that many atheists seem to have, namely, the mistaken belief that God is complex. God is simple, not complex.
Which aspect of God do you think is simple? Why do you think it's simple? How simple you think God is?
Is "God is simple but not complex" your beliefs or knowledge or speculation? What does your beliefs/knowledge/speculation base on? How true is it?

Can you elaborate the beliefs that "God is complex" which you have hear from those many atheists?
Which aspect of God do they think is complex? Why do they think it's complex? How complex they think God is?

God is simple/complex as:
- his word(written in the holy book)/personality/power/existence is simple/complex?
- it's simple/complex for human to understand God's word(written in the holy book)/personality/power/existence?
- etc...

Please explain otherwise your op is confusing and can be interpret into many version.

God is simple, not complex. That's why God is the most parsimonious explanation for the mystery of existence - for why there is something rather than nothing.
How parsimonious the explanation is?
Does a parsimonious explanation in any way indicate that it's reliable or trustable?
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
don't believe in the devil?
Now see your making what is simple into a nightmare, no I personally don't believe in all that rubbish, I have my way of seeing what is, you have your way, no need to think one is right and the other is wrong, that's just being childish.
 

Pudding

Well-Known Member
I would appreciate if you can also answer the other questions in my post, and answer in text format rather than in video format.
 

Pudding

Well-Known Member
Please elaborate how those many atheists think "God is complex" and your rebuttal to their respective opinion.
 

Reflex

Active Member
Yes it should be simple but its not, just take a look at any religion and you will see that they make a big song and dance about it all.
It does seem that way, but interpretations about God have nothing at all to do with either the reality of God or Watts' argument. It remains that either the living God is, or he is not.
 

Gambit

Well-Known Member
You have absolutely no reliable means of inquiry that would allow you to assert "god is simple"

Sure I do. It's called the method of philosophy.

and you have no operational definitions for "simple" and "complex".

simple : having few parts

complex : having parts that connect or go together in complicated ways

(source: Merriam-Webster)

God is without parts. Is that simple enough for you?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Mm. Think its the other way around. Believers see him as "mysterious; cant be understood; beyond mere human knowledge; not like us; and so forth" thats making god complex.

Atheist, from so far I heard, said

"God 'could be' just mythology, not aware of us, fictional, impossible to know that he exists (agnostic), based on culture and psychology, based on human need to find meaning" Thats simple.

Why do believers make the supernatural so "special" and complicated for that matter?

You mixed up the 'atheist' description with other stuff that may or may not have anything to do with what you were referencing.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
It does seem that way, but interpretations about God have nothing at all to do with either the reality of God or Watts' argument. It remains that either the living God is, or he is not.
Yes that is true, I know which I would pick if I had to.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
You mixed up the 'atheist' description with other stuff that may or may not have anything to do with what you were referencing.

That's what I hear atheists say when they explain god. I'm not saying that is what an atheist things (as a definition) but it is what atheists (as people rather than the word) have said when they explained god.

Believers tend to not define god or have a "he is higher than us; beyond us" type of thing. If we, with our limited minds (as they say) cannot comprehend god, how could god be simple to us. He is quite complicated for us not to understand him.
 

Reflex

Active Member
Believers tend to not define god or have a "he is higher than us; beyond us" type of thing. If we, with our limited minds (as they say) cannot comprehend god, how could god be simple to us. He is quite complicated for us not to understand him.

As I said, the DDS fascinates me. I think the understanding of innate knowledge, of "I am-ness," is progressive and can never be more than relative to the Actual. That is what we're actually talking about, isn't it?

But in the absence of divergencies, mind finds no basis upon which to attempt to formulate understanding concepts. Mind is unifying of divergencies, but it simply cannot grasp the concept of Ultimate Reality without attempting first to break the unity of such a reality. And that's where the difficulty lies. After all is said and done, "It matters little what idea of the Father you may entertain as long as you are spiritually acquainted with the ideal of his infinite and eternal nature.”
 
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Curious George

Veteran Member
To say the doctrine has been dismantled to its very core does not mean it has been dismantled.

Let's dispense with "intuition" and discuss what Watts said:

A way of life and thought which denies or ignores the existence of God is bound to end in dissolution and self-contradiction. If this is not sufficiently proved by the state of futility to which Humanism and rationalism have brought us, a state of in humanity and irrationality, all that remains necessary is to reason the matter out. From the standpoint of reason the conclusion that God exists is absolutely unavoidable; to demonstrate this truth was the greatest and perhaps the most permanent achievement of mediaeval philosophy, and in particular of St. Thomas. The only way to escape this conclusion is to deny the validity of reason, which is merely to make argument, philosophy, and almost every form of discussion and thought impossible.

Either the living God is, or he is not. Either the ultimate Reality is alive, conscious and intelligent, or it is not. If it is, then it is what we call God. If it is not, it must be some form of blind process, law, energy or substance entirely devoid of any meaning save that which man himself gives to it. Nobody has ever been able to suggest a reasonable alternative. To say that Reality is quite beyond thought, and therefore cannot be designated by such small, human terms as “conscious” and “intelligent” is only to say that God is immeasurably greater than man. And the theist will agree that he is infinitely greater. To argue that Reality is not a blind energy but a “living principle,” an “impersonal super-consciousness,” or an “impersonal mind” is merely to play with words and indulge in terminological contradictions. A “living principle” means about as much as a black whiteness, and to speak of an “impersonal mind” is like talking about a circular square. It is the result, of course, of misunderstanding the word “personal” as used of God—as if it meant that God is an organism, form, or composite structure like man, something resembling Haeckel’s “gaseous vertebrate.” But the word is not used at all in that sense. From many points of view the term “personal” is badly chosen, but it means simply that God is alive in the fullest possible way.

If the ultimate Reality is indeed a blind energy or process devoid of inherent meaning, if it is merely an unconscious permutation and oscillation of waves, particles or what not, certain consequences follow. Human consciousness is obviously a part or an effect of this Reality. We are bound, then, to come to one of two conclusions. On the one hand, we shall have to say that the effect, consciousness, is a property lacking to its entire cause—in short, that something has come out of nothing. Or, on the other hand, we shall have to say that consciousness is a special form of unconsciousness—in short, that it is not really conscious. For the first of these two conclusions there neither is nor can be any serious argument; not even a rationalist would maintain the possibility of an effect without a sufficient cause. The main arguments against theism follow, in principle, the second conclusion—that the properties and qualities of human nature, consciousness, reason, meaning, and the like, do not constitute any new element or property over and above the natural and mechanical processes which cause them. Because Reality itself is a blind mechanism, so is man. Meaning, consciousness, and intelligence are purely arbitrary and relative terms given to certain highly complex mechanical structures.

But the argument dissolves itself. If consciousness and intelligence are forms of mechanism, the opinions and judgements of intelligence are products of mechanical (or statistical) necessity. This must apply to all opinions and judgements, for all are equally mere phenomena of the mechanical world-process. There can be no question of one judgement being more true than another, any more than there can be question of the phenomenon fish being more true than the phenomenon bird. But among these phenomena are the judgements of the rationalist, and to them he must apply the logic of his own reasoning. He must admit that they have no more claim to truth than the judgements of the theist, and that if rationalism is true it is very probably not true. This is intellectual suicide—the total destruction of thought—to such a degree that even the rationalist’s own concepts of mechanism, unconscious process, statistical necessity, and the like, also become purely arbitrary and meaningless terms. To hold such a view of the universe consistently, one must separate oneself, the observer, from it. But this cannot be done, for which reason a contemporary philosopher has complained that man’s subjective presence constitutes the greatest obstacle to philosophical knowledge!

Now this is pure nonsense. Man’s subjective presence is, of course, the very condition of knowledge both of the universe and of God. It is precisely the existence of man in the universe as a conscious, reflecting self that makes it logically necessary to believe in God. A universe containing self-conscious beings must have a cause sufficient to produce such beings, a cause which must at least have the property of self-consciousness. This property cannot simply “evolve” from protoplasm or stellar energy, because this would mean that more consciousness is the result of less consciousness and no consciousness. Evolution is, therefore, a transition from the potential to the actual, wherein the new powers and qualities constantly acquired are derived, not from the potential, but from a superior type of life.
Watts was wrong to suppose that not even a rationalist would not maintain the possibility of an effect entirely absent in its cause. Some clearly do believe in "FM." Now, I imagine that someone with the screen name of "Emergence" will argue that emergence is all one needs. But emergence is the process of preexisting conditions: it is "a transition from the potential to the actual, wherein the new powers and qualities constantly acquired are derived, not from the potential, but from a superior type of life." Now, you can argue otherwise, of course, but only at the expense of doing away with reason altogether.

But that is a price atheists seem willing to pay.
This is a gem of a quote and I imagine if I were to discuss with watts this subject, he might very well hand me my ***, but leave me unconvinced. However, I would without fail be given much food for thought.

I would suggest that the concept of truth is divorced from "meaning" and these notions, that truth dissolves because judgements are by-products of meaningless mechanical processes, are wrong. Granted, we are limited in our truth inquiry to contingent truth alone. But, not all contingent truths are equal. Rather, we can differentiate among them based on their contingencies. Moreover, if such a world view voids all meaning (though I would argue internal consistency replaces meaning and morality) so be it. That some feel such an outlook is so bleak, as to make and accept god as axiomatic is hardly surprising. But if we are to pursue such a route sans "intuition" let us see where it leads.

Firstly a simple god must be immutable. Therefore destroying any religion whereupon we find an avatar including Aquinas' Christianity. Next, the conception of god--though not a person as we describe it-- as is classically used, is also erroneous for god cannot think; immutability must entail an entity (or essence, if you would prefer) that is devoid of thought. Now following this rabbit hole we should also find that an entity devoid of thought must necessarily also be devoid of meaning. In fact, as we look at this simplex with a closer eye, we will eventually determine such a singularity to be the blind arbitrary process that watts insists invalidates reason.

So, we can chase down divine simplicity, but we end up in the same position with the only addition of some extra-universal substance sustaining our existence. That, my friend, is FM.

Understanding this, we can take a closer look at watts' dichotomy and realize it must be false. It is not between god and no truth because either road watts lays out leads to no truth. The dichotomy is between truth and no truth. God never enters the equation. We have axioms onto which we build contingent truths, into which we build more contingent truths ad infinitum. Truth is only so if it is internally consistent with this chain. Therefore we must be reserved when we choose our axioms to begin these chains. Making god, even a divinely simple one, into an axiom is a mistake. If there is a god, acceptance of that truth should derive from easily accepted, simple--if you will-- axioms upon which we are forced to rely. So, do not propose as watts mistakenly does, that lack of god dissolves reasoning. Rather, if you want to make a case, do so with sound reasoning and build from accepted axioms. Chances are you will at best arrive at the Forms, another well thought and well authored argument, as did Plato. But such an argument is only compatible with the abrahamic religion if one is very generous with the mental gymnastics. Thus, it is not the most "parsimonious" explanation.

To that end, I fully admit that others here such as @outhouse and @Shad are more versed than I in philosophy, theology, and the history and evolution of the abrahamic religions. Perhaps they will pick up the gauntlet and engage you in further discussion as I must regretfully tap out of this discussion, which I entered only to highlight an equivocation. I will continue to read your and others posts here, so by all means, take the last words. I will appreciate learning from you and reading materials you source.

Cheers
 

Reflex

Active Member
I would like to go through your last post line by line, but it's late for me and I already had this prepared:

Here's the kicker where the "God is simple" notion is concerned: On one hand, the very idea of divine simplicity is inimical to change; on the other hand, to deny the possibility of God's volitional self-limitation amounts to a denial of the concept of his volitional absoluteness. God can pass from simplicity to complexity, from identity to variation, from quiescence to motion, from infinity to finitude, from the divine to the human, and from unity to duality and even triunity because divine immutability does not imply immobility. God has will — he is will; his nature or personhood is permanence in the presence of change.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
What is objective truth?

What is subjective truth?

If you really don't know, I'd be happy to go on. Not to put too fine a point to it, but someone who'd posted ~2500 messages here yet didn't know that, would appear to have the primary objective of being intentionally obtuse and spreading obfuscation.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Then how can there exist both objective and subjective Truth?
Because "the truth," besides referring to truth, is also used to refer to that which is true.

Truth itself is neither objective nor subjective.


Yeah, but the then complexity comes when you try to surmise what it means if God is or God isn't.
It's "is" and "is not" that makes things complicated. Do away with those, and you've simplified.

They are judgement. Judge not.
 
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