Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
God/Jesus sinned. Genocide is a sin of high order.
This is a truth.
I will entertain opposing views.
Regards
DL
This is a truth.
I will entertain opposing views.
Regards
DL
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God/Jesus sinned. Genocide is a sin of high order.
- Thread starter Greatest I am
- Start date
ayani
member
Deuteronomy 9:1-5
Hear, O Israel. You are now about to cross the Jordan to go in and dispossess nations greater and stronger than you, with large cities that have walls up to the sky. The people are strong and tall—Anakites! You know about them and have heard it said: "Who can stand up against the Anakites?" But be assured today that the LORD your God is the one who goes across ahead of you like a devouring fire. He will destroy them; he will subdue them before you. And you will drive them out and annihilate them quickly, as the LORD has promised you. After the LORD your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, "The LORD has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness." No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is going to drive them out before you.It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
yes, God does order the killing of these nations. in the contemporary sense, it is genocide, as entire peoples are wiped out. yet God makes it clear that He has ordered this because of the great sin, evil, and ungratitude of these nations. examples of their practices include idolatry, sacrificing their own children to their gods. God controls history, as well. He is more than capable of using one nation to destroy another, if that nation's sin and evil is great. in fact, He uses other nations to rebuke His own people when they repeatedly break their promises to Him, and turn from righteousness to evil- despite having His law, and despite repeated warnings.
now before you mention Abraham and Issac, theres a big difference. God does not command His people to burn their children alive yearly to appease Him in great ceremonies, as was done by the Canaanite peoples. He asks one man, Abraham, to give up his beloved son. as Abraham is about to obey God, out of love and obedience, God stops the sacrifice- and provides a ram instead of the son. as to why and how God would ask this of Abraham, the Book of Hebrews says this :
By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death. (11:17-19)
Hear, O Israel. You are now about to cross the Jordan to go in and dispossess nations greater and stronger than you, with large cities that have walls up to the sky. The people are strong and tall—Anakites! You know about them and have heard it said: "Who can stand up against the Anakites?" But be assured today that the LORD your God is the one who goes across ahead of you like a devouring fire. He will destroy them; he will subdue them before you. And you will drive them out and annihilate them quickly, as the LORD has promised you. After the LORD your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, "The LORD has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness." No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is going to drive them out before you.It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
yes, God does order the killing of these nations. in the contemporary sense, it is genocide, as entire peoples are wiped out. yet God makes it clear that He has ordered this because of the great sin, evil, and ungratitude of these nations. examples of their practices include idolatry, sacrificing their own children to their gods. God controls history, as well. He is more than capable of using one nation to destroy another, if that nation's sin and evil is great. in fact, He uses other nations to rebuke His own people when they repeatedly break their promises to Him, and turn from righteousness to evil- despite having His law, and despite repeated warnings.
now before you mention Abraham and Issac, theres a big difference. God does not command His people to burn their children alive yearly to appease Him in great ceremonies, as was done by the Canaanite peoples. He asks one man, Abraham, to give up his beloved son. as Abraham is about to obey God, out of love and obedience, God stops the sacrifice- and provides a ram instead of the son. as to why and how God would ask this of Abraham, the Book of Hebrews says this :
By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death. (11:17-19)
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
Though I don't hold this view, one response I've heard is that because god created humans, our lives are god's to take or not. The fact that we die at all is due to god's design, so in that sense, god takes all life anyway. Genocide or other murder by humans is wrong because those are not our lives to take.
frg001
Complex bunch of atoms
1st, the death penalty seems harsh for most sins.
2nd He apparently destroyed the innevitable innocent among them too, or is these just collateral damage?
3rd. When humans inevitably create clones, would you regard it as ok to then take their lives?
ayani
member
frog ~
God's point was that *no one* within the cultural context of those peoples was innocent. our understanding is that children, of course, would have been present in those populations, and why should children die for adult's sins? but God calls the Hebrews to destroy everyone- and promises to build up their nation as great. He warns them that if they fail to, the cultural practices of those people would corrupt them, and lead them from what the God who freed them from captivity in Egypt had commanded them on Sinai. He doesn't tell the Hebrews to adopt innocent Canaanite children and raise them as their own- He commands them to destroy the nation.
God punishes the Hebrews, as well, for their sins. yes, death is final, and irrevocable. but Biblically, is it unreasonable to the point that God would not mete it out? no. He is the Master of the Universe, and the King over all nations- His will and plan and insight are final, not ours.
the point God makes is that it's not as though the Hebrews are getting their own revenge / anger out on the peoples God sends them to over-take. He uses the Hebrews to do this.
i am a Christian. Christ has commanded us not to kill, to not resist the evil, and to not live by the sword. but does that mean that God can not or will not use people / nature/ circumstance to discipline those who sin? God is still sovereign. vengeance is His. while the Christian in Christ, the Son, is asked not to kill (clones included), it's clear that God can and does. Christ Himself prophesies the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. note that He does not command His followers to destroy Jerusalem or kill Romans. He lets them know that Jerusalem will fall due to its rejection of Him, and that after the fact, God is still in control.
God's point was that *no one* within the cultural context of those peoples was innocent. our understanding is that children, of course, would have been present in those populations, and why should children die for adult's sins? but God calls the Hebrews to destroy everyone- and promises to build up their nation as great. He warns them that if they fail to, the cultural practices of those people would corrupt them, and lead them from what the God who freed them from captivity in Egypt had commanded them on Sinai. He doesn't tell the Hebrews to adopt innocent Canaanite children and raise them as their own- He commands them to destroy the nation.
God punishes the Hebrews, as well, for their sins. yes, death is final, and irrevocable. but Biblically, is it unreasonable to the point that God would not mete it out? no. He is the Master of the Universe, and the King over all nations- His will and plan and insight are final, not ours.
the point God makes is that it's not as though the Hebrews are getting their own revenge / anger out on the peoples God sends them to over-take. He uses the Hebrews to do this.
i am a Christian. Christ has commanded us not to kill, to not resist the evil, and to not live by the sword. but does that mean that God can not or will not use people / nature/ circumstance to discipline those who sin? God is still sovereign. vengeance is His. while the Christian in Christ, the Son, is asked not to kill (clones included), it's clear that God can and does. Christ Himself prophesies the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. note that He does not command His followers to destroy Jerusalem or kill Romans. He lets them know that Jerusalem will fall due to its rejection of Him, and that after the fact, God is still in control.
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
He may have given one son that cannot die but look at the millions he has taken from man.
Genocide, even by God, is a sin against humanity.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
If God takes back His gifts then He is not much of a God. Man could never trust Him. A killer for sure, a liar as well? Here is a gift. Fooled you, I take it back. Now repeat millions of times.
Should a law maker follow his own rules?
Regards
DL
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
Yep, God is in control all right.
http://photosthatchangedtheworld.com/starving-child-vulture/
Regards
DL
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Most people don't want to think in these terms, but here you are. Who is more powerful? Us or God (as depicted in scripture and as imagined by common sense)? Who is more knowledgeable? Us or God? Who's accountable to whom? God to us or us to God? The answers to these questions are all obvious, so it begs the question on what basis we can complain about God's commands (assuming for the sake of argument that the biblical God is the true God and has issued the commands about the Amalekits and the Canaanites as represented in scripture).
God is not accountable to us; we don't have the right to question him (although we may wish to arrogate to ourselves that right). In the end, he will judge us, and that judgment will be effective and carried out. Our judgments of him will echo forever in a silent void, meaning and doing nothing. If there are some among us who wish to mouth off in the vain hope of getting one last dig in before the Effective Judgment, I suppose they are welcome to it, for what it's worth -- not much, even less than nothing.
God knows more about the situation than we ever will. God knows what would have happened had those innocent children grown up in a wicked culture such as the Canaanites had. Perhaps it would have been inevitable that they would grow up to be thorough pond scum. Perhaps God could have contrived to destroy only the adults, but what would that have entailed for the children? Perhaps that would have been so damaging as to create as much evil as the evil Canaanite culture but of a different sort. What would that have solved? But the point is that, whether we can conceive of a good reason for God's command or not, it makes good sense to presume that he did, based solely on the fact that, as Creator, he knows all there is to know about his creation.
God is powerful. Thus we don't have to worry about the fate of the children. Yes, they died early, but in the eschatological story told in scripture, this present earth is not the end of things. There is hope for the future, even for the dead. And perhaps God has rewards and compensations in store for those children who died early or perhaps even in innocence. There is a world to come in which wrongs -- real and apparent -- shall be understood, ended and resolved.
God loves the righteous. As Abraham said before God destroyed Sodom: "Will you destroy the righteous along with the wicked? Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?" The answer to these rhetorical questions are obviously No and Yes, respectively. These answers must be presupposed, even with these commands to kill the Amalekites and the Canaanites. God does not destroy the righteous along with the wicked. He will always do what is right. It's another question whether we see the situation completely enough to judge (the answer to which is almost always No).
What's more, God loves all. Destroying the Canaanite culture would have been a mercy, even to the Canaanites. Scripture picks out child sacrifice as a specific motive for God's action, but it would seem that they must have been pretty bad to motivate an action that has its parallel only in the Great Deluge. Living in such a society must have been a terror. And so wiping it out was an act of mercy to generations of future people who would come to live in that area, and spared the present people from having to continue under its yoke.
Anyway, my main point is that our lack of authority, knowledge, and ability to effect real change all stand in the way of our criticizing God about this, although sadness, regret, and even revulsion are all legitimate responses.
God is not accountable to us; we don't have the right to question him (although we may wish to arrogate to ourselves that right). In the end, he will judge us, and that judgment will be effective and carried out. Our judgments of him will echo forever in a silent void, meaning and doing nothing. If there are some among us who wish to mouth off in the vain hope of getting one last dig in before the Effective Judgment, I suppose they are welcome to it, for what it's worth -- not much, even less than nothing.
God knows more about the situation than we ever will. God knows what would have happened had those innocent children grown up in a wicked culture such as the Canaanites had. Perhaps it would have been inevitable that they would grow up to be thorough pond scum. Perhaps God could have contrived to destroy only the adults, but what would that have entailed for the children? Perhaps that would have been so damaging as to create as much evil as the evil Canaanite culture but of a different sort. What would that have solved? But the point is that, whether we can conceive of a good reason for God's command or not, it makes good sense to presume that he did, based solely on the fact that, as Creator, he knows all there is to know about his creation.
God is powerful. Thus we don't have to worry about the fate of the children. Yes, they died early, but in the eschatological story told in scripture, this present earth is not the end of things. There is hope for the future, even for the dead. And perhaps God has rewards and compensations in store for those children who died early or perhaps even in innocence. There is a world to come in which wrongs -- real and apparent -- shall be understood, ended and resolved.
God loves the righteous. As Abraham said before God destroyed Sodom: "Will you destroy the righteous along with the wicked? Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?" The answer to these rhetorical questions are obviously No and Yes, respectively. These answers must be presupposed, even with these commands to kill the Amalekites and the Canaanites. God does not destroy the righteous along with the wicked. He will always do what is right. It's another question whether we see the situation completely enough to judge (the answer to which is almost always No).
What's more, God loves all. Destroying the Canaanite culture would have been a mercy, even to the Canaanites. Scripture picks out child sacrifice as a specific motive for God's action, but it would seem that they must have been pretty bad to motivate an action that has its parallel only in the Great Deluge. Living in such a society must have been a terror. And so wiping it out was an act of mercy to generations of future people who would come to live in that area, and spared the present people from having to continue under its yoke.
Anyway, my main point is that our lack of authority, knowledge, and ability to effect real change all stand in the way of our criticizing God about this, although sadness, regret, and even revulsion are all legitimate responses.
ayani
member
G, people die. that's how it is. yes, He gives and He takes away. the Christian will bless and praise His name, even when things are lousy. that "God gives and takes away- blessed be His name" comes from the Book of Job, in the midst of great suffering that was incomprehensible to the man uttering the prayer. still, Job's love for God surpassed his self-love.
God has given His Son, that is true. but His simply giving His Son does nothing for the man or woman who has not accepted that gift. in light of Biblical understanding, it's kind of like saying "it's like a hundred degrees and they're giving out ice cream over there- what kind of a God would let me broil in the hot sun!" well, take the ice cream.
no, it's not. sin, by definition, is that within humanity that rebels against God's will / commandments. God can not rebel against Himself. whatever God wills, is good, though from a human perspective it can be difficult to understand.
now, for a human to murder his neighbors, that is wrong. look at what Paul writes to the Christians of Rome :
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. (Romans 12:19-21)
Christ has commanded us to repay evil with good- revenge belongs to the Father, the Creator and sustainer of all men. God can not sin- what is righteous for God, may not be the right thing for men to do on their own. look at 1 Samuel, 25:4-42 David is going to strike down his enemy, and the man's wife stops him. God ends the man's life instead. it was right for the man's life to end, but David was not the person to do it. repayment for evil is the Lord's task- the Christian's duty is to faithfully follow the Son, and trust in God for all things.
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
Yes, God is revolting sometimes. The Bible God that is. Especially when killing men.
Follow Jesus till He decides to kill you as well.
Regards
DL
Heneni
Miss Independent
If greatest I am ever got the opportunity to genocide god, im sure 'it' would.
Your just looking for someone to 'entertain' you.
Do you realise that the same way you judge god, is the same way he will treat you?
It you judge him to be a murderer, then you can not possibly justify your hatred towards him, because hatred is usually the root of murder.
Your just looking for someone to 'entertain' you.
Do you realise that the same way you judge god, is the same way he will treat you?
It you judge him to be a murderer, then you can not possibly justify your hatred towards him, because hatred is usually the root of murder.
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
Then God/Jesus was well rooted in hated when He murdered millions.
Strange how Jesus would not stone one sinner and yet would drown so many.
And yes, I plan on being judged by the standards that I set.
I know God. I have no fear of His judgment.
Regards
DL
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
DL,
If God were truly a genocidal maniac, we should see genocide featuring as an ethical norm in scripture. But we don't. Now why, pray tell, is that?
If God were truly a genocidal maniac, we should see genocide featuring as an ethical norm in scripture. But we don't. Now why, pray tell, is that?
ayani
member
G,
nothing that God does betrays humanity. from your perspective or from mine, God's reasons for punishing a people may be ellusive. but here is what is true Biblically- when the sins of a people overflow, righteous judgent belongs to God. He is our maker and the uiltimate judge of the nations, and His judgment is sound and good, by virtue of His nature.
Hitler acted on hatred, and megalomania. he was an earthly ruler with his own agenda, murderous prejudices, and power-thirst. Hitler was not God, and those who claim to carry out God's will by killing others are forgetting what God has finally demonstrted and taught through his Son. there is such a thing as evil, and such a thing as demonic hatred. often, people in power with axes to grind fall prey to these two snares, and the results, when directed at a particular people, are often genocide. look at what is happening in Darfur.
people forget that if God wishes to deal with a people, He can do so in His own ways. it is the (abbreviated) duty of a Christian to, in disciplined imitation of Christ, love God with all one's heart and soul and might, and love one's neighbor as one's self. it is not the duty of a Christian to try and mete out their understanding of divine justice through violence.
Heneni
Miss Independent
:cheer:
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
We do.
Read the old testament if you want many other examples of God killing men.
Sodom is a good place to start.
What was the flood if not genocide.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
Divine justice does not blend well with genocide.
If you think that genocide is justice then you are wrong. That is why we have laws against it.
Regards
DL
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
We also have laws against hate-filled, ignorant bile.
A