questfortruth
Well-Known Member
Would you like a forbidden verse of Saint Apostle Paul in New Testament about men sleeping with men?
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God loves gays and lesbians
- Thread starter Starlight
- Start date
Which one? None of his verses are "forbidden", imo. I actually love St. Paul a lot and he gets so much crap on here. But it's important to keep him in context.
And it's not as if I don't know all the verses seeming to pertain to homosexuality. I've studied this subject on my own for many years. I've considered the verses, the various interpretations and their merit as well as Christian history and my current estimation of how important all of this is:
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questfortruth
Well-Known Member
In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Romans 1:27
stvdv
Veteran Member
You do know "the Greatest Commandment, right"?
Greatest implies that it trumps non greatest Commandments (all other verses).
Hence cherry picking does not apply in this case.
(@Starlight talks about Greatest Commandment)
Do you still disagree?
That's still not talking about loving, committed relationships. He was talking to ancient Romans, after all, with their debauchery and promiscuousness - not to mention the pederasty!
Even they thought the idea of gay marriage was laughable and scandalous. Cultures like Afghanistan share many features of how Greco-Roman society viewed sexuality, unfortunately -
I don't think Christianity has fully dealt with the fact that gay relationships can be truly loving and not some perverted lunacy, or based on domination. I think this is a cultural problem, fundamentally.
stvdv
Veteran Member
I like your opinion. I always say "I can't believe that God is judgmental"
I do not know myself if true or not
But
My Master said "God does not judge"
This makes sense to me, as well as your opinion
stvdv
Veteran Member
Words are tricky, phrasing it like this, gives the impression that God has an opinion...not caring "who you love". I do not know whether God cares or not. I do know that Avatars come to earth to help humans getting out of their mess; so that sounds a bit like "caring" to me. Also, evolution seems to improve the way humans behave, so again I can see some "caring in that"
It always gets tricky when we try to describe in words what God is, does, feels (or not), thinks (or not), judges (or not)
So, imo, @Starlight does the same many try to do...figure out "what is God"
I like (her?) first step out of the judgmental God, as many get from the Bible. Very useful, imo, because judgmental God does not get me anywhere positive, and makes no sense at all, as it leads to too many contradictions in the Bible. Not attributing judging to God gives me a much better picture of the Bible, less inconsistancies
stvdv
Veteran Member
Hindu Scriptures use the terms:
"Consciousness"
"unconditional Love" (not to be confused with human conditional love)
"Love is God" (Love capitalized = unconditional Love)
Masters (those who really know about this), when talking to us humans, many times come down to our level to try to get us to understand the higher truths. Sometimes, when speaking to another audience, they will not need to come down to the previous level, because these people understand the other levels already
Make sense to me, that this happened at the time of Jesus also. That's why verses seemingly contradict.
Therefore it's many times incorrect to say "The Bible says this or that, hence this or that is the truth"
stvdv
Veteran Member
I can see that
Personally I rather see someone doing their best to stop interpreting negatively, and focus on Divine Love, and God being Loving. That's a much needed step, imo, to get out of the negativity (barbarianism we still see around us today). Maybe not 100% true or accurate, but it has more potential
So, I see it as a positive attempt, and it's fine with me if Christians and Atheist see it as ridiculous
stvdv
Veteran Member
God is said to be beyond anything, so to even try to put in words anything related to God is "simply committing a fallacy"
It's wiser not to define (restrict) God in anyway
But then again, words are used to understand that which is beyond words. Seems to contradict, but it's about our capacity to "read between lines", to get our "eureka's", not because someone tells us exactly how and what, but when our intuition kicks in, and we suddenly realize it
stvdv
Veteran Member
"The Eternal Witness" is how some Wise have described God...so, indeed no opinion nor being judgmental...just witnessing
stvdv
Veteran Member
Maybe she has an authority
God is so much more than I can comprehend, therefore I have no clue how or what God is exactly...so, for me it is just guessing. I do have first hand information from a poorna Avatar I met, but this for me is still "hearsay", so borrowed knowledge from Him, not my own realization
Anyway
The positive approach of the gay issue, taking out "sin" and "a judgmental God" is a big step "forward" (imo), compared to the negative approach I usually see; a welcome breath of fresh air
AdamjEdgar
Active Member
I think when we read in the genesis account that "a man and a women shall be one" and lots of other references illustrating that sexual immorality includes unnatural relations with other men, then the apostle Paul condemns gay relationships in Romans 1: 26&27...I doubt very much that any person can genuinely look at the context of all of the passages that talk about abominable relationships and conclude quite well that gay marriage is not acceptable. It doesn't make any difference if its a loving relationship or not...that is nothing more than a copout! The reality is, homsexuality even in marriage is a sin period.
Does this mean homo's won't go to heaven? Well, is there any chance a murderer or a theif could be in heaven? The apostle Paul was formerly a murderer and he will most likely be there! There is a caveat though, Paul does specifically say that he was forgiven in his ignorance. I very much doubt that will be the case for all Christian homosexuals!
At the end of the day, I believe that we are all guilty and fall short of the glory of God. The cloak of Jesus righteousness is for all sinners who confess their sins and follow Jesus.
Does this mean homo's won't go to heaven? Well, is there any chance a murderer or a theif could be in heaven? The apostle Paul was formerly a murderer and he will most likely be there! There is a caveat though, Paul does specifically say that he was forgiven in his ignorance. I very much doubt that will be the case for all Christian homosexuals!
At the end of the day, I believe that we are all guilty and fall short of the glory of God. The cloak of Jesus righteousness is for all sinners who confess their sins and follow Jesus.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
You can find them in the library on the same shelve as the book "How to NOT collect stamps".
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
People are free to follow any bad philosophies as they please (as long as they stay within the confines of the law of course).
Religions are not the only bad ideas out there.
And yes, atheists aren't immune to stupidity and irrationality.
Just because they manage to have a rational view on religion on religious history, doesn't mean they are incapable of having irrational views of other things.
Take soviets for example who tried to make theism illegal.
Theists like point at them as being an example an "atheist state".
Nonsense of course. Soviets followed the very bad idea / ideology of hardcore communism, which is like a state religion.
Yes, as an atheist I consider theism to be a bad idea to follow.
But that in no way implies that I don't think there aren't any other stupid things one could follow besides theism.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
What's wrong with option 3?
ESPECIALLY since you admit yourself that you can't find provide a reasonable argument for option 2 and yet still pick it anyway.
Also.... there's not much you can misunderstand there... How many ways can you interprete a statement saying that those who engage in gay sex should be killed?
It's pretty straightforward.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
It's the very definition of cherry picking.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Yes, you do.
You're just trying to weasle out of it by branding everything you don't agree with as "not from god".
Think carefully how you answer this.
How do you know that? How have you concluded that god is both love and justice?
leroy
Well-Known Member
What do you mean by “wrong” I am admitting my ignorance on this topic, all I am doing is posting the alternatives without claiming that one is better than the other.
You can simply assume that the bible is wrong just because you don’t like it, if you what to affirm option 3 then you have to take your burden proof , elaborate an argument and defend it.
Which is unlikely because atheist in this forum usually don’t support their claims
It´s obvious that in the context of the text it’s using a literally tool , the author is using exaggerated language, this is obvious from the fact that people form that time didn’t really condemn gay people to death. (Which means that they didn’t interpreted the text in the same literal way that you do)