God may punish but eternity in hell?

[JustAsking]

Jesus never gives up trying to reach us.

"...Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me..."

--Revelation 3:20

He's just all powerful, all compassionate and all loving.. Yet he can't reach certain people and lets them rot for eternity.

Gotcha!

 

[strikeviperMKII]

He's just all powerful, all compassionate and all loving.. Yet he can't reach certain people and lets them rot for eternity.

Gotcha!

Oh he can reach them, alright. He's always reaching for them. They don't see it, not because they can't, but because it's not in a way they expect. That's the whole point.

 

[Midnight Pete]

He's just all powerful, all compassionate and all loving.. Yet he can't reach certain people and lets them rot for eternity.

Gotcha!

He can't reach those who won't open the door when he knocks.

 

[ButTheCatCameBack]

He's just all powerful, all compassionate and all loving.. Yet he can't reach certain people and lets them rot for eternity.

Gotcha!

I don't think they'll admit it. But what's really being said is no..he's neither all powerful or all compassionate/loving.

 

[BruceDLimber]

You shouldn't necessarily believe everything you hear, Jimmy!

The scriptures of the Baha'i Faith make clear that hell is NOT an eternal state--indeed, quite the opposite! I quote:

"When they [men] are delivered through the light of faith from the darkness of these vices, and become illuminated with the radiance of the sun of reality, and ennobled with all the virtues, they esteem this the greatest reward, and they know it to be the true paradise. In the same way they consider that the spiritual punishment ... is to be subjected to the world of nature, to be veiled from God, to be brutal and ignorant, to fall into carnal lusts, to be absorbed in animal frailties, to be characterized with dark qualities ... these are the greatest punishments and tortures....

"...The rewards of the other world are the perfections and the peace obtained in the spiritual worlds after leaving this world ... the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity. In the same way the punishments of the other world ... consist in being deprived of the special divine blessings and the absolute bounties, and falling into the lowest degrees of existence. He who is deprived of these divine favours, although he continues after death, is considered as dead by the people of truth.

"The wealth of the other world is nearness to God. Consequently it is certain that those who are near the Divine Court are allowed to intercede, and this intercession is approved by God....

"It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and unbelief may become changed; that is to say, they may become the object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice; for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved. As we have the power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall possess the same power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of God.... Therefore in that world also they can make progress. As here they can receive light by their supplications, there also they can plead for forgiveness, and receive light through entreaties and supplications.

"Both before and after putting off this material form, there is progress in perfection, but not in state.... There is no other being higher than a perfect man. But man when he has reached this state can still make progress in perfections but not in state, because there is no state higher than that of a perfect man to which he can transfer himself. He only progresses in the state of humanity, for the human perfections are infinite. Thus however learned a man may be, we can imagine one more learned.

"Hence, as the perfections of humanity are endless, man can also make progress in perfections after leaving this world."
―Some Answered Questions, pp. 260-274 passim.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Oh he can reach them, alright. He's always reaching for them. They don't see it, not because they can't, but because it's not in a way they expect. That's the whole point.

The point is that, there are 2 type of realities.

One type of reality is physical reality. Things which we can sense them by our 5 senses, seeing, hearing, smelling...are physical.

Then there is spiritual reality. For example Love, patience, Forgiveness, generality, kindness, etc. are not Physical realities. We cannot sense them by our 5 senses. Neither they have a place. for example, We cannot confine these spiritual realities in a space.

The teachings of the prophets, has been mostly spirituality. The writings of the Bible are mostly describing spiritual realities, not physical.

For example, Jesus said: “Let the dead bury their dead.” Luke 9:60.

Clearly, Jesus saw the spiritual reality of those souls, and called them "Dead".

Or

For example, the Old testimony said that Elijah would return. Malachi 4:1-5
But Jesus said that John the Baptist was the return of Elijah. Matthew 17:10-13

That's because the Old Testimony was describing a spiritual reality. Elijah was not returned physically. But a person with the same Spiritual Reality was returned. A person, who was as kind, caring, patience, etc. was returned. That was a Spiritual reality described.

So, we shouldn't take everything in Bible as Physical Realities. The Hell and Heaven are not Physical realities. They are Spiritual realities described in a metaphoric language. There is no Physical Fire that burns people there.

I believe that's just a misinterpretation and misunderstanding of teachings of the Bible.

So, people of this age are a lot more intelligent and scientific. When they see strange things in religions which makes no sense, they are not willing to accept them. But unfortunately that's because of the misinterpretations which happened long before and is carried through generations to this age. Which make religions non-sense to a lot of people!

 

[strikeviperMKII]

So, we shouldn't take everything in Bible as Physical Realities. The Hell and Heaven are not Physical realities. They are Spiritual realities described in a metaphoric language. There is no Physical Fire that burns people there.

I agree with that. It's what I meant by 'not in the way they expect'. Reaching spiritually, and reaching physically are two different things.

 

[ButTheCatCameBack]

For example Love, patience, Forgiveness, generality, kindness, etc.

None of the above are spiritual unless spiritual is simply being used a metaphorical term for an interaction of biology and society. Both of which are based in the physical.

 

[Diederick]

A software engineer may throw away a system he created because it malfunctions, or because it is obsolete, unnecessary or too imperfect. But technological constructions don't have feelings. They do not suffer anything. Animals can suffer, an important distinction. Parents can't hurt their children, because children are individual human beings who have rights too and deserve protection.

There are two other reasons I have a problem with (eternal) suffering. One is that I can't see how God would require his creations to suffer because of their errors, with or without free will. There doesn't seem to be a point to it and it very much looks like the Bible authors were just trying to scare people into the religion. God just as well might simple cease the existence of 'failed humans', or reincarnate them to retry, and try again.

The second one is that eternal suffering is disproportional by definition. Which I don't think I need to explain because "eternal suffering" says it all - nothing we could have done on earth would justify such torment.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

None of the above are spiritual unless spiritual is simply being used a metaphorical term for an interaction of biology and society. Both of which are based in the physical.

Not really, there is no hormone, or substance in the body that would make someone patience or kind! These are the spiritual nature of human, not the physical nature, which biology cannot understand.
For example we cannot, build a robot that would be kind and forgiving. We can create a robot which would act that way or in certain ways, but that's just acting, not a reality.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There are two other reasons I have a problem with (eternal) suffering. One is that I can't see how God would require his creations to suffer because of their errors, with or without free will. There doesn't seem to be a point to it and it very much looks like the Bible authors were just trying to scare people into the religion. God just as well might simple cease the existence of 'failed humans', or reincarnate them to retry, and try again.

The second one is that eternal suffering is disproportional by definition. Which I don't think I need to explain because "eternal suffering" says it all - nothing we could have done on earth would justify such torment.

The purpose of God for sending His Manifestations and Prophets has been to guide and teach spirituality to humankind. For example detachment from worldly desires, and removing from envy and jealousy.
So, by describing Hell as a Fire, He warns His creatures of the effect of doing wrong things on their Spirit. That is by doing the inhuman things, the spirit would suffer later from lacking of developing the spiritual qualities.

 

[Diederick]

Yes, but the argument isn't whether or why He warns the humans on earth about hell, it is why he would want people to suffer it to begin with. Because I can't see how God would be helped by it and, if hell = eternal suffering, how He could possibly justify it. It all seems very much like a big screw-up on the part of the Bible writers which people are desperately trying to cover up and explain away.

 

[ButTheCatCameBack]

Not really, there is no hormone, or substance in the body that would make someone patience or kind! These are the spiritual nature of human, not the physical nature, which biology cannot understand.
For example we cannot, build a robot that would be kind and forgiving. We can create a robot which would act that way or in certain ways, but that's just acting, not a reality.

That's nice, except. I never argued that such is the case. So you're arguing a straw man. Love is biochemical in origin and exists within the context of how this biochemistry plays out within human society. We know that some other animals also express emotions and how love plays out socially in their society is it's own thing. Patience, forgiveness,etc all describe modes of social interaction. Social interaction is not supernatural and spiritually in almost all uses of the terminology invokes the supernatural.

It can be used in a non supernatural way but it's upon the user to explain the use of the word. Something that applies to many words and is a function of language.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Love is biochemical in origin and exists within the context of how this biochemistry plays out within human society
.

If you are talking about the hormones that would attract opposite sex to each other. That's not the love i am talking about. Yes, those feelings are biological and intrinsic. Animals share them too, because those are physical attraction. But if you mean, that there is a chemical that would make people more loving toward each other, and make them kind and caring, then absolutely not.
Yes, there it’s known that certain biochemical in brain causes feeling of depression if it’s imbalanced, but that doesn’t deny that there is a connection between spirit and body. That is the happiness and sadness of the spirit affects us.
Also, it is clear and evident, that, these realities are not physical.
the mind is connected with brain, Love is said to be connected with heart, and the spirit has a connection with body. So, off course the spirit has physical effect on the body. There are even psychological studies and evidence, which, indicate human is more than something physical.

 

[ButTheCatCameBack]

If you are talking about the hormones that would attract opposite sex to each other. That's not the love i am talking about.

You're the only person mentioning this. Again strawman.

Yes, those feelings are biological and intrinsic. Animals share them too, because those are physical attraction.

SOME OTHER animals do.(humans are animals). Not all do. And I didn't say physical attraction.

But if you mean, that there is a chemical that would make people more loving toward each other, and make them kind and caring, then absolutely not.

More strawman. What you are describing is social interaction.

Yes, there it’s known that certain biochemical in brain causes feeling of depression if it’s imbalanced, but that doesn’t deny that there is a connection between spirit and body

Never mentioned depression. I also do not believe in "spirits".

Also, it is clear and evident, that, these realities are not physical.

I'm more inclined to believe you're just not using the word physical well.

the mind is connected with brain, Love is said to be connected with heart, and the spirit has a connection with body. So, off course the spirit has physical effect on the body. There are even psychological studies and evidence, which, indicate human is more than something physical.

Cite peer reviewed studies.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You're the only person mentioning this. Again strawman.

Not really, there are many people who distinguish between a physical attraction between opposite sex, and true love.

That's why, a married couple cannot stay together for too long, if they got married mainly because of physical attractions. So, there must be another component in their life, which is the spiritual qualities, to make it a stable marriage.

More strawman. What you are describing is social interaction.
.

We can learn certain skills, by which we can have good social and interaction skills.
But what I am saying is something different.
First consider a person who has learned how to act nicely, and interact properly in the society, but internally does not care about people. He just acts that way, because he knows, it works better with people.
Second consider another person who truly cares about others, not just for the purpose of his own success within society. But through his spiritual character and human feelings. This is the spiritual quality. This is what comes from the teachings of the prophets.

You see the difference?

 

[JustAsking]

We can learn certain skills, by which we can have good social and interaction skills.
But what I am saying is something different.
First consider a person who has learned how to act nicely, and interact properly in the society, but internally does not care about people. He just acts that way, because he knows, it works better with people.
Second consider another person who truly cares about others, not just for the purpose of his own success within society. But through his spiritual character and human feelings. This is the spiritual quality. This is what comes from the teachings of the prophets.

You see the difference?

Are you saying you need prophets to teach you how to truly care about other people? Empathy, Sympathy, Compassion, etc, isn't something you have, it's something religion teaches you?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes, but the argument isn't whether or why He warns the humans on earth about hell, it is why he would want people to suffer it to begin with. Because I can't see how God would be helped by it and, if hell = eternal suffering, how He could possibly justify it. It all seems very much like a big screw-up on the part of the Bible writers which people are desperately trying to cover up and explain away.

See, this is how it goes.

God created human, and because He loves his creation, he sends us guidance.
Just like, if you plant some flowers, then you would take care of it, and water them.

In the same way, God rains upon us his bounty, by the clouds of heaven of knowledge. This knowledge, is the spiritual knowledge and he gives it to us through His Manifestations, which are the prophets.

Then He warns us that if we don't follow the teachings then our soul will not live on.
Just as the physical body needs food, so does the spirit. The food for spirit is given to us through the teachings of the prophets.
If we don't follow their guidance then our spirit would not grow and progress (Which is described as Fire Hell to warn us)
Cause, life after death is the life of spirit.
So, the choice is with us. God does not make us to go to Hell.

 

[Faithfreedom]

The bible says the wages of sin is death.
Once we are dead, our sins are fully paid for.
To be in an eternal fiery hell, is to have overpaid the going price.

The bible when studied as a whole, does not support the doctrine of an eternal fiery hell where lost souls are tortured.

:shout THE FIRES OF HELL HAVE BEEN EXTINGUISHED!

 

[Smoke]

So you think that God cannot destroy what she creates?

Torturing forever is not the same as destroying.