God simply doesn't care

[Skwim]

Before Jesus came onto the scene people were dying left and right without being saved from the wages of their sins. Then when god finally decided to set his plan of salvation into motion it was like molasses running downhill in winter. Only a smattering of those in the mid-east and those in Rome eventually heard about salvation through Jesus (Christianity didn't become the accepted religion in Rome until 300 CE). Slowly, over hundreds of years, people of other lands were introduced to the "message," some not hearing about salvation through Christ until the twentieth century. In the meantime the omnipotent god of Abraham turned a blind eye to the millions upon millions of people who had died and were dying without benefit of the death of his son.

So what could have been going on in gods mind? What kind of mind lays misery on an entire species of creatures and then provides a cure that is so confined and works so slowly it only affects a pitiful percentage of them? Were these clueless people somehow undeserving of salvation? Was this some kind of experiment of god's, using the unaware as a control group?

Considering that salvation is such a big deal, to me a decent being would never withhold such a gift. I know of people, myself included, who would never be so merciless. So, I can only conclude that when it comes to the truth of the matter, god simply doesn't care. He eventually threw a bone to his creation and doesn't care who sees it or not.

Of course, if I've missed an important element here, I'm all ears.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Before Jesus came onto the scene people were dying left and right without being saved from the wages of their sins. Then when god finally decided to set his plan of salvation into motion it was like molasses running downhill in winter.

haha.

Only a smattering of those in the mid-east and those in Rome eventually heard about salvation through Jesus (Christianity didn't become the accepted religion in Rome until 300 CE). Slowly, over hundreds of years, people of other lands were introduced to the "message," some not hearing about salvation through Christ until the twentieth century. In the meantime the omnipotent god of Abraham turned a blind eye to the millions upon millions of people who had died and were dying without benefit of the death of his son.

God is a reflection of his own Self, or, if you like, a god of a God. So he is not quite what you might think.

So what could have been going on in gods mind? What kind of mind lays misery on an entire species of creatures and then provides a cure that is so confined and works so slowly it only affects a pitiful percentage of them?

We do, not him.
As for the misery, do we not do the same? If there is such misery in life, why do we have offspring? Don't we do the same thing... lay misery on our offspring?

Were these clueless people somehow undeserving of salvation? Was this some kind of experiment of god's, using the unaware as a control group?

Considering that salvation is such a big deal, to me a decent being would never withhold such a gift. I know of people, myself included, who would never be so merciless. So, I can only conclude that when it comes to the truth of the matter, god simply doesn't care. He eventually threw a bone to his creation and doesn't care who sees it or not.

Of course, if I've missed an important element here, I'm all ears.

Everything is evolving consciousness expressed in physical terms. What is seen here has already been within conceptual ideas.
Just as it takes time for you to learn from a babe to an adult, so it takes time for the divine consciousness (logos) to evolve, and even longer in a physical realm.
As for not all seeing it, not all want to see it. That is what being free is all about.
The universe is evolving and developing from the consciousness of its own Self. God is the culmination of that idea, the highest part.
What we see here is what we are.

 

[Robert.Evans]

If we take it from a basic traditional idea of God and mankind, we would see God make us as some sort of pet project that went wrong, and that he decieded to destroy most of, even though he made it. So clearly there is more to it than that. As it is, the consciousness (logos) is us, God is the one that allows us to express this in this realm, by freeing us from that which bound us. But don't forget, there are different aspects or reflections of what we think of as God. God is one, but it is fractal and holographic in action, myriad and infinite. Good eh.

 

[Ultimatum]

. But don't forget, there are different aspects or reflections of what we think of as God. God is one, but it is fractal and holographic in action, myriad and infinite. Good eh.

I stopped taking you seriously after reading that.

 

[Thana]

You do realize the OT is all about the people who lived before Jesus, And how they obtained God's Grace and essentially salvation.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I stopped taking you seriously after reading that.

That's your problem not mine

 

[Thief]

Of course, if I've missed an important element here, I'm all ears.

I have a similar thread ...somewhere....
and that missing portion may not be as far out of sight as you say....

Picture yourself as the First....yes you can.
With awareness in play you realize you are alone.
You can express your will and the creation responds....but it does not really 'respond'.

You could split yourself and be in two places at once...
but that would be talking to yourself....your reflection....and your echo.

Substance is the only other item at hand.
Placing spirit in to flesh has a drawback.....it's smaller.
Now the trick is to work with it until the intended level of spirit can stand up....when the chemistry fails.

Does He care when so many of the copies fail?
Does heaven accept all that nod their heads?....saying Lord!....Lord!

Probably not.

 

[Paradox22]

Skwim, I agree with much of what you say . A related issue is that the God of Abraham is really hung up on what you believe, rather than just what you do. If you do not believe in god, you're damned, regardless of whether you have ever even heard of 'God'. If you have doubts, you are also screwed. We usually think that it is OK if you think 'bad' thoughts, as long as you don't engage in morally blameworthy(sinful) conduct. In America, for example, justice is only concerned with conduct. In fact, even 'bad' actions can be excused if the person was ignorant or acting with good intent. Christianity demands that we have no reservations about a deity that has a very odd sense of basic fairness.
My motto used to be "if God exists, He'll understand." By that I meant that any benevolent or merciful God will excuse me for being skeptical about its existence, provided that I generally act in such a way that is consistent with core principles. It has become clear that this cannot be said of the God described in the Bible, so if there really is a benevolent and merciful God, the Bible cannot be accurate. As you say. Thus, whether or not the Christian God cares, such a deity does not seem to be benevolent, merciful or just.
I know. I know. I'm just a mortal so who am I to judge God. Answer: A thoughtful person.

 

[allfoak]

Perhaps it is not God that doesn't care but rather it is us who do not care enough to search out the truth.
From an historical perspective none of it makes sense.
God is not bound by time and history so why is it that we act as if God is bound by these things?

The literal/historical view of the scripture is a dead end.
Salvation is not an historical event.

 

[natpath]

How can the mind of man know the mind of God, if God even has a mind such as we understand the brain.? Maybe God gave us intelligence but put a stumbling block in there so we would have to find him another way.

 

[George-ananda]

The straw God gets pummeled again....

 

[Skwim]

You do realize the OT is all about the people who lived before Jesus, And how they obtained God's Grace and essentially salvation.

Really? Please show your work: your source indicating everyone in the world was saved before Jesus came on the scene.

I know. I know. I'm just a mortal so who am I to judge God. Answer: A thoughtful person.

Which brings up another issue some Christians balk at. They are fine with imputing all kinds of characteristics to god, but bridle when anyone questions or judges god based on these attributes. I say, if you're going to claim god is such-and-such then be prepared to explain all the problems that arise out of such a claim. And no fair claiming one can't know the mind of god after ascribing so many unsupported facets of his being to him. Ya can't have it both ways.

Perhaps it is not God that doesn't care but rather it is us who do not care enough to search out the truth.

Have you ever searched for something you were unaware of?

From an historical perspective none of it makes sense.

Sure it does: god simply doesn't care.

God is not bound by time and history so why is it that we act as if God is bound by these things?

What things, a moral character? Obviously not.

How can the mind of man know the mind of God, if God even has a mind such as we understand the brain.?

Man probably can't---my question was rhetorical. But even without knowing how his mind works, his actions as I've laid them out imply a very strange morality, one that many would claim is truly immoral.

Maybe God gave us intelligence but put a stumbling block in there so we would have to find him another way.

I fail to see the relevance here.

 

[Thana]

Really? Please show your work: your source indicating everyone in the world was saved before Jesus came on the scene.

Please show your source that they weren't

And I didn't say everyone, Not everyone has Salvation now, So why would you expect them all to have it then?

Your post has been answered, There was Salvation before Christ and God did care before Christ, The OT is testament to that.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Before Jesus came onto the scene people were dying left and right without being saved from the wages of their sins. Then when god finally decided to set his plan of salvation into motion it was like molasses running downhill in winter. Only a smattering of those in the mid-east and those in Rome eventually heard about salvation through Jesus (Christianity didn't become the accepted religion in Rome until 300 CE). Slowly, over hundreds of years, people of other lands were introduced to the "message," some not hearing about salvation through Christ until the twentieth century. In the meantime the omnipotent god of Abraham turned a blind eye to the millions upon millions of people who had died and were dying without benefit of the death of his son.

So what could have been going on in gods mind? What kind of mind lays misery on an entire species of creatures and then provides a cure that is so confined and works so slowly it only affects a pitiful percentage of them? Were these clueless people somehow undeserving of salvation? Was this some kind of experiment of god's, using the unaware as a control group?

Considering that salvation is such a big deal, to me a decent being would never withhold such a gift. I know of people, myself included, who would never be so merciless. So, I can only conclude that when it comes to the truth of the matter, god simply doesn't care. He eventually threw a bone to his creation and doesn't care who sees it or not.

Of course, if I've missed an important element here, I'm all ears.

That's assuming a theology that says that all non-Christians go to Hell. I don't believe that and neither does the Catholic Church. The Bible doesn't even say that. The Bosom of Abraham is where all the righteous people who lived before Christ went to await His triumph on the Cross. When He died, He went to the Bosom of Abraham and took all of those people to Heaven.

Harrowing of Hell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for after the time of Christ, people who are not Christian are judged on the basis of what they know and what they did. We believe that people have a conscience that is given by God and that if they follow it to the best of their abilities and do not shut out the Divine, they may be saved.

There's also universalism which believes or at least hopes that all beings will eventually be reconciled to God. We may at least have that hope. There was also a Catholic cardinal who said that we don't have to believe that there's anyone in Hell.

 

[allfoak]

If i were to accept that there is a God and that doesn't care;
My purpose for living would be called into question.
It would be better to be an atheist.
It seems like an awful way to have to live.

 

[Thruve]

Before Jesus came onto the scene people were dying left and right without being saved from the wages of their sins. Then when god finally decided to set his plan of salvation into motion it was like molasses running downhill in winter. Only a smattering of those in the mid-east and those in Rome eventually heard about salvation through Jesus (Christianity didn't become the accepted religion in Rome until 300 CE). Slowly, over hundreds of years, people of other lands were introduced to the "message," some not hearing about salvation through Christ until the twentieth century. In the meantime the omnipotent god of Abraham turned a blind eye to the millions upon millions of people who had died and were dying without benefit of the death of his son.

So what could have been going on in gods mind? What kind of mind lays misery on an entire species of creatures and then provides a cure that is so confined and works so slowly it only affects a pitiful percentage of them? Were these clueless people somehow undeserving of salvation? Was this some kind of experiment of god's, using the unaware as a control group?

Considering that salvation is such a big deal, to me a decent being would never withhold such a gift. I know of people, myself included, who would never be so merciless. So, I can only conclude that when it comes to the truth of the matter, god simply doesn't care. He eventually threw a bone to his creation and doesn't care who sees it or not.

Of course, if I've missed an important element here, I'm all ears.

Personally, I too think there's some intended manipulative bs wording/translation in some verses that compliment your argument. I've come to the conclusion that the prophets fooked up big time, and tried to manipulate the world into a single faith like the Quran does, or perhaps our.. whats the term being thrown around... Cherry picking? -> is the reason why were interpreting everything so wickedly. That, or theres purpose for these verses if they weren't intended to be.. "cherry picked".

Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

*Which, according to context, is being said by a young man just chilling outside by Jesus' empty tomb to the deciples after Jesus was crucified, to whom they had went to see and found that the tomb was empty, No? He was telling them that verse, and said to spread it. The story has purpose, but to me it sounded more like a command to get them out and about and to get the ball rolling. If it was true, for all we know it could have been by gods to give out the next command.. Some random dude just chilling by Jesus' empty tomb? I mean.. IDK, but I refuse to take that verse literally in the way most others do. Do I think a todays Muslim, or a man who died before AD is damned for eternity unless he so chose it spiritually at some point in time after being spiritually aware of what the hell was going on, in this life or the next..? NAH. I bet prophets for told the story of Jesus LONG before he was even born just because of what they were witnessing in peoples lives, and how events were playing out, which would have suggested Jesus was to come eventually at some point, right? We don't know how long salvation has been around lol All we do know is that Jesus happened, and only why he happened is important, not when. Salvation could have been around since day 1 son, but the purpose saying otherwise in text surely serves a messed up purpose, yes.

Maybe the spiritual influence Jesus has on us has been around since day 1, but only now can we interpret it because he actually physically happened in the timeline, providing us with an actual visual representation to draw from. Since AD we've been able to comprehend and understand the purpose of something that could have been influencing us centuries before. Me No Know!?!?
But..

Thats my Two cents atleast, Nothing is certain!

 

[Skwim]

That's assuming a theology that says that all non-Christians go to Hell. I don't believe that and neither does the Catholic Church. The Bible doesn't even say that. The Bosom of Abraham is where all the righteous people who lived before Christ went to await His triumph on the Cross. When He died, He went to the Bosom of Abraham and took all of those people to Heaven.

So this Bosom of Abraham is a way station situated in hell? Hardly a just reward for the righteous to spend their waiting time. But I'm curious; just what does it take to be a righteous person? And, were many aware this Bosom of Abraham existed and that they had to be a righteous person to make it there? Seems to me that those in the know had a leg-up on all the others who were oblivious of this little perk.

As for after the time of Christ, people who are not Christian are judged on the basis of what they know and what they did.

Which, compared with those in the know, is a huge handicap.

We believe that people have a conscience that is given by God and that if they follow it to the best of their abilities and do not shut out the Divine, they may be saved.

"May be saved." How nice. And, of course, it still takes an awareness of the Divine and all the attendant rules to benefit from the program, which, as I pointed, hasn't been common knowledge to a significant part of the world's population. Their ultimate destination is southward, not heavenly.

There's also universalism which believes or at least hopes that all beings will eventually be reconciled to God. We may at least have that hope.

Eventually still implies falling short of the benefit of salvation through Christ. No matter how you cut the cake most of the world ends up eating the crumbs, while a lucky a few get to lick the icing off their fingers.

There was also a Catholic cardinal who said that we don't have to believe that there's anyone in Hell.

Are you saying that the reality of hell depends on one's belief in it? If so, then let me wallow in ignorance.

If i were to accept that there is a God and that doesn't care;
My purpose for living would be called into question.
It would be better to be an atheist.
It seems like an awful way to have to live.

Yeah, a lot of people believe because they have to, not because there's necessarily any truth in their belief.

 

[allfoak]

Yeah, a lot of people believe because they have to, not because there's necessarily any truth in their belief.

This can be very damaging to people.
One of the things that it can do is the very thing that we are talking about.
Why should i believe in a God that doesn't care is a very common mantra.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So this Bosom of Abraham is a way station situated in hell? Hardly a just reward for the righteous to spend their waiting time.

No, it was not in the Hell of the damned. In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, it is presented as a pleasant place where the souls in it are comforted. It was like a temporary form of limbo where the souls could feel happy as they waited for the Lord.

But I'm curious; just what does it take to be a righteous person?

To do good, to practice virtue.

And, were many aware this Bosom of Abraham existed and that they had to be a righteous person to make it there? Seems to me that those in the know had a leg-up on all the others who were oblivious of this little perk.

I don't see how knowing the existence of it would effect whether you would go there or not. A person didn't need to know about it or even about Abrahamic religion to go there.

Which, compared with those in the know, is a huge handicap.

How?

"May be saved." How nice.

No one's salvation is assured.

And, of course, it still takes an awareness of the Divine and all the attendant rules to benefit from the program, which, as I pointed, hasn't been common knowledge to a significant part of the world's population. Their ultimate destination is southward, not heavenly.

Wrong.

Eventually still implies falling short of the benefit of salvation through Christ. No matter how you cut the cake most of the world ends up eating the crumbs, while a lucky a few get to lick the icing off their fingers.

Wrong. A person is not judged on the basis of what they could not know explicitly.

Are you saying that the reality of hell depends on one's belief in it? If so, then let me wallow in ignorance.

No. The cardinal was saying that Hell exists but that doesn't mean there's anyone in it. Read it in context of what I was saying about universalism.

You seem to be approaching this from some conservative Protestant concept of salvation. That's extremely different from how Catholics and the Orthodox view it. It's not a black and white thing.

From the Catechism:

"How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his Body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men." (CCC 846-848)

 

[allfoak]

A righteous person is one who lives according to what is right and left.
One who makes the above like the below, and makes the inside like the outside.
One who makes the male to be like the female and the female like the male.
Those who are righteous do not need approval.