God simply doesn't care

[idav]

God tried to save humans more than once. First time was just one rule but it was too much. He tried 10 commandments, that failed immediately. God sending his son as a sacrifice, a last resort, for us is a declaration that humans suck that bad that we require a divine scapegoat.

 

[Skwim]

Please show your source that they weren't

As has been pointed out countless times here on RF, the burden of proof falls on the person making the affirmative claim, which in this case is you.

And I didn't say everyone,

Sure you did.

"...the OT is all about the people who lived before Jesus, And how they obtained God's Grace and essentially salvation."​

Your unqualified "the people who lived . . ." implies everyone. If it didn't you would have prefaced it by a qualifier.

Not everyone has Salvation now, So why would you expect them all to have it then?

I don't, which is why gods little salvation project involving humans is so disgustingly unfair.

Your post has been answered,

So are all answers to all questions correct? Of course not. Get my point?

There was Salvation before Christ and God did care before Christ,

Then why does John 3:16 proclaim

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
​

If all this saving was already going on?

​

 

[Thana]

As has been pointed out countless times here on RF, the burden of proof falls on the person making the affirmative claim, which in this case is you.

I'm not claiming all were saved, But you're claiming all weren't saved. Kinda seems like you're the one needing to prove your assertion, Not me.
In the end, You have no source, You're just assuming.

Sure you did.

"...the OT is all about the people who lived before Jesus, And how they obtained God's Grace and essentially salvation."​

Your unqualified "the people who lived . . ." implies everyone. If it didn't you would have prefaced it by a qualifier.

Well that's really grasping, But sure, My mistake. I didn't mean everyone. Now you know.

I don't, which is why gods little salvation project involving humans is so disgustingly unfair.

Please. Like you can honestly say that if you had the power, You'd give Salvation to every single person who's ever lived.

So are all answers to all questions correct? Of course not. Get my point?

In this case, The answer is correct. You claimed there was no salvation for the people before Christ, And I've presented you with proof of the opposite.
Seems pretty cut and dry to me, But if you want to ignore the evidence then I suppose that's your prerogative.

Then why does John 3:16 proclaim

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
​

If all this saving was already going on?

The masses then were worshipping false Gods, Sacrificing babies and pretty much debasing themselves in all sorts of fun ways. Salvation, en masse, was needed, therefore Christ.
But the righteous before Christ were known by God, And had His Grace.

Perhaps you should peruse the Old Testament, All the answers you're looking for are in there. If you genuinely want to know, that is. Though I'm doubtful.

 

[Sabour]

Before Jesus came onto the scene people were dying left and right without being saved from the wages of their sins. Then when god finally decided to set his plan of salvation into motion it was like molasses running downhill in winter. Only a smattering of those in the mid-east and those in Rome eventually heard about salvation through Jesus (Christianity didn't become the accepted religion in Rome until 300 CE). Slowly, over hundreds of years, people of other lands were introduced to the "message," some not hearing about salvation through Christ until the twentieth century. In the meantime the omnipotent god of Abraham turned a blind eye to the millions upon millions of people who had died and were dying without benefit of the death of his son.

So what could have been going on in gods mind? What kind of mind lays misery on an entire species of creatures and then provides a cure that is so confined and works so slowly it only affects a pitiful percentage of them? Were these clueless people somehow undeserving of salvation? Was this some kind of experiment of god's, using the unaware as a control group?

Considering that salvation is such a big deal, to me a decent being would never withhold such a gift. I know of people, myself included, who would never be so merciless. So, I can only conclude that when it comes to the truth of the matter, god simply doesn't care. He eventually threw a bone to his creation and doesn't care who sees it or not.

Of course, if I've missed an important element here, I'm all ears.

There are too many pieces of the puzzle that you missed out.

 

[Skwim]

I'm not claiming all were saved, But you're claiming all weren't saved. Kinda seems like you're the one needing to prove your assertion, Not me.
In the end, You have no source, You're just assuming.

Were people saved from their sins and gained salvation before Jesus came on the scene? If so, then Jesus was unnecessary. If not then they must have died without being saved. Then, assuming Jesus was needed, salvation was only to be had through belief in him.

Acts 4:10-12
be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, in him does this man stand here before you whole. 11 He is ‘the stone which was regarded as worthless by you, the builders, which has become the head of the corner.’[a] 12 There is salvation in none other, for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, by which we must be saved!”

As explained in Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible this passage means:

"Neither is there salvation in any other,.... Meaning not corporeal healing, but spiritual and eternal salvation; the Syriac version renders it, neither is there "redemption in any other": Christ is the only Saviour and Redeemer,"​

Logically then, those, who for whatever reason, didn't get the message lost out on salvation.

Please. Like you can honestly say that if you had the power, You'd give Salvation to every single person who's ever lived.

Truthfully, I would have never made it necessary to be saved. I wouldn't have laid sin and suffering on all my creatures just because of the blunder of two gullible souls years ago.

In this case, The answer is correct. You claimed there was no salvation for the people before Christ, And I've presented you with proof of the opposite.

Proof? your assertion:

"You do realize the OT is all about the people who lived before Jesus, And how they obtained God's Grace and essentially salvation."

is proof? Give me a break.

There are too many pieces of the puzzle that you missed out.

Yeah, I figured it was to difficult to explain away. However, I'll settle for a few of these many pieces. What ya got?



Note to Saint Frankenstein.

I began to reply to each of your points in post #19, but quickly found myself having to explain elements that bored me, and realized I wasn't caring any more. Therefore I'm bailing on you. Sorry. It happens from time to time so don't take it personally. You're a good poster and I always enjoy your comments.

Skwim

 

[Thana]

Were people saved from their sins and gained salvation before Jesus came on the scene? If so, then Jesus was unnecessary. If not then they must have died without being saved. Then, assuming Jesus was needed, salvation was only to be had through belief in him.

Acts 4:10-12
be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, in him does this man stand here before you whole. 11 He is ‘the stone which was regarded as worthless by you, the builders, which has become the head of the corner.’[a] 12 There is salvation in none other, for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, by which we must be saved!”

As explained in Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible this passage means:

"Neither is there salvation in any other,.... Meaning not corporeal healing, but spiritual and eternal salvation; the Syriac version renders it, neither is there "redemption in any other": Christ is the only Saviour and Redeemer,"​

Logically then, those, who for whatever reason, didn't get the message lost out on salvation.

Jesus was necessary to fufill the covenant, Branch in the Gentiles and make Salvation much more attainable.
If you really want to know all about this subject, If you're genuine, Then I'll repeat myself, Read the OT.
If you want to learn about geology, You go pick up a book about geology. And usually people do research before they go asking questions that already have in-depth answers written down and easily available. Just sayin'

Truthfully, I would have never made it necessary to be saved. I wouldn't have laid sin and suffering on all my creatures just because of the blunder of two gullible souls years ago.

I see. So then what would you choose instead, Make them blind, obedient mindless worshippers or maybe just make them never exist at all. Choice is overrated, right?

Proof? your assertion:

"You do realize the OT is all about the people who lived before Jesus, And how they obtained God's Grace and essentially salvation."

is proof? Give me a break.

In the context of this debate, Yes, The OT is proof.

 

[InChrist]

When reading the Bible as a whole I think it is clear that at a point in time determined by God, the death of Jesus Christ on the cross for the sins of the world and His resurrection which brings eternal life to all who believe demonstrates God's immense love and care for all people, past, present, and future. I believe all of HIStory revolves around this event for the benefit of humanity's forgiveness, freedom, and eternal life.. Yet, prior to the cross people were only accountable and saved by their faith toward God relative to the revelation each personally received.

"What has changed through the ages is the content of a believer's faith. God's requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time. This is called progressive revelation. Adam believed the promise God gave in Genesis 3:15 that the Seed of the woman would conquer Satan. Adam believed Him, demonstrated by the name he gave Eve (v. 20) and the Lord indicated His acceptance immediately by covering them with coats of skin (v. 21). At that point that is all Adam knew, but he believed it.

Abraham believed God according to the promises and new revelation God gave him in Genesis 12 and 15. Prior to Moses, no Scripture was written, but mankind was responsible for what God had revealed. Throughout the Old Testament, believers came to salvation because they believed that God would someday take care of their sin problem. Today, we look back, believing that He has already taken care of our sins on the cross (John 3:16; Hebrews 9:28)."

Read more: How were people saved before Jesus died for our sins?

I see a thread like this as merely another contrived excuse for an anti-theist to attack the character of God

 

[Whiterain]

No Barbarian tongue... God only chooses...

It has been this way. Only contemporary organization has orchestrated "Gods" debacle.... No God gave anything but a commanding leadership; feed them. Man does has the technology to engineer nutrients... No God of mine claimed such duties, Christ or other; these are Commanders, not magicians.

Even though I accept Merlin as Odin, I am not expecting him to fly in as a dove from the sky.

I'm not trying to lead a smear job but god damn the Church lead a smear job.

 

[Skwim]

When reading the Bible as a whole I think it is clear that at a point in time determined by God, the death of Jesus Christ on the cross for the sins of the world and His resurrection which brings eternal life to all who believe demonstrates God's immense love and care for all people, past, present, and future. I believe all of HIStory revolves around this event for the benefit of humanity's forgiveness, freedom, and eternal life.. Yet, prior to the cross people were only accountable and saved by their faith toward God relative to the revelation each personally received.

"What has changed through the ages is the content of a believer's faith. God's requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time. This is called progressive revelation. Adam believed the promise God gave in Genesis 3:15 that the Seed of the woman would conquer Satan. Adam believed Him, demonstrated by the name he gave Eve (v. 20) and the Lord indicated His acceptance immediately by covering them with coats of skin (v. 21). At that point that is all Adam knew, but he believed it.

Abraham believed God according to the promises and new revelation God gave him in Genesis 12 and 15. Prior to Moses, no Scripture was written, but mankind was responsible for what God had revealed. Throughout the Old Testament, believers came to salvation because they believed that God would someday take care of their sin problem. Today, we look back, believing that He has already taken care of our sins on the cross (John 3:16; Hebrews 9:28)."

Read more: How were people saved before Jesus died for our sins?

This is supposed to address the points I brought up? Good grief man, put your reading glasses on and reread my OP, please. If all you have to offer are irrelevancies than please save both of us the time of reading them.

I see a thread like this as merely another contrived excuse for an anti-theist to attack the character of God

And yet you feel compelled to defend his character with some ill conceived and poorly written response from some second rate apologist web site. I've read far better apologetics from members here on RF. I suggest you seek them out.

 

[oldbadger]

.................................
So what could have been going on in gods mind? ................................
Of course, if I've missed an important element here, I'm all ears.

My take........... :-
Do you care about, say, your skin? ..... or your finger nails? You do..... is my guess. And you clip your toe and finger nails.

But do you lie in bed at night worrying about what happened to your nail clippings, and wondering about their welfare? I don't think that God worries about us, particularly.

But that's not all bad..... it simply means that everything is a part of God, every particle and force. It was ok for the millenii before you were borne..... you were dead for a very long time, and it will be ok for the millenii after you go to death yet again...... everything will be ok.

Oh....... and if there is anything that you want to do, or have, for goodness sake do try to achieve it........ and have a good day, today and every day......

 

[Skwim]

My take........... :-
Do you care about, say, your skin? ..... or your finger nails? You do..... is my guess. And you clip your toe and finger nails.

But do you lie in bed at night worrying about what happened to your nail clippings, and wondering about their welfare? I don't think that God worries about us, particularly.

But that's not all bad..... it simply means that everything is a part of God, every particle and force. It was ok for the millenii before you were borne..... you were dead for a very long time, and it will be ok for the millenii after you go to death yet again...... everything will be ok.

Oh....... and if there is anything that you want to do, or have, for goodness sake do try to achieve it........ and have a good day, today and every day......

And this might be okay if it wasn't for the fact that god saddled us with sin and suffering in the first place, AND offered a remedy to only some. So your assessment that god doesn't worry about us, particularly is right on: God simply doesn't care, which I can't characterize as okay..

 

[Scott C.]

Of course, if I've missed an important element here, I'm all ears.

Yes, you did leave out an important element, one that refutes all that you said. God offers salvation through Jesus Christ to every human being ever born. The terms and conditions are the same for all.

 

[Skwim]

Yes, you did leave out an important element, one that refutes all that you said. God offers salvation through Jesus Christ to every human being ever born. The terms and conditions are the same for all.

So, between the time humans first emerged and the time of the resurrection what was their state of being after having died? Moreover, what about

John 14:6, which declares, “I [Christ] am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by Me.” And Acts 4:12, that says, “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name [Jesus Christ] under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” And Acts 16:30-31:". . .Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, . . . ." And, Romans 10:13, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

?​

Seems this is one huge qualifier that excludes a lot of people from salvation, including all those who predate Jesus. Didn't find anything in the Bible about granting automatic salvation to these old souls.

 

[allfoak]

Christ is a power not a person.
There is no historical component to salvation.

 

[George-ananda]

Christ is a power not a person.
There is no historical component to salvation.

Very well said. This broadens Christianity to something pertinent to intellectual thought today. The anti-Christians want to narrow down Christianity to the ancient narrowest perspective. Christianity is a living religion.

 

[Scott C.]

So, between the time humans first emerged and the time of the resurrection what was their state of being after having died? Moreover, what about

John 14:6, which declares, “I [Christ] am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by Me.” And Acts 4:12, that says, “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name [Jesus Christ] under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” And Acts 16:30-31:". . .Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, . . . ." And, Romans 10:13, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

?​

Seems this is one huge qualifier that excludes a lot of people from salvation, including all those who predate Jesus. Didn't find anything in the Bible about granting automatic salvation to these old souls.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is preached to people after death in the spirit world, a place of waiting for the resurrection. There everyone will hear of Christ.

 

[allfoak]

The gospel of Jesus Christ is preached to people after death in the spirit world, a place of waiting for the resurrection. There everyone will hear of Christ.

convenient

 

[Skwim]

There is no historical component to salvation.

So you're saying that salvation didn't begin with the death and resurrection of Jesus, but was always there?

Very well said. This broadens Christianity to something pertinent to intellectual thought today. The anti-Christians want to narrow down Christianity to the ancient narrowest perspective. Christianity is a living religion.

And the anti-intellectual wants to desperately ignore the complicating implications of his beliefs so as to remain secure in his faith. Christianity is certainly a living religion, but one whose adherents live in fear of the specter of doubt. And this response is typical. Don't address the issue but attack those that raise them: "The anti-Christians want to narrow down Christianity to the ancient narrowest perspective." what ever that means.

 

[allfoak]

So you're saying that salvation didn't begin with the death and resurrection of Jesus, but was always there?

that's correct

 

[Skwim]

The gospel of Jesus Christ is preached to people after death in the spirit world a place of waiting for the resurrection

Which obviously includes Hell, where millions upon millions of people suffer its fury, including those who had to suffer in agony for thousands of years waiting for Jesus to arrive.

. . . There everyone will hear of Christ.

I assume you're not making all this up, but have it on good authority. Care to share your source?
______________________________________________

that's correct

So if salvation was always chugging along why was Jesus needed?