God simply doesn't care

[Sapiens]

The reason I say "it gets weirder," is that except for the reuse of the names the fairy tale is almost unrecognizable (from the outside) as a from of Christianity. If that insight makes your case, well ... enjoy.

 

[Skwim]

It gets weirder:

from Gospel of Jesus Christ - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism

LDS scriptures explain that after the Lord had taught Adam and Eve the Plan of Salvation and the gospel (Moses 5:4-11), Adam was "caught away by the Spirit of the Lord" into the water where he was baptized. Following his baptism, the "Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit" (Moses 6:48-68). In later describing this experience, Enoch explained that God called upon Adam with his own voice, teaching him the same gospel set out in other scriptures: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost [Moses 6:52].

Latter-day scripture records that Adam and Eve taught their children the gospel, but that Satan came among them and persuaded some to love him more than God (Moses 5:13; see Devils). Thus it has been with the descendants of Adam and Eve, and in this situation, the Lord called upon people everywhere to believe in the Son and to repent of their sins that they might be saved. This gospel message was a "firm decree" sent forth "in the world, until the end thereof," and was preached from the beginning by angels, by the voice of God, and by the Holy Ghost (Moses 5:12-15, 58-59).

Latter-day Saints understand the history of the world in terms of periods of faithfulness and of apostasy. Although there have been many times when the gospel of Jesus Christ has been lost from the earth, it has repeatedly been restored through prophets sent to declare new dispensations of the gospel. The gospel has been given to successive generations and will maintain its efficacy forever. The restoration of the fulness of the gospel to Joseph Smith initiated the "last dispensation," or the dispensation of the fulness of times, and he was promised that the gospel will never again be taken from the earth. The gospel of Jesus Christ continues to be the only means given under heaven whereby men and women can come to their Savior and be saved, and is the standard against which all people will be judged (see Judgment Day, Final).

One of the stranger things I've read about Mormon belief is their planet or star Kolob, which may be the residence of god. If I recall correctly, earth was created out of Kolob and then moved to its present position in orbit around the Sun. While not nearly as difficult to swallow as the great flood, it still stretches one's imagination beyond reason.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Where was God during the Holocaust? I've never heard a convincing answer to that question. Logically it means either that God was powerless to intervene, or that God didn't care. In either case, what use is He?

 

[Thief]

Where was God during the Holocaust? I've never heard a convincing answer to that question. Logically it means either that God was powerless to intervene, or that God didn't care. In either case, what use is He?

Next life.
Or perhaps the complaint you have will carry over.
Or do you prefer to say there is not life after death?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Next life.
Or perhaps the complaint you have will carry over.
Or do you prefer to say there is not life after death?

Sorry but this doesn't answer the question I posed. Here it is again: "Where was God during the Holocaust? I've never heard a convincing answer to that question. Logically it means either that God was powerless to intervene, or that God didn't care. In either case, what use is He?"

 

[Thief]

Sorry but this doesn't answer the question I posed. Here it is again: "Where was God during the Holocaust? I've never heard a convincing answer to that question. Logically it means either that God was powerless to intervene, or that God didn't care. In either case, what use is He?"

God gave Man dominion.....He will stand back.
How is that a problem?

 

[Skwim]

God gave Man dominion.....He will stand back.
How is that a problem?

Actually, there isn't any unless you claim he's some kind of benevolent, loving, merciful, and all-powerful deity.

 

[Katzpur]

One of the stranger things I've read about Mormon belief is their planet or star Kolob, which may be the residence of god.

It's funny that you'd mention this. I searched some of my prior posts for any references to Kolob, and was surprised to find that I specifically addressed what I'm reposting now to you, specifically, Skwim. Since you evidently chose to ignore what I said the first time around, I probably shouldn't expect you to pay any more attention this time. At any rate, here's what I said with respect to Kolob last time you brought it up:

We believe in God. He lives in Heaven. Heaven is a real place. Of all the stars in the sky, one of them is closer to heaven than the rest. That star has a name by which God refers to it in the "Pearl of Great Price." The name of that star is Kolob. I realize that most of the world's Christians believe that God doesn't actually reside anywhere, but instead fills the universe. That, unfortunately is not what the Bible says. The Bible consistently refers to God as being "in Heaven" and Mormon doctrine is consistent with that.

If I recall correctly, earth was created out of Kolob and then moved to its present position in orbit around the Sun. While not nearly as difficult to swallow as the great flood, it still stretches one's imagination beyond reason.

Well, you didn't recall correctly. We have absolutely no doctrine that says any such thing.

Oh, and just one final thing. I am now 66 years old and have been a Mormon all of my life. Do you have any idea as to how many times I've heard Kolob mentioned in a sermon or in classroom study in all those years? Exactly zero. Another Mormon might have heard it mentioned two or three times in that same period of time. Does that give you any kind of a clue as to how important this belief is when seen in light of our overall theology? If it doesn't, it should. You could find some odd-sounding, obscure proper noun in the Bible and you'd just gloss over it. You would be very unlikely to think that it was central to either Judaism or Christianity.

As a sideline... Kolob is also the name of a beautiful red-rock canyon in Southern Utah. You ought to come to Utah and see it some time.

 

[Katzpur]

Your quotes help make my case. The fact that you find the concept of the "restoration of the gospel in the dispensation of the fullness of times" to be weird, does not change the fact that my church teaches that salvation is fairly offered to all.

LOL! Yeah, how bizarre can a doctrine possibly get?

 

[Katzpur]

Where was God during the Holocaust? I've never heard a convincing answer to that question. Logically it means either that God was powerless to intervene, or that God didn't care. In either case, what use is He?

Or maybe God was deeply saddened by man's inhumanity to man, but had already committed to allowing each person to choose for himself how he would live his life, even if it meant that sometimes we would do some very cruel things to one another.

 

[allfoak]

I would like to know why anyone would trust another person's interpretation of any writing that is designed to be interpreted by the reader only?

This perception that people have of an uncaring God is fostered by organized religion and what Thomas Paine called priestcraft.
Anyone who thinks that salvation is free does not attend "church".
If you attend church and put nothing in the plate then shame on you for robbing someone of their lively hood by taking services they expect you to in good faith pay for.

I would stay out of places like that if you are looking for the truth.

 

[kjw47]

Before Jesus came onto the scene people were dying left and right without being saved from the wages of their sins. Then when god finally decided to set his plan of salvation into motion it was like molasses running downhill in winter. Only a smattering of those in the mid-east and those in Rome eventually heard about salvation through Jesus (Christianity didn't become the accepted religion in Rome until 300 CE). Slowly, over hundreds of years, people of other lands were introduced to the "message," some not hearing about salvation through Christ until the twentieth century. In the meantime the omnipotent god of Abraham turned a blind eye to the millions upon millions of people who had died and were dying without benefit of the death of his son.

So what could have been going on in gods mind? What kind of mind lays misery on an entire species of creatures and then provides a cure that is so confined and works so slowly it only affects a pitiful percentage of them? Were these clueless people somehow undeserving of salvation? Was this some kind of experiment of god's, using the unaware as a control group?

Considering that salvation is such a big deal, to me a decent being would never withhold such a gift. I know of people, myself included, who would never be so merciless. So, I can only conclude that when it comes to the truth of the matter, god simply doesn't care. He eventually threw a bone to his creation and doesn't care who sees it or not.

Of course, if I've missed an important element here, I'm all ears.

Issues were raised against God in the garden of Eden rebellion, they are being settled, once and for all time--as well as the issues raised against Gods true followers concerning Job.
God has to make decisions concerning all for all time--a mortal sees a little more than their own world, they haven't a clue.
God created mortals to live in perfect health,, living forever, and only knowing good. His kingdom will make that a reality again.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Sorry but this doesn't answer the question I posed. Here it is again: "Where was God during the Holocaust? I've never heard a convincing answer to that question. Logically it means either that God was powerless to intervene, or that God didn't care. In either case, what use is He?"

God made a world entirely free of fear, cruelty, grieving, or challenges of any kind which still exists today- for Jellyfish, and hence no joy, love, learning and progress for them either, would you trade?

i.e. you can't have good without evil, they are defined by each other

 

[Skwim]

If I recall correctly, earth was created out of Kolob and then moved to its present position in orbit around the Sun. While not nearly as difficult to swallow as the great flood, it still stretches one's imagination beyond reason.

Well, you didn't recall correctly. We have absolutely no doctrine that says any such thing.

Fine, it's not doctrine, but it's still something I had heard Mormons believe.

Did a little look-around on Google and found this little piece from Wikipedia. (If you Google "Kolob planet" you'll find quite a few web sites).

"Birthplace for the earth

According to several Mormon writers (such as Cleon Skousen in his book The First 2000 Years), the earth was created near Kolob over a period of 6000 years, and then moved to its present position in our solar system.[29][30][31] This hypothesis is based on oral comments attributed to Smith.[26] The hypothesis is also based on a passage from the Book of Abraham stating that in the Garden of Eden, time was measured "after the Lord's time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed to Adam his reckoning".[32] According to the hypothesis, the reason that Earth time was measured in Kolob time was because the earth was physically located near Kolob. As a corollary, some Mormon writers argue that at the end times, the earth will be plucked from the solar system and returned to its original orbit near Kolob.[33]

Using traditional creationist reasoning, LDS Church apostle Bruce R. McConkie came to a different conclusion, arguing that during the first "day" of creation (not necessarily a 1000-year "day" in Kolob time; with a "day" referring to a phase of creation), Earth was formed and placed in orbit around the Sun.[34]

The idea that the Earth was formed elsewhere and then migrated to orbit around the Sun differs from the scientific explanation of the Earth's formation. According to scientific consensus, the Earth formed in orbit around the Sun about 4.5 billion years ago by accretion from a protoplanetary disk, and remained near its original orbit until the present.[35]"
​

I also found this little gem.

source​

Oh, and just one final thing. I am now 66 years old and have been a Mormon all of my life. Do you have any idea as to how many times I've heard Kolob mentioned in a sermon or in classroom study in all those years? Exactly zero. Another Mormon might have heard it mentioned two or three times in that same period of time. Does that give you any kind of a clue as to how important this belief is when seen in light of our overall theology? If it doesn't, it should. You could find some odd-sounding, obscure proper noun in the Bible and you'd just gloss over it. You would be very unlikely to think that it was central to either Judaism or Christianity.

I really can't speak to your education or lack thereof, but evidently Kolob has been of interest to other Mormons besides Mormon prophet John Taylor cited above. . . .

Source:ibid.​

 

[Skwim]

Issues were raised against God in the garden of Eden rebellion, they are being settled, once and for all time--as well as the issues raised against Gods true followers concerning Job.
God has to make decisions concerning all for all time--a mortal sees a little more than their own world, they haven't a clue.
God created mortals to live in perfect health,, living forever, and only knowing good. His kingdom will make that a reality again.

Nice, I guess, but I fail to see the relevance.

 

[kjw47]

Nice, I guess, but I fail to see the relevance.

Its almost done, but the door remains open.

 

[kjw47]

Nice, I guess, but I fail to see the relevance.

Yes many were dying--most have been mislead throughout mankinds history. The wages of sin = death-- many will have an opportunity to learn and have life everlasting if they apply what they learn.( in the resurrection)

 

[Katzpur]

Fine, it's not doctrine, but it's still something I had heard Mormons believe.

Did a little look-around on Google and found this little piece from Wikipedia. (If you Google "Kolob planet" you'll find quite a few web sites).

"Birthplace for the earth

According to several Mormon writers (such as Cleon Skousen in his book The First 2000 Years), the earth was created near Kolob over a period of 6000 years, and then moved to its present position in our solar system.[29][30][31] This hypothesis is based on oral comments attributed to Smith.[26] The hypothesis is also based on a passage from the Book of Abraham stating that in the Garden of Eden, time was measured "after the Lord's time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed to Adam his reckoning".[32] According to the hypothesis, the reason that Earth time was measured in Kolob time was because the earth was physically located near Kolob. As a corollary, some Mormon writers argue that at the end times, the earth will be plucked from the solar system and returned to its original orbit near Kolob.[33]

Using traditional creationist reasoning, LDS Church apostle Bruce R. McConkie came to a different conclusion, arguing that during the first "day" of creation (not necessarily a 1000-year "day" in Kolob time; with a "day" referring to a phase of creation), Earth was formed and placed in orbit around the Sun.[34]

The idea that the Earth was formed elsewhere and then migrated to orbit around the Sun differs from the scientific explanation of the Earth's formation. According to scientific consensus, the Earth formed in orbit around the Sun about 4.5 billion years ago by accretion from a protoplanetary disk, and remained near its original orbit until the present.[35]"
​

I also found this little gem.

source​

I really can't speak to your education or lack thereof, but evidently Kolob has been of interest to other Mormons besides Mormon prophet John Taylor cited above. . . .

Source:ibid.​

That's nice, but not one of these statements is from a doctrinal source. I just find it kind of strange that you would focus on something so trivial that it is virtually never even mentioned in the Church, when there is so much about Mormonism that, while you may not agree with it, you would hardly find "weird." Trust me, if I wanted to know what Mormons believe, the Almighty Wiki would hardly be my first choice of sources.

When people are willing to simply set aside these peripheral doctrines (such as Kolob) and focus on our core doctrines, they come away with a completely different level of understanding and, yes, respect for the religion. As a matter of fact, the thing that draws me to Mormonism is how completely rational and logical the LDS understanding of God's Plan of Salvation is when compared to that of other Christian denominations.

 

[Skwim]

Yes many were dying--most have been mislead throughout mankinds history. The wages of sin = death-- many will have an opportunity to learn and have life everlasting if they apply what they learn.( in the resurrection)

"Many will have an opportunity to learn"? Not All? Again, evidently god isn't letting everyone in to his party. Moreover, learning of this everlasting life or not, all these poor souls have been spending their time in hell. Sorry, but your "solution" here still doesn't absolve god of his lack of caring.

 

[Katzpur]

The reason I say "it gets weirder," is that except for the reuse of the names the fairy tale is almost unrecognizable (from the outside) as a from of Christianity. If that insight makes your case, well ... enjoy.

Yeah, well, different strokes for different folks, as they say. As far as I'm concerned, though, any religion that teaches that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God and the only means by which mankind can be reconciled to the Father is only "unrecognizable as a form of Christianity" to people with who have a very narrow-minded view of what Christianity is.