God simply doesn't care

[allfoak]

Jesus was the first of humanity to return to the father.
The gospels are written with him being held up as our example not our savior.

 

[oldbadger]

And this might be okay if it wasn't for the fact that god saddled us with sin and suffering in the first place, AND offered a remedy to only some. So your assessment that god doesn't worry about us, particularly is right on: God simply doesn't care, which I can't characterize as okay..

Oh..... don't worry about God. God didn't do anything. We need to keep an eye out for mankind!
And..... come on...... folks like Hitler and Stalin were not 'God driven'.
My take is that you, yourself, are a very small part of the whole which is God....... so stop kicking yourself. Fair enough?

 

[George-ananda]

And the anti-intellectual wants to desperately ignore the complicating implications of his beliefs so as to remain secure in his faith.

No that's not what I'm saying. The pro-intellectual Christian ignores nothing but is not tied to ancient understandings. That's what I'm saying.

 

[Skwim]

The gospels are written with him being held up as our example not our savior.

Gotta say, that's a new perspective I've never read before.

Oh..... don't worry about God. God didn't do anything. We need to keep an eye out for mankind!
And..... come on...... folks like Hitler and Stalin were not 'God driven'.
My take is that you, yourself, are a very small part of the whole which is God....... so stop kicking yourself. Fair enough?

Never was kicking myself.

No that's not what I'm saying. The pro-intellectual Christian ignores nothing but is not tied to ancient understandings. That's what I'm saying.

Oh, okay.

 

[Scott C.]

convenient

Of course it's convenient. It's right. And it answers the question on the fairness of God and salvation.

 

[Scott C.]

Which obviously includes Hell, where millions upon millions of people suffer its fury, including those who had to suffer in agony for thousands of years waiting for Jesus to arrive.



I assume you're not making all this up, but have it on good authority. Care to share your source?
______________________________________________

So if salvation was always chugging along why was Jesus needed?

The need for a Savior was known from the foundation of the world. God's plan is universal. It allows for all people to hear and to accept Christ and his gospel. Some people knew Christ would come before he arrived. Most did not. People who die without a knowledge of Jesus are not in a never ending hell of fire and torture.

While it seems you do not believe in Jesus and salvation, you should be able to recognize that there are answers, among believers, to your accusations of the unfairness and meanness of God. I simply do not accept any of your conclusions in this regard. They are inconsistent with what I believe about the plan of salvation. I get that you don't believe in salvation through Christ, but do you get that you do not understand my views on how it's all consistent with a loving, just, and merciful God?

 

[InChrist]

Before Jesus came onto the scene people were dying left and right without being saved from the wages of their sins. Then when god finally decided to set his plan of salvation into motion it was like molasses running downhill in winter. Only a smattering of those in the mid-east and those in Rome eventually heard about salvation through Jesus (Christianity didn't become the accepted religion in Rome until 300 CE). Slowly, over hundreds of years, people of other lands were introduced to the "message," some not hearing about salvation through Christ until the twentieth century. In the meantime the omnipotent god of Abraham turned a blind eye to the millions upon millions of people who had died and were dying without benefit of the death of his son.

According to the scriptures God did not turn a blind eye because all people have had the opportunity to be saved by faith in God from the beginning of history, well before the time of Christ or Christianity became a "religion". The link I previously gave you listed examples of the faith expressed toward God even though at the time they did not have a full understanding of Jesus Christ, yet they believed the revelation God did give them at the time. The scriptures have many examples of this faith being expressed by individuals and groups, before the nation of Israel existed, within the nation of Israel, and outside the nation of Israel showing that salvation was and is available to all people of any nation.

So even before the time of Christ, salvation has always been in place and has always been consistently by faith based on faith in God and trust in His plan which ultimately is based on the death and resurrection of Christ offered for all, Although God's followers in the past did not know exactly how that would look. Contrary to you accusation, It was not some last minute plan set in motion too late for all who lived prior to the time of Christ but a plan to save humanity which was set from before history...but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 1 Peter 119-21

God's offer of grace and salvation can be seen throughout the scriptures for all people of any time period if you care to sincerely know the answers to your questions or you can simply go on in ignorance or deliberate denial if your purpose is simply to find excuses to attack the character of God.

 

[Sabour]

Before Jesus came onto the scene people were dying left and right without being saved from the wages of their sins. Then when god finally decided to set his plan of salvation into motion it was like molasses running downhill in winter. Only a smattering of those in the mid-east and those in Rome eventually heard about salvation through Jesus (Christianity didn't become the accepted religion in Rome until 300 CE). Slowly, over hundreds of years, people of other lands were introduced to the "message," some not hearing about salvation through Christ until the twentieth century. In the meantime the omnipotent god of Abraham turned a blind eye to the millions upon millions of people who had died and were dying without benefit of the death of his son.

So what could have been going on in gods mind? What kind of mind lays misery on an entire species of creatures and then provides a cure that is so confined and works so slowly it only affects a pitiful percentage of them? Were these clueless people somehow undeserving of salvation? Was this some kind of experiment of god's, using the unaware as a control group?

Considering that salvation is such a big deal, to me a decent being would never withhold such a gift. I know of people, myself included, who would never be so merciless. So, I can only conclude that when it comes to the truth of the matter, god simply doesn't care. He eventually threw a bone to his creation and doesn't care who sees it or not.

Of course, if I've missed an important element here, I'm all ears.

That would have been true if salvation was through believing that Jesus peace be upon him came and died for your sins. However that is not the case. Salvation is through both believing and doing righteous deeds.

As a non christian of course I can argue with what one should believe, but that is not the topic.

 

[allfoak]

Of course it's convenient. It's right. And it answers the question on the fairness of God and salvation.

How do you know it's right?

 

[InChrist]

Jesus was the first of humanity to return to the father.
The gospels are written with him being held up as our example not our savior.

Have you read the gospels?

 

[Awoon1]

Christ is a power not a person.
There is no historical component to salvation.

"Christ" is a title like President/Emperor/Teacher.

 

[allfoak]

Okay i give up.
Have it your way.

 

[Skwim]

Scott C. First things first. You asked, ". . .do you get that you do not understand my views on how it's all consistent with a loving, just, and merciful God?" Yes, I do not understand. You say:

The need for a Savior was known from the foundation of the world.

But I find this severely unlikely: everyone knew they were headed for hell unless "saved." For one thing, I don't believe this "fact" has any veracity, as in, a backed up by a reputable source.

God's plan is universal. It allows for all people to hear and to accept Christ and his gospel.

But it never worked out that way. Certainly those living and dying before Jesus came on the scene couldn't have known. And then consider all those who never had the opportunity to hear of Jesus after he was resurrected. Or heard about him but were never convinced of the need. Their fault or that of the preacher?

Some people knew Christ would come before he arrived. Most did not. People who die without a knowledge of Jesus are not in a never ending hell of fire and torture.

So where are they? And even if they aren't in a never ending hell of fire and torture, they also aren't in heaven. Close but no cigar is a sad fate when others are enjoying a Havana Corona in heaven because they were fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time. Lucky them.

While it seems you do not believe in Jesus and salvation, you should be able to recognize that there are answers, among believers, to your accusations of the unfairness and meanness of God.

Yup, and so far none of them have dispelled this conclusion. Many have tap danced around the issue, suggesting partial solutions that often contradicted one another, and others that have simply made flat out claims that I'm wrong, and let it go at that. Your conclusion below

I simply do not accept any of your conclusions in this regard. They are inconsistent with what I believe about the plan of salvation.

is typical.

My conclusions are no doubt inconsistent with your belief, but you have yet to provide a satisfactory reason for dismissing them. None of what has been said here, yours and that of others, have provided sufficient reason for dumping the notion that given all the conditions laid out in Christian theology that god simply doesn't care.

I get that you don't believe in salvation through Christ, but do you get that you do not understand my views on how it's all consistent with a loving, just, and merciful God?

Sure I do, and it comes down to a huge contradiction. A contradiction that is deliberately ignored and even dismissed in favor of holding onto the image of a loving, just, and merciful God. It's an "I Cant Hear You" position of belief. So what that god said he created evil, or disaster, or calamity, or whatever,---things humans would be damned for had they done the same---forget that and keep focused on how he has a plan to save us from the sin and suffering he laid upon us all. OOPS, forget about the sin and suffer part and keep focused on your salvation.

I know I've strayed into another issue here, but it does go hand in hand with the character of this so-called "loving god" Christians like to brag about.

 

[Scott C.]

How do you know it's right?

As a Mormon this is pretty fundamental to our beliefs. It's supported by the Bible certainly. But, it's also made crystal clear in other books that we consider to be scripture. So, when you ask "How do you know it's right?", are you asking me to show you in the Bible and/or in other Mormon scripture? Or, are you asking me one of the most classic religious questions of all time, which is "how do you know there is a God and/or a Savior, and/or that the Bible is true, and/or that other Mormon scripture is true?" I can provide lots of scriptural evidence to answer the first question. I won't try to answer the second, since that's not the point of the thread.

 

[allfoak]

As a Mormon this is pretty fundamental to our beliefs. It's supported by the Bible certainly. But, it's also made crystal clear in other books that we consider to be scripture. So, when you ask "How do you know it's right?", are you asking me to show you in the Bible and/or in other Mormon scripture? Or, are you asking me one of the most classic religious questions of all time, which is "how do you know there is a God and/or a Savior, and/or that the Bible is true, and/or that other Mormon scripture is true?" I can provide lots of scriptural evidence to answer the first question. I won't try to answer the second, since that's not the point of the thread.

I understand the Mormon faith pretty well.
No need for an answer unless you wish too of course.

I am sure that you could defend your faith well but i am not going to ask you to do so.
My point of asking the question: "how do you know it is right" was not to get into a scriptural debate with you, i would likely lose.

I have no way of debating someone from this perspective in fact.
I see things from such a different perspective than you that we would be speaking foolishness to one another.
No disrespect, it just is what it is.
We both have a right to our perspectives in life and have a duty to see to it that others have their right to their own perspective on life.

 

[Scott C.]

Scott C. First things first. You asked, ". . .do you get that you do not understand my views on how it's all consistent with a loving, just, and merciful God?" Yes, I do not understand. You say....

I believe what I believe because of what's in the Bible and other Mormon scriptures, being the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. I know you don't accept any of these as true. Nevertheless, my understanding of God's fair plan is based on what's in those books. My argument here is not that these books are true or that there is a God. My argument is that my scriptures paint a consistent picture of God's love and fairness and they resolve all of the concerns that you pointed out. If these books are false, then this is all nonsense. If they are true, then God is indeed just, merciful, perfect, loving, and kind. If you studied all of my scriptures from cover to cover, you would see this is the case.

My scriptures teach:

1. Adam and Eve knew of Jesus Christ and redemption.
2. Every person who ever lived will one day, be it in this life or the next, have the chance to accept Christ and to receive all of the blessings of the highest heaven.
3. People who are on the other side and waiting to hear the gospel are not in torture. If they were evil on earth, there is suffering. But, not knowing about Christ does not constitute evil.

Here's one example from the Pearl of Great Price that clearly teaches that Adam and Eve knew of Christ, rejoiced in their redemption and taught these things to their children. Ok, I know that it annoys some people when other people quote from their scriptures. But take a moment and read it anyway. You might learn something new.

God taught Adam and Eve about Christ and repentance.

Moses 5: 6-11

And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.

And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.

Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore.

And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

 

[Skwim]

Here's one example from the Pearl of Great Price that clearly teaches that Adam and Eve knew of Christ, rejoiced in their redemption and taught these things to their children. Ok, I know that it annoys some people when other people quote from their scriptures. But take a moment and read it anyway. You might learn something new.

God taught Adam and Eve about Christ and repentance.

If this is a link it isn't functioning. In any case what you've presented is very interesting. Quite a departure from standard Christian theology.

 

[Scott C.]

If this is a link it isn't functioning. In any case what you've presented is very interesting. Quite a departure from standard Christian theology.

It's not a link. I just underlined it. You're right that traditional Christianity is not so clear on this issue. Mormon thought adds a lot to the discussion.

 

[Sapiens]

If this is a link it isn't functioning. In any case what you've presented is very interesting. Quite a departure from standard Christian theology.

It gets weirder:

from Gospel of Jesus Christ - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism

LDS scriptures explain that after the Lord had taught Adam and Eve the Plan of Salvation and the gospel (Moses 5:4-11), Adam was "caught away by the Spirit of the Lord" into the water where he was baptized. Following his baptism, the "Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit" (Moses 6:48-68). In later describing this experience, Enoch explained that God called upon Adam with his own voice, teaching him the same gospel set out in other scriptures: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost [Moses 6:52].

Latter-day scripture records that Adam and Eve taught their children the gospel, but that Satan came among them and persuaded some to love him more than God (Moses 5:13; see Devils). Thus it has been with the descendants of Adam and Eve, and in this situation, the Lord called upon people everywhere to believe in the Son and to repent of their sins that they might be saved. This gospel message was a "firm decree" sent forth "in the world, until the end thereof," and was preached from the beginning by angels, by the voice of God, and by the Holy Ghost (Moses 5:12-15, 58-59).

Latter-day Saints understand the history of the world in terms of periods of faithfulness and of apostasy. Although there have been many times when the gospel of Jesus Christ has been lost from the earth, it has repeatedly been restored through prophets sent to declare new dispensations of the gospel. The gospel has been given to successive generations and will maintain its efficacy forever. The restoration of the fulness of the gospel to Joseph Smith initiated the "last dispensation," or the dispensation of the fulness of times, and he was promised that the gospel will never again be taken from the earth. The gospel of Jesus Christ continues to be the only means given under heaven whereby men and women can come to their Savior and be saved, and is the standard against which all people will be judged (see Judgment Day, Final).

 

[Scott C.]

It gets weirder:.

Your quotes help make my case. The fact that you find the concept of the "restoration of the gospel in the dispensation of the fullness of times" to be weird, does not change the fact that my church teaches that salvation is fairly offered to all.