Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
So God was responsible for the Holocaust? For 2 world wars?
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God simply doesn't care
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
So God was responsible for the Holocaust? For 2 world wars?
Servant_of_the_One1
Well-Known Member
Allah cares a lot.
And when My servants ask you, [O Muhammad], concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me [by obedience] and believe in Me that they may be [rightly] guided. (2:186)
"Allah says, 'I am as my servant expects Me to be, and I am with him when he remembers me. If he thinks of Me, I think of him. If he mentions Me in company, I mention him in an even better company. When he comes closer to Me by a handspan, I come closer to him an arm's length. If he draws closer to Me by an arm's length, I draw closer by a distance of two outstretched arms nearer to him. If my servant comes to Me walking, I go to him running." (Al-Bukhari)
And when My servants ask you, [O Muhammad], concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me [by obedience] and believe in Me that they may be [rightly] guided. (2:186)
"Allah says, 'I am as my servant expects Me to be, and I am with him when he remembers me. If he thinks of Me, I think of him. If he mentions Me in company, I mention him in an even better company. When he comes closer to Me by a handspan, I come closer to him an arm's length. If he draws closer to Me by an arm's length, I draw closer by a distance of two outstretched arms nearer to him. If my servant comes to Me walking, I go to him running." (Al-Bukhari)
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
That sounds like a plea for faith.
Servant_of_the_One1
Well-Known Member
Allah wants us to follow the truth. It is in our best interest.
And it is not [possible] for one to die except by permission of Allah at a decree determined. And whoever desires the reward of this world (forgetting the remembrance of his Creator)- We will give him thereof; and whoever desires the reward of the Hereafter - We will give him thereof. And we will reward the grateful. 3:145
Also in Chapter Zumar
55. "And follow the best of that which is sent down to you from your Lord (i.e. this Qur'an)), before the torment comes on you suddenly while you perceive not!"
56. Lest a person should say: "Alas, my grief that I was undutiful to Allah (i.e. I have not done what Allah has ordered me to do), and I was indeed among those who mocked(at the truth).
The Creator does not need our worship, He made his worshipping as a way to follow guidance. Only the thankful ones believe in Him and worship the Lord alone.
rrosskopf
LDS High Priest
You sound very hostile. Innocent people die all the time. In fact everyone dies all the time. None of us knows how long our lives will be.it is true that God caused the lives of many innocent children to be shortened rather than let them learn wickedness from their parents, or let them be abused by their parents. He did it out of love. It doesn't match any definition of murder that I have ever seen. If you want to be angry at someone, be angry at Satan who causes men to hate each other and want to kill each other.
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But wait........other humans say that "the truth" is contained in the bible! Who's really correct, you or them?
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
What is hostile about stating FACTS from the Bible?
The Bible says God personally struck King David's BABY - whom took 7 days to die - because of his FATHER's crimes. David who committed the crimes, gets to live and become a Bible HERO!
I find the Christian idea that it is OK to kill the innocent - for any reason - horrific!
As I've said before, it is these very texts that show me the Bible is not the work of any God - but of evil men.
*
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
So it's all Satans fault, and nothing to do with God? Where did Satan come from?
Skwim
Veteran Member
Exactly. Christians are told that their god is loving, merciful, good, gracious, just, wise, and righteous, yet he's given Satan free reign among his creation. I know that I, for one, would never permit such a creature to exist. So although it may be Satan who wreaks havoc on earth it's with god's permission. Not unlike Hitler, who may never have struck a Jew or gypsy himself, but is certainly responsible for allowing others to do much worse.
The above isn't meant to demean god, but only to show that if one wants to make claims for god then one has to deal with all the attendant repercussions that come with that claim.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
God gave Man dominion.
Listening to someone else's speech is an influence but not the decisive gesture.
Allowing Satan to exist?.....looks like thread topic to me......
rrosskopf
LDS High Priest
Sometimes willful children are rebellious. What are you going to do? It doesn't mean we have to listen to him. Lucifer is bitter and hateful and wants everyone to be miserable like himself.
rrosskopf
LDS High Priest
Generally speaking, God respects the agency of man. He is slow to defend the innocent at the cost of human liberty. He allows people the chance to repent of their wickedness. Enoch tells us that God wept, when contemplating the destruction of the earth by flood. Enoch was astonished, and asked him "How can you cry?". God answered that the angels called night and day for justice against the earth. There is a point of no return.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
Slow? That's an understatement. It would be nice to see some tangible evidence that God defends the innocent at all.
Past Genocides - Armenia, Holocaust, Cambodia, Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur
rrosskopf
LDS High Priest
Yeah, I'd like to live in a world where sin was immediately punished too... or maybe I wouldn't. I'll have to think about that.
Evidence is tricky, to say the least. The word of prophets is pretty much all there is. Take Sodom and Gomorrah, for example. It was recently proven that they did once exist, but even if we were to prove that fire came down from heaven and destroyed it, wouldn't skeptics just say it was hit by an asteroid? Of course other skeptics once mocked such events as religious fiction. Now we know, much to our horror, that they can and do happen. The story is fascinating to say the least. The reluctant Lot begs the angels to allow him to go to another town, a short distance away. The angels thought that would be fine. Then fire came down and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and suddenly Lot can't wait to get out of the country. He went up and lived in the mountains. It seems that warnings are seldom treated seriously until it is too late.
Joseph Smith once warned a man against accepting land in Jackson County, Missouri as payment on a debt. He said the day would come when Jackson County would be little more than a sea of chimneys. This man later served in the Civil War, where he saw that the houses in Jackson County had been burned down, leaving nought but chimneys. Ironically, the residents, who once forced the Mormons from their own homes, were removed from their homes as well. The action was known as General Order #11.
Blackmarch
W'rkncacntr
That Christ visited the people in spirit prison or hell after he died on the cross would seem to indicate other wise.
If God is Just then he will have something in place for addressing that fairly, even if the bible has little to none to say on the matter.
According to LDS christians, God has commanded them to do work that allows those who have passed on to the spirit world without ever hearing the word and having a chance to accept it and the ordinences that are contained there-in, an opportunity to do so.
Blackmarch
W'rkncacntr
would we want such a world where God intervenes on a whim?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
No.
It would turn into chaos.
One man wants rain for his crops...the next needs sunshine.
We would not deal with each other.
We would call upon God for all intervention.
Our spiritual development might actually stop.
We would never learn to deal with anything.
Skwim
Veteran Member
"Spirit prison"?? Sorry, but I'm not ready to address yet another facet of the Christian mythos. However---to repeat what I said in my OP---what of all those who lived and died before Jesus? Nice that they were eventually "saved," but in the mean time they had to wallow in hell. Whereas those fortunate enough to have heard of god's escape clause (redemption through faith in Jesus---or however you care to put it) never had to endure the fires of hell at all. AND if those living after Jesus but, for whatever reason were never able to get on board the salvation train, but are nonetheless saved by this "something in place for addressing that fairly" then believing in Christ can't be that important.
And just what kind of work do LDS Christians imagine this to be? And how do they know this to be a fact, through scripture or the Book of Mormon?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
The Book of Mormon is scripture.
