God: Trinity or Unity?

[shunyadragon]

It sounds like you are despairing - strange, as the scriptures offers you the very solution that you should be seeking.

It seems you are looking for a ‘quick fix’ solution to eternal living - like people crave ‘ready meals’ today instead of the long term preparation of healthy food.

But, hey, since you studied so many religions you must realise that there is no short term path to salvation. Would you prefer coming back to life as an insect (to be eaten as soon as you exit your cocoon? What do you return as then!?) or... I don’t know much (anything so)about other salvational religions!

Christianity (no, not the TRINITY nonsense!!) states that there is an all-powerful, all-knowing spirit entity (a God) who created humanity to have [limited, by his level] intelligence, creativity, wisdom, love, compassion, glory... as he himself but in a physical setting (the universe).

We know there is HUGE TRUTH in that expression as it can be seen all around us. It is observable and measurable. We know humanity is ABOVE the base animals and no species of any living being comes close to humanity in those attributes mentioned above.

But here is the thing: This spirit entity PROMISED that humanity is to RULE over the universe, to subdue it to our pleasure (obviously a GODLY pleasure)... Do you agree humanity is making a headway (aaarrrgghhh .... very badly) towards an aspect of that goal? No? Well, that is the point.

We, as humans, have STRAYED from the guidance of the God entity who was DIRECTING us towards the promise. We deluded ourselves into thinking we could do it without the omnipotent guide!!!

However, this omnipotent guide is a master of compassion and he exercises his wisdom in this regard to provide a pathway to SALVATION - BUT he isn’t handing it to us on a plate. It would be WRONG to give us salvation WITHOUT our FAITHFUL COOPERATION. Scriptures shows that when people were healed they were first asked if the BELIEVED (if they had 100% FAITH) that they would be healed. There is (is there) evidence that some who were not 100% in faith were not healed.

And so we have one of the greatest verses (in this context) from one man, Jesus the Christ, who said: ‘Eternal life depends on believing in [the only true Muslim/Jewish/Christian] GOD’ - this is a statement of Faith.

But, you know what? You don’t have to believe anything I just said above. I am not here to persuade you in the faith - I’m here to persuade you to persuade yourself.

The book of Revelation is NECESSARILY swollen with symbolisms to act as a ‘Slow release’ revelation of that which must occur BEFORE the end comes. The knowledge within the symbolisms are for generation to generation so no one of unauthorised ability can say they know the end and claim to be a Nostradamus. Those of authorised ability will not be haughty or boastful in what they reveal IN THEIR TIME SETTING. In any case, like John the Baptist, few will believe them...

You are one such unbeliever!

But scriptures already states this. Would an all knowing God not know that there would be many “Shunyadragons”? Of course he did. God says that there will be a FAMINE (of rain as in the days of Noah, as food in the days of Joseph in Egypt) of FAITH in the last days. Can you see that this faith famine is coming into place world-wide now (it’s not at its zenith yet!)?

A couple of posts ago I requested you ask me something from Revelation that caused you to find it troublesome. But instead of doing so you decided to change the discussion point.

Can I ask if you are afraid that if something from Revelation could be shown to you so as to justify to you it’s presence, you would become a believer? Again, I don’t say I can answer... I just say that I can try for you. Just think of this - if I can’t answer then surely it would harden your idea that Revelation is unfathomable and uninterpretable to the extent of being useless (in your mind!)....

Remember that many others are seeing your response and will decide on the nature of your posts depending on your responses. Honesty or dishonesty are easily seen.

Too much rambling to respond to.

 

[Soapy]

Too much rambling to respond to.

Ah, I detect that you were touched!

The only response requested was that you ask about something in the book of Revelation!!

Well, that is the way of many who are brought to the truth but refuse to acknowledge it.

I asked non-threatening, simple, and potentially life-giving questions of you - I show you light in the darkness of your despair - I offer you a hand in helpfulness ... and you refuse to even interact!!

‘Too much rambling’?

You are really saying, “Oh dear, he’s right so I better shut him down!”

Csn I ask again that you ask for something you say is not understandable from the book of Revelation to be shown to you - potentially - if I can. Just try - there is nothing lost in doing so but maybe plenty to gain!

 

[shunyadragon]

Ah, I detect that you were touched!

The only response requested was that you ask about something in the book of Revelation!!

Well, that is the way of many who are brought to the truth but refuse to acknowledge it.

I asked non-threatening, simple, and potentially life-giving questions of you - I show you light in the darkness of your despair - I offer you a hand in helpfulness ... and you refuse to even interact!!

‘Too much rambling’?

You are really saying, “Oh dear, he’s right so I better shut him down!”

Csn I ask again that you ask for something you say is not understandable from the book of Revelation to be shown to you - potentially - if I can. Just try - there is nothing lost in doing so but maybe plenty to gain!

It is not a problem of understand as written. The problem is the interpretation, wjich is extremely problematic

 

[Soapy]

It is not a problem of understand as written. The problem is the interpretation, wjich is extremely problematic

Ok, interpretation. That’s fine. So go ahead and ask a question and I will see if an interpretation can be madd that satisfies your mind - if not then we can discuss other possibilities ... remember that Revelation is tantamount to a summary of events which has already been prophesied in the old or new testament. However, it is shrouded in mystery awaiting an appropriate age in human time for its revelation by holy spirited individuals.

Remember also that many things are spiritual events and not human physical ones. We won’t ‘see’, for instance, a literal spiritual famine. The whore is a spiritual ‘Woman’, perhaps an adulteration of religious belief. The wounded beast to which man gives his power and authority to is a computer-like system (robotics, AI, Neural network, or something not even yet invented!).

 

[shunyadragon]

Ok, interpretation. That’s fine. So go ahead and ask a question and I will see if an interpretation can be madd that satisfies your mind - if not then we can discuss other possibilities ... remember that Revelation is tantamount to a summary of events which has already been prophesied in the old or new testament. However, it is shrouded in mystery awaiting an appropriate age in human time for its revelation by holy spirited individuals.

Remember also that many things are spiritual events and not human physical ones. We won’t ‘see’, for instance, a literal spiritual famine. The whore is a spiritual ‘Woman’, perhaps an adulteration of religious belief. The wounded beast to which man gives his power and authority to is a computer-like system (robotics, AI, Neural network, or something not even yet invented!).

No one interpretation is certain enough to have much meaning in today's world. As I said before the best interpretation of the Book of Revelation is that it refers to ancient world of Rome as Evil and Christianity as good. Beyond this I only consider it including the rest of the Bible as not much more relevant than any other ancient religion.

As far as claims of spiritual events these are subjective and anecdotal and you could not support this in any way other than what you believe.

 

[Soapy]

No one interpretation is certain enough to have much meaning in today's world.

There is only one true interpretation. Truth is one - not many!

The Christian scriptures (and the book of Revelation is a Christian scripture revelation) storifies a spirit all-knowing all-powerful intelligence (a God) who created a limited physical world (universe) and exposed it to living creatures to exist in it and to occupy it and for one species to dominate and develop it.

In our present time it is evident that only one single ‘garden planet’ has the pleasure of this creative journey: planet Earth. And the species designed to dominate is humanity.

But within humanity there needs to be one overarching RULER. We can evidence the fact that currently the wide diversity of rulership ‘earth-wide’ creates huge problems. The Christian scriptures details that there should and will eventually be one single HOLY GOD-SPIRITED RULER from among humanity. This one ruler will be supported by a plethora of ‘kings and priests’, which sounds to me like a good system of governance.

BUT, the creative plan went awry when the first human person strayed from the plan and every generation onwards by-and-large erred similarly.
The all-knowing spirit entity found it therefore necessary to reset his plan for his creation.

This ‘reset’ we read as the birth of Jesus. The first human was called Adam. Adam was obviously created supernaturally and was therefore completely holy snd sinless. Scriptures describes Jesus as the ‘Last Adam’. Jesus, like Adam, was created supernaturally and was therefore sinless and holy. What should be expected from a ‘reset’?

We read that this same Jesus will be that one holy and god-spirited ruler over all mankind - indeed, the whole universe.

Oh, and talking of ‘whole universe’. We can see already that humanity is reaching out to other planets to occupy them. We are finding the event difficult because we currently have extremely limited lifespan and limited travel facilities in relation to the vast distances between habitable planets.

But the scriptures tells us that in time god-fearing humans will become IMMORTAL and therefore TIME and DISTANCE and RESOURCES will be IRRELEVANT. And therefore we will have ETERNITY at our disposal to fulfil the plan set by the all-knowing intelligence in that the whole of creation will become ‘planet gardens’.

We can, of course, analogolies this by the example garden of Eden in which the all-knowing intelligence instructed the first man, Adam, to replicate this across the whole of planet Earth.

When all this is accomplish then (and during the journey) all things everywhere will acknowledge the all-powerfulness of the all-knowing intelligence.

And just in case you thing this is all religious nonsense. Ask the scientists.... Everything except the Spiritual aspect is confirmed by the scientific community. But, of course, it is completely selfish to assume that the intelligence and creativity of humanity came in and of itself ....without a HIGHER and ALL-KNOWING intelligence!

This, above, is what is demonstrated in part in Revelation.

As I said before the best interpretation of the Book of Revelation is that it refers to ancient world of Rome as Evil and Christianity as good. Beyond this I only consider it including the rest of the Bible as not much more relevant than any other ancient religion.

As far as claims of spiritual events these are subjective and anecdotal and you could not support this in any way other than what you believe.

See above.

Can you demonstrate that ANY PART of what is said above is FALSE? Remember that we are discussing the Christian Scriptures.

Please, be as liberal as you like but SHOW that it is false (please don’t just say, “I don’t believe it”)

 

[shunyadragon]

There is only one true interpretation. Truth is one - not many!

Your neglecting the fallible nature of humans and the fact that there are many different conflicting interpretations where the believers claim their interpretation is the only true interpretation.

<snip>

 

[rational experiences]

When a human preached I am a teacher the teacher aspires to the highest informed intelligence.

Yet any teacher is first an equal human.

A teaching for a teaching.

Reason human inferred I know had life destroyed reasoning.

Human claiming higher intelligence proved they falsified human equality living on God earth.

Reason to teach the not learnt. To learn is by proven wrong.

As God by concept is all righteous.

So a human teaching so called the advised stated God first an earth planet reactive.

Without science being practiced.

So a human knowing that advice owns a plan to leave God earth the holy everything to a human. Not logical in reality.

Yet prove the concept God destructive first.

The basic human advice to an equal human before destructive God inferred inventions.

 

[Soapy]

Your neglecting the fallible nature of humans and the fact that there are many different conflicting interpretations where the believers claim their interpretation is the only true interpretation.

<snip>

So all day long and all night through all you are ever going to answer to any request is: ‘There are many interpretations’?

You aren’t even going to consider the one that is true and faithful?

It seems you are fearful of believing that there is a true interpretation.

A group of math professors get together to consider a theory submitted by a student. Each professor submit their opinions for consideration by the other professors. ... except one!

The exception says that it’s pointless looking at any opinion because they may all differ!

Wonderful!

 

[wellwisher]

Truth can be many things, but the whole truth is one. I can say Joe is a man and you can say Joe was born in the South. These can both be true, with each statement of fact, only part of the entire truth. The debate may come down to which is more relevant to the point being discussed. But the whole truth requires both points of view.

As a geometrical analogy, one can approximate a 3-D sphere with a large number of 2-D circles. Each circle will have a common center; subject of debate, but each is at a slightly different angle, to help fill in the 3-D volume. Each circle and its angle is 2-D truth. However, each is only a part of the full 3-D truth. The circles each present a unique piece of evidence. We need them all to be able to approximate the 3-D ball, since one or two circles may not be enough to know it is a ball in 3-D space.

The left brain processes data more in 2-D; cause and affect and differential thinking, while the right brain is older and is more 3-D; integral thinking such as instinct. Symbols are 3-D concepts that use the right brain. This connection to 3-D is why symbolism is important in the bible and other religious books. They seek 3-D truth and not just one circle of 2-D truth. The truth it seeks is connected to natural human instinct.

Science uses 2-D thinking; cause and affect (x,y), which is why it constantly adds theory as new data appears. With the 3-D truth; (x,y,z) in religion, the 2-D circles can come from many places in space and time, which when all brought together can approximate the 3-D sphere.

Love your enemy is often needed for 3-D or integral thinking, to prevent ignoring 2-D truth that contracts your own piece of the truth, due to personality differences or vanity. That data may be part of the final 3-D truth; polarity of north and south. Love is 3-D since it integrates all types of differences into one; male, female, family, neighbors, countrymen, earthlings. Love provides the schema by which we assemble the different circles of 2-D truth, into the ball of truth; 3-D.

 

[Soapy]

Truth can be many things, but the whole truth is one. I can say Joe is a man and you can say Joe was born in the South. These can both be true, with each statement of fact, only part of the entire truth. The debate may come down to which is more relevant to the point being discussed. But the whole truth requires both points of view.

Thats so funny it doesn’t deserve a response but yet I’m going to give one for the sake of those who can’t see the farsity!

The two points you made are not pertaining to what most likely was the question. Hence ONLY ONE of those answers could be THE TRUTH (as you pointed out as a squibble to your response!) according to THE QUESTION.

OF COURSE, both answers could be true TO DIFFERENT QUESTIONS.

As a geometrical analogy, one can approximate a 3-D sphere with a large number of 2-D circles. Each circle will have a common center; subject of debate, but each is at a slightly different angle, to help fill in the 3-D volume. Each circle and its angle is 2-D truth. However, each is only a part of the full 3-D truth. The circles each present a unique piece of evidence. We need them all to be able to approximate the 3-D ball, since one or two circles may not be enough to know it is a ball in 3-D space.

The left brain processes data more in 2-D; cause and affect and differential thinking, while the right brain is older and is more 3-D; integral thinking such as instinct. Symbols are 3-D concepts that use the right brain. This connection to 3-D is why symbolism is important in the bible and other religious books. They seek 3-D truth and not just one circle of 2-D truth. The truth it seeks is connected to natural human instinct.

Science uses 2-D thinking; cause and affect (x,y), which is why it constantly adds theory as new data appears. With the 3-D truth; (x,y,z) in religion, the 2-D circles can come from many places in space and time, which when all brought together can approximate the 3-D sphere.

You are implying an ‘approximate’ Truth then!

I’m not absolutely sure what geometric picture I’m meant to be seeing but I know this:

• X^n + Y^n =/= Z^n unless n = 2 (i.e. a 2D plane and expressly Integer X,Y,Z, and n)

Love your enemy is often needed for 3-D or integral thinking, to prevent ignoring 2-D truth that contracts your own piece of the truth, due to personality differences or vanity. That data may be part of the final 3-D truth; polarity of north and south. Love is 3-D since it integrates all types of differences into one; male, female, family, neighbors, countrymen, earthlings. Love provides the schema by which we assemble the different circles of 2-D truth, into the ball of truth; 3-D.

Do I take it you are some kind of Math-Wiz?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Or multiplicity? Anything wrong with that?

 

[Soapy]

Or multiplicity? Anything wrong with that?

Unsure what you are referring to!

 

[Aupmanyav]

I firmly believe He's a Unity

Yeah, but why?
Many questions. Is there any? One, three, why not two? Why not more than three?

 

[Soapy]

Yeah, but why?
Many questions. Is there any? One, three, why not two? Why not more than three?

I keep asking Trinitarians why the words, “Us” and “We” should absolutely mean ‘Three’. I’d like them to show some mathematical proof (bet they cannot!)

Moreover, I’ve said it before but no one is hearing: Almighty God was not speaking of a multiplicity if person (or not!) when he told his favoured nation that he was ‘ONE GOD’ but, in fact, that he was to be their ‘ONLY GOD’.

The context of God’s word was that the Israelites were among tribes and nations who believed in ‘A MULTIPLICITY OF GOD’ and in several cases, ‘THREE GODS’.

Almighty God told the Israelites that the world and all within was created and sustained by Him and Him ALONE...’ and that there was “NO OTHER GOD BESIDE(s) him.

False ‘Christians’, in their attempt to convert tribes and nations who believed in multiple Gods found it easier to do so by claiming that the god they were confessing was a THREESOME. This was because these tribes refused, initially, due to their human-god mindset, that such a creation could be accomplished and managed by a SINGLE ENTITY. [/S]

Thus TRINITY was born. And in order to sustain the trinity fallacy it was necessary to obscure and falsify the new scriptures they were presenting. Notice that the Torah (Old Testament) is rarely, if really ever, used to claim or prove that Yahweh God is a trinity. This is because the stoic Jewish nation wholly believed in ONE (and only one) DEITY, whom they call ‘GOD’, “The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob”.

Trinitarians, faced with the truth of their fallacy then had to try to retro-fit their three-some God into the Torah.

They could not alter the Torah because it is so well documented so they force-fitted alternate MEANING to attempt their fallacy. Witness that they adopt a TRUTH and adulterate it in that well known verse from Deuteronomy:
[/S]

• “Hear O Israel, the YHWH thy God is ONE GOD”[/S]

I mean, come on... How much clearer can you get a declaration of an ONLY GOD (re: as opposed to pagan multiplicity of Gods) but yet Trinitarians claim that this verse absolutely is declaring that YHWH GOD is saying he is THREE PERSONS!

‘Sheer delusion’, you scream!! But yet trinity became the greatest Christian theology (I call it ‘Ideology’). Why? Because this way, YHWH will know his children - the children who will not be drawn into the delusion :
[/S]

• “For God will send [pagans] a strong delusion such that they will believe the lie!!”

[/S]
So now you know. This argument about ‘Echad’ is not about ‘Multiplicity’, or ‘Two or three’, but simply that the true believer who righteously desires eternal life should believe that YHWH is:
[/S]

• the [One and] ONLY TRUE GOD (John 17:3)[/S]

When discoursing with trinitarians, the above references should be presented. Check for their responses - they will be very interesting. Don’t expect a capitulation on their part - it’s their job to maintain the lie... but possibly there will be ONE who’s eyes and ears may be opened to the truth!![/S]

 

[Aupmanyav]

I agree that Yahweh may have told Moses that Israelites should worship no God other than him, but not every one in the world is an Israelite. Hindus know many Gods. Some Hindus claim their one God or Goddess is the Supreme, but do acknowledge other Gods. Hindu major Gods are Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesha and Kartikeya (Rama and Krishna are in reality Vishnu only). Hindus also worship Mother Goddesses Durga, Lakshmi, Parvati and Saraswati. Minor Gods and Goddesses are innumerable. Sometimes a God or Goddess has jurisdiction over just one village - they are known as 'Kshetrapala' (protectors of the region). But yes, I am an orthodox Hindu and a strong atheist.

 

[Soapy]

I agree that Yahweh may have told Moses that Israelites should worship no God other than him, but not every one in the world is an Israelite. Hindus know many Gods. Some Hindus claim their one God or Goddess is the Supreme, but do acknowledge other Gods. Hindu major Gods are Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesha and Kartikeya (Rama and Krishna are in reality Vishnu only). Hindus also worship Mother Goddesses Durga, Lakshmi, Parvati and Saraswati. Minor Gods and Goddesses are innumerable. Sometimes a God or Goddess has jurisdiction over just one village - they are known as 'Kshetrapala' (protectors of the region). But yes, I am an orthodox Hindu and a strong atheist.

I’m sorry but I thought the discussion was about Christianity.

No discussion concerning the theologies of different beliefs will ever bear fruit. It will always resort to ‘Mine says’ and ‘yeah but Mine says’. You can see that happening already.

We do have the same in Christianity but that’s simply because there are many who call themselves ‘Christians’ who are anything but. As I pointed out previously, these false christians refuse to acknowledge the truth of what is written in the scriptures even as their version is so absurd as to defy every aspect of reality. I mean, they read the same scriptures in which Jesus states that the Father is the only true God yet they continue to say that Jesus IS GOD (that SAME GOD as the God Jesus just said was the Father ALONE. Well, if that doesn’t present a conundrum then perhaps Jesus telling the Jews that he is NOT GOD but ONLY the Son of God might work...! No, they still say Jesus, while DENYING he called himself ‘God’, WAS GOD!!

And even when scriptures says that Jesus DIED (and therefore the false Christian Jesus-GOD DIED) they continue to say that Jesus ‘DID NOT DIE’... So I ask why we celebrate EASTER (When Jesus DIED) and ASCENSION day, etc, (When Jesus ASCENDED into Heaven) as well as celebrating Jesus BEING RAISED FROM THE DEAD in between..... they do not answer!

But, of course, telling you all of this is pointless unless it is a matter of you learning the truth concerning Christian belief.

As a Christian we generally do not engage in discussion about belief in multiple Gods. But we do have this ‘trinity’ problem in which, false Christians claim ‘a multiplicity IN ONE GOD’... which is what I am opposing as an ideology.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I’m sorry but I thought the discussion was about Christianity.
No discussion concerning the theologies of different beliefs will ever bear fruit. It will always resort to ‘Mine says’ and ‘yeah but Mine says’.
As I pointed out previously, these false Christians refuse to acknowledge the truth of what is written in the scriptures even as their version is so absurd as to defy every aspect of reality.
But, of course, telling you all of this is pointless unless it is a matter of you learning the truth concerning Christian belief.

The OP never said that.
IMHO, you are right there.
Not their fault. The scriptures themselves say absurd things.
I am devoted to truth, but Christian truth unfortunately fails my scrutiny.

 

[Soapy]

The OP never said that.
IMHO, you are right there.
Not there fault. The scriptures themselves say absurd things.
I am devoted to truth, but Christian truth unfortunately fails my scrutiny.

Aupmanyav, I am not surprised that from an external belief Christianity fails scrutiny. This is exactly what I said to you earlier: Trinitarian ‘Christians’ have adulterated the truth of the scriptures and presented it as THEIR truth and, like over-sugared and over-salted foods today, the people have swallowed it down hurriedly and greedily... to their long term detriment.

I understand that you do not believe in Christianity because of what you see as unbelievability in it.

But can I challenge you in even one way and ask you to present even one thing that makes you feel the way you do.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Existence of God, Angels, Satan, Adam and Eve, Flood, Immaculate conception, Resurrection, etc.