cataway
Well-Known Member
as i said you should really stay out of the book of Revelation
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God: Trinity or Unity?
- Thread starter BenFranklinFan
- Start date
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
The account in Revelation concerning whom is seated on the throne (who is in full power and authority) is clear and concise: it is YAHWEH, the Father.
Jesus Christ is the ‘Lamb as though slaughtered’ and is IN FRONT AND CENTER of the throne.
The account also states that the Lamb CAME AND TOOK THE SCROLL from the one seated on the throne.
I can hardly believe that anyone who is in truthful debate could ever claim that Jesus is seated on the throne.
There must be some hardened disobedient system of understanding that sees anything different.
Also, at another point, BOTH the Lamb AND He who is seated on the throne (clearly, therefore, two persons identified) are BOTH ‘Praised, Glorified, and Honored’ (paraphrased). Yes, BOTH are so given the highest accolades.
But ‘Praise, Glory, and Honor’ ARE NOT WORSHIP. These are certainly INCLUDED IN WORSHIP, but are not themselves the absolute measure.
Note that in the next part there is a fourth element stated: WORSHIP.
The verse states that this WORSHIP is given ONLY to the one seated on the throne.
We can ALWAYS ‘Praise’ a person, even an animal...
We can ALWAYS ‘Glorify’ a person, even an animal...
We can ALWAYS ‘Honor’ a person, even an animal...
But we must only ‘WORSHIP’ God!
Jesus Christ is the ‘Lamb as though slaughtered’ and is IN FRONT AND CENTER of the throne.
The account also states that the Lamb CAME AND TOOK THE SCROLL from the one seated on the throne.
I can hardly believe that anyone who is in truthful debate could ever claim that Jesus is seated on the throne.
There must be some hardened disobedient system of understanding that sees anything different.
Also, at another point, BOTH the Lamb AND He who is seated on the throne (clearly, therefore, two persons identified) are BOTH ‘Praised, Glorified, and Honored’ (paraphrased). Yes, BOTH are so given the highest accolades.
But ‘Praise, Glory, and Honor’ ARE NOT WORSHIP. These are certainly INCLUDED IN WORSHIP, but are not themselves the absolute measure.
Note that in the next part there is a fourth element stated: WORSHIP.
The verse states that this WORSHIP is given ONLY to the one seated on the throne.
We can ALWAYS ‘Praise’ a person, even an animal...
We can ALWAYS ‘Glorify’ a person, even an animal...
We can ALWAYS ‘Honor’ a person, even an animal...
But we must only ‘WORSHIP’ God!
101G
Well-Known Member
I believe too much is made of the interpretation of the Book of Revelation. The further away from the time it was written concerning Rome and Early Christianity the less meaningful the interpretation.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
The book of Revelation prophesies that which is to come in a way that hides the reality from those who would wrongly purpose themselves as latter day ‘Nostradamases’.
Jesus, from his heavenly abode, sends a revelation FROM HIS SPIRIT FATHER to mankind concerning what will take place in the created world based on a spiritual plane. It is the haze of this spiritual plane that many (nearly all) cannot penetrate and therefore get frustrated, not realising that it is their lack of true-Godly spiritual insight, as to the reason for turning away from the torrent (and glory) to come... hence a spiritual famine, or spiritual rainlessness, is at hand!
... After all, if the people in the days of Noah had believed Noah then more would have been saved or, if Pharoah had NOT believed Joseph then thousands more would have died!
The acid test for humanity is toward ‘those who have ears to hear and eyes to see’ and ‘trim their lamps’ in spiritual preparation for the bridegroom.
The problem is that based on the anecdotal subjective vague nature of the Book of Revelation believers come up with many different conflicting interpretation of the Book of Revelation, and your 'acid test' gets you nowhere in coming up with a coherent interpretation.
101G
Well-Known Member
GINOLJC, to all.
first thanks for the reply, second, that's your opinion, correct. what about the Holy Ghost who will guide us in all truths? John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."
so we cannot relay on the Holy Spirit for revelation KNOWLEDGE, and UNDERSTANDING of the book?
I must disagree.
thanks for your opinion.
PICJAG, 101G
Not necessarily my opinion, just the factual observation that many believers come up with conflicting diverse 'opinions as to the interpretation of not only the Book of Revelation, but the rest of the Bible. Both your and my interpretation and 'opinion' represent only a few of tens of thousands. Because of these diverse and conflicting interpretations and 'opinions' how can we know, relying on subjective communication with what is claimed to be the 'Holy Spirit' to determine what the correct one is?
Actually I have not expressed my opinion specifically yet.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I never said I had an interpretation, did I? The scriptures tells us clearly that [true god inspired spiritual] interpretation is not given to all - but only to a few. I do not class myself as one of those few.
What I said was that we should not be blinding our eyes nor hardening our ears against those who can god-inspiringly interpret it. Many naysayers are naysayers simply from their inability to be fortunate enough to be god-inspired interpreters - that is selfish and irrational behaviour.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Point of order: you used both ‘Holy Ghost’ and ‘Holy Spirit’ in your response... There is no such thing as ‘Holy Ghost’.
‘A’ Ghost is “a disembodied Spirit”. This implies that the spirit was once ensconced in a body but now is free of it. The term is medieval and coined to terrify and frighten people who could neither read nor write but head only what was spoken to them. White swirling Mist from a stream in the early morning was said to be a ghost especially when accompanied by strange noises, usually animals or insects or most likely WIND. In a building, ghosts were supposed to have walked around making creaking noises and WIND noises ... supposedly a DISEMBODIED DEAD person with some grievance against the household (... load of blarney!!)
‘The’ Holy Spirit, on the other hand, is the power and authority of the almighty God: the Father. It is the ACTIONING force of the Father.
It is worthwhile diminishing and in fact eliminating the use of the words, ‘Holy Ghost’ and promote the words, ‘Holy Spirit’.
You indeed never said you had an interpretation, but in deed you have an interpretation and one of many diverse and conflicting interpretations of the Book of Revelation. I am not talking about naysayers or skeptics I am talking about believers in Christianity.
cataway
Well-Known Member
no one has correctly explained it to you
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Anyone reading any narrative will mindfully create an interpretation - that is true and absolutely so. But that is not what this part of the discussion is concerning.
What it is concerning is an interpretation that an individual has and then teaches that as though it is a god-given interpretation. Also, those who then cannot fathom an interpretation that suits their belief are drawn into poo-pooing what they read and claim the whole narrative is irrelevant (why are they reading it then?) or uninterpretable (their frustration at seeing the spiritual truth of what they are reading).
As I said (and not me, alone) interpretation is a god-given talent. A person who is not a theoretical mathematician does not take up a theoretical math paper and poo-poos the turgid and complexed formulae contained within. Simply, they are not equipped to interpret the writings. Why is this example not seeable in the Revelation ‘papers’?
Equally, we who are not grounded in the god-given talent of spiritual interpretation could still see the overview of what is written even if we cannot see the fine print. We can still see the generality of the math formulae even if we don’t understand the finer workings.... we BELIEVE by faith that it is what the true interpreter says it is.
True, the interpreter could be false. But it is certain that such a false interpreter will trip themselves up sooner or later.... “Caveat Audientis” (Listener Beware). Scriptures tells us to ‘Test the Spirit... not all spirits are sent by God’ (paraphrased)
In my opinion it is inconceivable that Almighty God should present his testimony through his son and not provide concluding overview of what he intentions for the end times just as he provided overviews of mid term times: overthrow of Jerusalem, recovery of the Jews, coming of the messiah, service and death of the messiah, rebirth and raising up to Heaven of the fulfilled one... then what is to come afterwards onwards to the end.
Do you think this is unrealistic of an all knowing God?
For sure, even without knowing the fine or absolute details of an interpretation, Noah built the Ark.... not knowing the day nor the hour but believed by faith the broader account relayed to him by almighty God.
And so should we!
God is an All knowing God, but humans are fallible humans and lack that capability, Everybody trips up eventually, and no fallible human is capable of the degree of 'God given talent' you claim. History is a witness of the many diverse conflicting claims like you are making of scripture that is documented as a edited redacted writings with no known original copies, and unknown authorship compiled long after the events took place,
Considering the diverse religions throughout history of humanity of hundreds of thousands of years it is apparent that God did not reveal to humanity. All religions reflect more the very human limited cultural view of God throughout history, and even in Christianity there is great division without agreement, and everyone like you believe their belief is the true belief.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
For you: As you wish.
“We believe” is a statement of Faith. And the true Christian believes in the true Faith of what is written in truth of that Faith.
But we are taught not to lean on BLIND FAITH. We must learn and investigate the source, body, and the product of that Faith - and if it is cohesive then it become TRUE FAITH.
—————
Im not going to say I can interpret for you as you would desire to want but can you pick one point or scripture that appears puzzling to you and provided you with the ammunition to dismiss that part of the book of Revelation.
What I mean is that a summary thesis is almost inevitable based on the body content of the writing. So, therefore, all parts of the book of Revelation must be linked in part or whole to the old and New Testament of the Christian scriptures.
Would you be willing to explore an element of Revelation and see if it fits any part of what the O&N Testaments say?
Just to prove to yourself - have a go.... maybe someone will have some ‘god-given’ interpretation for you - to consider.
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There is no proof for beliefs based on faith,
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I have studied and explored the Bible, Tanakh and other scriptures of the world for over fifty years. Nothing you have posted offered anything new.
There are no proofs for beliefs based on faith. In fact the ancient scriptures of the Bible have the least to offer than found in all the religions of the world.
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Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
It sounds like you are despairing - strange, as the scriptures offers you the very solution that you should be seeking.
It seems you are looking for a ‘quick fix’ solution to eternal living - like people crave ‘ready meals’ today instead of the long term preparation of healthy food.
But, hey, since you studied so many religions you must realise that there is no short term path to salvation. Would you prefer coming back to life as an insect (to be eaten as soon as you exit your cocoon? What do you return as then!?) or... I don’t know much (anything so)about other salvational religions!
Christianity (no, not the TRINITY nonsense!!) states that there is an all-powerful, all-knowing spirit entity (a God) who created humanity to have [limited, by his level] intelligence, creativity, wisdom, love, compassion, glory... as he himself but in a physical setting (the universe).
We know there is HUGE TRUTH in that expression as it can be seen all around us. It is observable and measurable. We know humanity is ABOVE the base animals and no species of any living being comes close to humanity in those attributes mentioned above.
But here is the thing: This spirit entity PROMISED that humanity is to RULE over the universe, to subdue it to our pleasure (obviously a GODLY pleasure)... Do you agree humanity is making a headway (aaarrrgghhh .... very badly) towards an aspect of that goal? No? Well, that is the point.
We, as humans, have STRAYED from the guidance of the God entity who was DIRECTING us towards the promise. We deluded ourselves into thinking we could do it without the omnipotent guide!!!
However, this omnipotent guide is a master of compassion and he exercises his wisdom in this regard to provide a pathway to SALVATION - BUT he isn’t handing it to us on a plate. It would be WRONG to give us salvation WITHOUT our FAITHFUL COOPERATION. Scriptures shows that when people were healed they were first asked if the BELIEVED (if they had 100% FAITH) that they would be healed. There is (is there) evidence that some who were not 100% in faith were not healed.
And so we have one of the greatest verses (in this context) from one man, Jesus the Christ, who said: ‘Eternal life depends on believing in [the only true Muslim/Jewish/Christian] GOD’ - this is a statement of Faith.
But, you know what? You don’t have to believe anything I just said above. I am not here to persuade you in the faith - I’m here to persuade you to persuade yourself.
The book of Revelation is NECESSARILY swollen with symbolisms to act as a ‘Slow release’ revelation of that which must occur BEFORE the end comes. The knowledge within the symbolisms are for generation to generation so no one of unauthorised ability can say they know the end and claim to be a Nostradamus. Those of authorised ability will not be haughty or boastful in what they reveal IN THEIR TIME SETTING. In any case, like John the Baptist, few will believe them...
You are one such unbeliever!
But scriptures already states this. Would an all knowing God not know that there would be many “Shunyadragons”? Of course he did. God says that there will be a FAMINE (of rain as in the days of Noah, as food in the days of Joseph in Egypt) of FAITH in the last days. Can you see that this faith famine is coming into place world-wide now (it’s not at its zenith yet!)?
A couple of posts ago I requested you ask me something from Revelation that caused you to find it troublesome. But instead of doing so you decided to change the discussion point.
Can I ask if you are afraid that if something from Revelation could be shown to you so as to justify to you it’s presence, you would become a believer? Again, I don’t say I can answer... I just say that I can try for you. Just think of this - if I can’t answer then surely it would harden your idea that Revelation is unfathomable and uninterpretable to the extent of being useless (in your mind!)....
Remember that many others are seeing your response and will decide on the nature of your posts depending on your responses. Honesty or dishonesty are easily seen.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Men as humans thought for a human choice science.
Knew the nature garden existed formed before their own life human.
The Bible stated humans evicted from life living in the nature garden. Due to choice science.
You know you are not a tree. Wood.
Science discussed a theme I think water animals came onto the land.
You are a living human on land living after a pre existing garden.
What does human science really claim?
That it knows as a man human thinker what information. In reality?
Thinking says a man is a father who was a baby as a son. Baby to man father two selves owning one life.
Conscious self discussing self idealism.
What did a man father human quote?
A third ideal spirit form in science gases.
As three terms of his self idealising presence in life as a self.
Man human.
As a baby son cannot think as a man adult. Hence is innocent of his man father's evil.
A self summarised idealised reason why self was hurt.
For never has a baby to man adult life ever lived as the first human father.
A concept about his one self life.
Pondered.
Yet when you talk ghost spirits you knew it was not yours. You were living inside of the host. Gas spirit heavens.
So Trinity a conceptual teaching inferred.
When you conceptualized anti you said so a spirit body is also inside mass radiation UFO condition thinking of not yourself.
How you said a spirit owned controlled UFO mass. As like a human is inside of its heavens inside mass of is always another body. The spoken language.
We speak as a human inside our host. Heavens.
We can only be a human by a concept about three. Why it was taught as human spiritual consciousness for human agreement. Versus anti evil thought cause effect UFO alien status.
It owned it's purpose in teaching.
Knew the nature garden existed formed before their own life human.
The Bible stated humans evicted from life living in the nature garden. Due to choice science.
You know you are not a tree. Wood.
Science discussed a theme I think water animals came onto the land.
You are a living human on land living after a pre existing garden.
What does human science really claim?
That it knows as a man human thinker what information. In reality?
Thinking says a man is a father who was a baby as a son. Baby to man father two selves owning one life.
Conscious self discussing self idealism.
What did a man father human quote?
A third ideal spirit form in science gases.
As three terms of his self idealising presence in life as a self.
Man human.
As a baby son cannot think as a man adult. Hence is innocent of his man father's evil.
A self summarised idealised reason why self was hurt.
For never has a baby to man adult life ever lived as the first human father.
A concept about his one self life.
Pondered.
Yet when you talk ghost spirits you knew it was not yours. You were living inside of the host. Gas spirit heavens.
So Trinity a conceptual teaching inferred.
When you conceptualized anti you said so a spirit body is also inside mass radiation UFO condition thinking of not yourself.
How you said a spirit owned controlled UFO mass. As like a human is inside of its heavens inside mass of is always another body. The spoken language.
We speak as a human inside our host. Heavens.
We can only be a human by a concept about three. Why it was taught as human spiritual consciousness for human agreement. Versus anti evil thought cause effect UFO alien status.
It owned it's purpose in teaching.