God: Trinity or Unity?

[37818]

As far as Moses goes God spoke to him. The above citation does not support what you claim. You here does not refer to Moses.

[Friend, Good to see you here]

If one understands the Son of God is God on behalf of His Father, then one understands God did speak to Moses. John 1:18, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." So we find in John 5:37, "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." And also, John 14:6, ". . . Jesus saith . . . no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. . . ."

 

[37818]

what scriptures that you have to back up this unity?

101G.

Deuteronomy 6:4, ". . . Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: . . ."

Mark 12:29, "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: . . ."

Isaiah 43:10-11, "
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."

Titus 1:4, ". . . from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour."

Genesis 12:7, ". . . And the LORD appeared unto Abram, . . ."

John 1:18, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Isaiah 6:5, ". . . Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. . . ."

John 12:39-41, ". . . because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him." Isaiah 6:9.

 

[cataway]

Deuteronomy 6:4, ". . . Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: . . ."

Mark 12:29, "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: . . ."

Isaiah 43:10-11, "
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."

Titus 1:4, ". . . from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour."

Genesis 12:7, ". . . And the LORD appeared unto Abram, . . ."

John 1:18, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Isaiah 6:5, ". . . Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. . . ."

John 12:39-41, ". . . because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him." Isaiah 6:9.

unity?? as in teamwork ?

 

[37818]

unity?? as in teamwork ?

That and the Persons are the one and the very same God.

 

[shunyadragon]

[Friend, Good to see you here]

If one understands the Son of God is God on behalf of His Father, then one understands God did speak to Moses. John 1:18, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." So we find in John 5:37, "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." And also, John 14:6, ". . . Jesus saith . . . no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. . . ."

Very poor justification for the Trinity.

 

[cataway]

That and the Persons are the one and the very same God.

that would be a god with a split personality

 

[Soapy]

that would be a god with a split personality

Do they believe that the Father is all powerful? Yes!

So if the Father is all powerful what use use or purpose is there for TWO MORE all powerfuls? None!

Nonetheless, trinity believers are erring badly in their interpretation and belief of ‘One God’.

Yhwh saw his beloved nation mingling among pagans who believed in a myriad of Gods, each of which controlled one or more aspect of the created world.

Yhwh told Moses that this beloved nation should believe that it was HE, YHEH, alone who controlled ALL ASPECTS of the created world.

This is what was said to the Hebrews / Israelites... “Hear, o Israel, YHWH your GOD is [your ONLY] God.”

Please use this revelation of truth in your arguments because it is the ONLY argument - the truth is ONE TRUTH... not a multiple (or unity) of many!!!

Arguing over the definition or meaning of ‘Echad’ simply obscures the point of what Yhwh said and, in fact, jams the door open for erroneous trinitarian viewpoints.

Keep this in mind - always: YHWH said his nation should worship ONE GOD and ONE GOD ALONE, and that SOLE GOD was HE, YHWH.

This does not leave room for any multiplicity of ONE as that would be ludicrous. Yhwh desired that his people NOT worship multiple Gods: “The Lord your God is one God”. This means ‘Your LAWGIVER, your RULER, your MONARCH, your KING, your SAVIOUR, .... YOUR GOD..... is NOT MULTIPLE (persons) but ONE ONLY’.

Remember that the Israelites were among nations who believed in GODS APLENTY... The Egyptians worshipped at least THREE INDIVIDUAL GODS (SPIRIT RULERS, SPIRIT LAWGIVERS, SPIRIT MONARCHS). Moses knew this fully because he grew up in the center of the Egyptian human rulers and also the Israelites saw and heard it all around them. When Moses was told to bring the news of the wilderness worship he knew the Israelites would question WHICH OF THE SPIRIT RULERS (GODS) had instructed him to tell them this. At this time YHWH had not given them HIS NAME and they had only known him as “GOD” (‘God’ is a modern word (German) so look back to the Hebrew word). The Israelites knew the NAMES of all the Egyptian GODS and and it was only their demand for the NAME of the GOD that Moses claimed spike to him about worship in the wilderness that led to the Israelite GOD declaring HIS NAME to HIS PEOPLE (He DIDNT need a NAME before as he was their ONLY believed on SPIRIT RULER). This GOD declared that HE was ETERNAL and IMMUTABLE. Being such meant that He JUST WAS, JUST IS, and, JUST EVER BE, as He is. This is the meaning of ‘YHWH’.

Now, think about TRINITY? Trinity shows a SPLIT, a CHANGE, a MUTATION, in the so-called “Godhead” - a term never used in the scriptures, a wholly disputable mistranslation of “Holy Spirit”:

• ‘The Father was pleased that [the son] should be filled with ....the Holy Spirit’.

We all know that this referred to Jesus being anointed with THE HOLY SPIRIT at his baptism at the river Jordan.

Now think about that as well! If Jesus BECOMES GOD (Trinity claims jesus was filled with the Godhead - Godhead which they claim means ‘power of three persons of God’!!) then WHAT WAS JESUS BEFORE he was filled with ‘GODHEAD’?

I warrant that you will get no valid, useful, let alone credible, replies to that.... I never have!!

 

[Soapy]

excerpt from ‘gotQuestion’ (Subordination in the Trinity)

What the Bible does teach is an economic (or relational) subordination within the Trinity. The three Persons of the triune Godhead voluntarily submit to each other respecting the roles They perform in creation and salvation. So, the Father sent the Son into the world (1 John 4:10). These roles are never reversed in Scripture: the Son never sends the Father. Likewise, the Holy Spirit is sent by Jesus and “proceeds from the Father” to testify of Christ (John 14:26; 15:26). And Jesus perfectly submitted His will to the Father’s (Luke 22:42; Hebrews 10:7).

I don’t know if anyone will reply to this point but does anyone notice that this ‘economic subordination’ is ONE WAY ONLY... yet the writer claims that all three persons of the (so-called) trinity “SUBMIT TO EACH OTHER”.

Can someone point out from the extract where this ‘each other’ is shown?

I would warn EVERYONE who tries to justify trinity by referring to anything written on ‘gotQuestion’ to PRAY FIRST TO THE FATHER in the name of Jesus Christ as Satan is the gatekeeper to that website (and also to ‘CARM’).

You are warned!!!

 

[Soapy]

That and the Persons are the one and the very same God.

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is a Team?

Which one is the Team Leader?

Is your God one person? (I know we not speaking ‘as like human’... that would be ‘bringing God down to earth’)!

 

[Soapy]

[Friend, Good to see you here]

If one understands the Son of God is God on behalf of His Father, then one understands God did speak to Moses. John 1:18, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." So we find in John 5:37, "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." And also, John 14:6, ". . . Jesus saith . . . no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. . . ."

Jesus DECLARED the Father many times and stated it absolutely. John SUMMARISED in the last opening verses that Jesus declared the Father unto mankind just as Jesus expressed it to the apostles:

• “Father, I have given them the word you gave me to give to them and they received it”

This is further declared in Rev 1:1 where John again summarises in the very first verse:

• “God gave Jesus the revelation ...”

If Jesus is Almighty God then how is it stated, and you believe it, that ALMIGHTY GOD gave ALMIGHTY GOD a revelation when ALMIGHTY GOD is omniscient?

And in your answer, could you please keep off ‘economic subordination’ (God as a subordinate servant God) cos it doesn’t work. And bare in mind that you will need to justify this error of almighty God on the judgement day to Jesus Christ!

 

[37818]

Very poor justification for the Trinity.

Please explain why you think so.

 

[37818]

that would be a god with a split personality

I and other Trinitarians do not see it that way. The Trinity by its own definition are three distinct Persons, God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are the One God.

 

[shunyadragon]

Please explain why you think so.

Trinity is not specifically mentioned nor defined in the OT. The unique oneness of God is One and only One true God is theme of the OT, and in harmony with the Torah, and what Jews believe..

In the OT clearly specifies that; 'God cannot have a son.'

 

[Soapy]

I and other Trinitarians do not see it that way. The Trinity by its own definition are three distinct Persons, God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are the One God.

Then you are not worshipping the God of the Israelites.

You quite rightly define TRINITY as [whatever] and you (plural / Trinitarians) are entitled to believe what you like BUT the discussion here is concerning the ONE and ONLY God of the Israelites.... the GOD that Jesus called, ‘His Father’, as Revelations states:

Rev 1:4

• “John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,

‘He who ... was, is, and is to come... spirits [in front of] his throne.’

Jesus is never shown as seated on a throne with seven spirits in front of him... only Almighty God: the Father is shown so seated (see Daniel and Isaiah)

Rev 1:5:

• “... and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,..”

‘...AND FROM Jesus Christ....’. Almighty God: the Father, did not spill his blood for us because a Spirit Being has no blood.

It is clear, isn’t it, that verses 4 and 5 identifies TWO PERSONS, ONE of whom is Almighty God: the Father, and the OTHER is Jesus Christ. Quite clearly then, Jesus is NOT Almighty God.

Rev 1:6:

• “... and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

‘... to serve his [Jesus Christ’s] God and Father...’

This again, shows that absolute SERVITUDE will STILL be to Jesus’ GOD AND FATHER!

Jesus will be our human KING on the ethereal earthly throne of his human ancestral Father, David.

If you believe differently then please show your view.

 

[37818]

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is a Team?

Which one is the Team Leader?

Is your God one person? (I know we not speaking ‘as like human’... that would be ‘bringing God down to earth’)!

It would be fair to say God the Father is the team leader, John 5:18-19.

 

[37818]

Trinity is not specifically mentioned nor defined in the OT. The unique oneness of God is One and only One true God is theme of the OT, and in harmony with the Torah, and what Jews believe..

It is the same as part of the trinity understanding, John 5:23-24, John 17:3.

In the OT clearly specifies that; 'God cannot have a son.'

Where? Proverbs 30:4.

 

[cataway]

It would be fair to say God the Father is the team leader, John 5:18-19.

more like team owner

 

[Soapy]

Trinity is not specifically mentioned nor defined in the OT. The unique oneness of God is One and only One true God is theme of the OT, and in harmony with the Torah, and what Jews believe..

In the OT clearly specifies that; 'God cannot have a son.'

Trinity is not specifically mentioned nor defined in the OT.

Trinity is not mentioned at all. There is nothing of ‘specifically’ nor ‘not defined’ in any verse in any book in the Torah or Christian scriptures.

Concerning “Unique oneness” of YHWH...
Why do you say this as if there is something strange that YHWH is ONE?

The trinitarian ERROR is in trying to claim that YHWH is a multiple person(age?) of three. This is a complete nonsense.

YHWH claimed he was THE ONLY GOD that his favoured nation should worship.

The ‘uniqueness’ is that all other nations worshipped MULTIPLE NUMBER OF GODS but the Israelites were to worship ONLY ONE.

 

[101G]

and how would you describe your self if some one is better that your self?

Not better, but EQUAL, as Phil 2:6 states.
101G.

 

[101G]

Deuteronomy 6:4, ". . . Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: . . ."

well you made my point, for the term "ONE", here is the Hebrew word,
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

take notice of definition #2. that's why God, himself, is an H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym, because he's the First, and the Last of himself, without ends. not a trinity of three, but an Ordinal of TWO.

101G