God versus Country

[an anarchist]

I see people on RF wonder aloud why there is a lack of secularism in societies and governments. I think the answer is that people put "God" over "Secularism" i.e. country.

Debate point: Should you prioritize God/religion over political secularism?

Poll question for the religious: Do you prioritize religious beliefs or secular political principles?

Republican politicians appeal to Christians. Trump is an easy example.

Trump says he'll defend Christianity from 'radical left' that seek to 'tear down crosses'

Trump spoke at the National Religious Broadcasters International Christian Media Convention on Thursday night. He says that "every communist regime throughout history has tried to stamp out the churches," claiming that the "radical left" wants "to tear down crosses where they can, and cover them...

www.google.com

He promise to "defend" Christianity. I don't think he means through secular means, and I don't think that is how his supporters understand it either.

I've been in Christian church. The pastors I've listened to where political and Republican. The pastor would say that the founding fathers were Christians who founded a Christian nation, so America should remain Christian.

From a Christian perspective, putting God over Country/secularism makes sense. God is most important, even more important than country. What is of most importance is converting others to the faith. Am I wrong? I don't think so. This is at least true with the churches I've been to.

So this is why I think we see a lack of secularism now. I think it is obvious. At least within the context of Christianity in American politics, Christians don't want a secular nation; they want a Christian nation.

So, religious people, I ask the question of whether you put your God belief over secularism. I ask because I think it is a good illustration of why there is a seemingly lack of secularism in some places.

Do you not put your belief in Christ or whoever above all else? Are you not commanded by the Bible to put Christ above all things?

 

[JustGeorge]

My religious beliefs are much more important to me than politics.

However, my path is personal, and I don't believe in shoving it down other's throats.

Also, my path is not Christian, so much of what people think of as 'religion' in this context isn't applicable.

 

[Spice]

My religious belief is founded in Christianity, but I'm no longer considered a Christian. I was born and reared in the United States, but my ancestors came from many places, and I feel their presence in who I am. I believe in freedom and community, and in the journey towards global oneness.

So how does that fit into your OP question?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't recognize a "secular" vs "religious" sphere of things. That's a Christian invention.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Debate point: Should you prioritize God/religion over political secularism?

I don't find "political secularism" to be cognitively meaningful, much less useful. Consider, for example, Leviticus 19:33-34 and the eugenics movement.

 

[Madsaac]

Yeah people have the right to believe in their god and religion but if it interferes with 'good' governance of that country, that's when there is a problem.

It seems, in general that countries (Western) with the least amount of interference from religion, are the happiest and most prosperous.

Coincidence? I think not.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Interesting question. To begin to answer it, you need to recognise that this is a peculiarly American problem. European politics are increasingly secular, that’s been the trend for centuries, including in Italy, the geographical centre of the Roman Catholic Church.

So a pertinent question might be, why is the USA, whose constitution includes separation of church and state as a founding principle, travelling in the opposite direction to the developed world? Does this have anything to do with the relationship Americans in general tend to have with government? That you traditionally do not trust government, and therefore have scant respect for your own country’s institutions and traditions?

Your country is a very odd place, from a European perspective btw. Sometimes it helps to try and see yourselves as others see you.

 

[The Hammer]

I'm religious, my religious views impact the way a see and interact with the world. Which in turn affects how I vote and which political policy I care about.

That's just how people work. (sub religion for worldview or philosophy or what have you if need be).

 

[Madsaac]

Interesting question. To begin to answer it, you need to recognise that this is a peculiarly American problem. European politics are increasingly secular, that’s been the trend for centuries, including in Italy, the geographical centre of the Roman Catholic Church.

Lets pray that the rest of the world follows

 

[RestlessSoul]

Lets pray that the rest of the world follows

Amen to that.

I’m very interested to see what happens in Iran, where the clerics’ grip on power has looked precarious for some time. Ironically
the US, with her aggression towards Iran, is probably among the Islamic Republic’s best supporters.

 

[Trailblazer]

So this is why I think we see a lack of secularism now. I think it is obvious. At least within the context of Christianity in American politics, Christians don't want a secular nation; they want a Christian nation.

The last thing I want is a Christian nation, but I won't go into the reasons why on this post.

So, religious people, I ask the question of whether you put your God belief over secularism. I ask because I think it is a good illustration of why there is a seemingly lack of secularism in some places.

As a Baha'i, I do not have to choose between God and politics, since Baha'is are instructed not to get involved in politics or belong to any political party. We are encouraged to vote, but we are supposed to vote for the candidate that we believe is most qualified.

“The Faith which this order serves, safeguards and promotes is … essentially supernatural, supranational, entirely non-political, non-partisan, and diametrically opposed to any policy or school of thought that seeks to exalt any particular race, class or nation. It is free from any form of ecclesiasticism, has neither priesthood nor rituals, and is supported exclusively by voluntary contributions made by its avowed adherents. Though loyal to their respective governments, though imbued with the love of their own country, and anxious to promote at all times, its best interests, the followers of the Bahá’í Faith, nevertheless, viewing mankind as one entity, and profoundly attached to its vital interests, will not hesitate to subordinate every particular interest, be it personal, regional or national, to the over-riding interests of the generality of mankind, knowing full well that in a world of interdependent peoples and nations the advantage of the part is best to be reached by the advantage of the whole, and that no lasting result can be achieved by any of the component parts if the general interests of the entity itself are neglected….”

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages v-vii

 

[Secret Chief]

I see people on RF wonder aloud why there is a lack of secularism in societies and governments. I think the answer is that people put "God" over "Secularism" i.e. country.

Debate point: Should you prioritize God/religion over political secularism?

Poll question for the religious: Do you prioritize religious beliefs or secular political principles?

Republican politicians appeal to Christians. Trump is an easy example.

Trump says he'll defend Christianity from 'radical left' that seek to 'tear down crosses'

Trump spoke at the National Religious Broadcasters International Christian Media Convention on Thursday night. He says that "every communist regime throughout history has tried to stamp out the churches," claiming that the "radical left" wants "to tear down crosses where they can, and cover them...

www.google.com

He promise to "defend" Christianity. I don't think he means through secular means, and I don't think that is how his supporters understand it either.

I've been in Christian church. The pastors I've listened to where political and Republican. The pastor would say that the founding fathers were Christians who founded a Christian nation, so America should remain Christian.

From a Christian perspective, putting God over Country/secularism makes sense. God is most important, even more important than country. What is of most importance is converting others to the faith. Am I wrong? I don't think so. This is at least true with the churches I've been to.

So this is why I think we see a lack of secularism now. I think it is obvious. At least within the context of Christianity in American politics, Christians don't want a secular nation; they want a Christian nation.

So, religious people, I ask the question of whether you put your God belief over secularism. I ask because I think it is a good illustration of why there is a seemingly lack of secularism in some places.

Do you not put your belief in Christ or whoever above all else? Are you not commanded by the Bible to put Christ above all things?

I couldn't meaningfully separate the two, hence my lack of vote!

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't find "political secularism" to be cognitively meaningful, much less useful. Consider, for example, Leviticus 19:33-34 and the eugenics movement.

Beautiful! To treat others with love and kindness whether friend or stranger. Passages such as this enrich any nation or government. Live and let live. Teachings such as this would have us living in peace.

 

[Trailblazer]

Beautiful! To treat others with love and kindness whether friend or stranger. Passages such as this enrich any nation or government. Live and let live. Teachings such as this would have us living in peace.

Everyone should not be treated with love and kindness.

“O ye beloved of the Lord! The Kingdom of God is founded upon equity and justice, and also upon mercy, compassion, and kindness to every living soul. Strive ye then with all your heart to treat compassionately all humankind—except for those who have some selfish, private motive, or some disease of the soul. Kindness cannot be shown the tyrant, the deceiver, or the thief, because, far from awakening them to the error of their ways, it maketh them to continue in their perversity as before. No matter how much kindliness ye may expend upon the liar, he will but lie the more, for he believeth you to be deceived, while ye understand him but too well, and only remain silent out of your extreme compassion.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 158-160

 

[Spice]

Everyone should not be treated with love and kindness.

“O ye beloved of the Lord! The Kingdom of God is founded upon equity and justice, and also upon mercy, compassion, and kindness to every living soul. Strive ye then with all your heart to treat compassionately all humankind—except for those who have some selfish, private motive, or some disease of the soul. Kindness cannot be shown the tyrant, the deceiver, or the thief, because, far from awakening them to the error of their ways, it maketh them to continue in their perversity as before. No matter how much kindliness ye may expend upon the liar, he will but lie the more, for he believeth you to be deceived, while ye understand him but too well, and only remain silent out of your extreme compassion.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 158-160

But being kind is a building block on one's own character and goodness, not the recipient's. How another accepts or rejects kindness is on them, IMO. Being kind with expectation is not sincere anyway, IMO.

I believe this is the first Baha'i writing you've shared that I must reject. But the message -- not the messenger.
Namaste, by Baha'i friend.

 

[Trailblazer]

But being kind is a building block on one's own character and goodness, not the recipient's. How another accepts or rejects kindness is on them, IMO. Being kind with expectation is not sincere anyway, IMO.

I agree that being kind is a building block on one's own character and goodness, not the recipient's.

However, I believe that being kind to some people is not in our best interest. It is also not in their best interest because it only encourages their bad behavior, as my quote says.

Do you think we should be kind to a man who is holding us up at gunpoint?
Do you think we should be kind to someone who we know is lying to us?
How does that build our character and goodness?

Should I be kind to a man on a dating site who is trying to con me?
No, I simply tell him I know his motives and then I report him to the site management and they remove him from the site.


I am not suggesting that kindness should come with expectations. That is another subject.

 

[Kathryn]

My religious beliefs are much more important to me than politics.

However, my path is personal, and I don't believe in shoving it down other's throats.

Also, my path is not Christian, so much of what people think of as 'religion' in this context isn't applicable.

Though my path is Christian I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[Spice]

I agree that being kind is a building block on one's own character and goodness, not the recipient's.

However, I believe that being kind to some people is not in our best interest. It is also not in their best interest because it only encourages their bad behavior, as my quote says.

Do you think we should be kind to a man who is holding us up at gunpoint?
Do you think we should be kind to someone who we know is lying to us?
How does that build our character and goodness?

Should I be kind to a man on a dating site who is trying to con me?
No, I simply tell him I know his motives and then I report him to the site management and they remove him from the site.


I am not suggesting that kindness should come with expectations. That is another subject.

My answer to all your questions is YES. There's a difference between being kind and being a doormat. You can deny many wrongs against yourself and others without using cruelty or nefarious means.
Sometimes being kind is simply not saying anything, especially if doing so would antagonize and escalate the situation. I have sent quite a few shoplifters to jail with firm and definitive kindness. If I had not, I perhaps would have needed a bodyguard. [Wink]

 

[wellwisher]

Yeah people have the right to believe in their god and religion but if it interferes with 'good' governance of that country, that's when there is a problem.

It seems, in general that countries (Western) with the least amount of interference from religion, are the happiest and most prosperous.

Coincidence? I think not.

I think you have it backwards. Western religion, like Christianity, do not have Church police lording over you or their flocks. The Church has a much looser tether, which allows you much more freedom. Religious people tend to be happy until Big Government interferes. You are treated more as an adult, by religion, since it is between you and your God. That makes people have more self control.

There are no religious jails full of inmates, at least in the Western World, due to breaking a Commandment. Biden and Harris, used law fare to harass pro-life Priests practicing their religion and freedom of assembly. The Priest was happy until the secular law mongers put it boot on his neck. The priest had no army or police force to arrest Harris and Biden, for being bullies. Who are the real bullies?

The hardship in the US, caused by inflation over the past few yeasts, came from Government boneheads, not the Church. The US has more lawyers than any other country due to secular lawlessness, often from Lawyers running scams; law fare.

The Church taxes you with tithes, but these are optional in most places, but 10% is usually the upper limit. It is not like Big Government who if they cannot rip you off with higher taxes, they borrow money to rip everyone off in the future.

I would bet that there are more secular people in jail than those who abide by their faith. They all are under the same laws. It is very rare to see street gangs composed of tattooed priests, ministers and rabbis carrying guns, shaking down businesses, or engaged in drive by shootings. That is usually the godless.

Many Atheis live is a weird place in their minds about religion, and fail to do the math of practical reality.

 

[Trailblazer]

My answer to all your questions is YES. There's a difference between being kind and being a doormat. You can deny many wrongs against yourself and others without using cruelty or nefarious means.
Sometimes being kind is simply not saying anything, especially if doing so would antagonize and escalate the situation. I have sent quite a few shoplifters to jail with firm and definitive kindness. If I had not, I perhaps would have needed a bodyguard. [Wink]

1. O SON OF SPIRIT! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh