Godless is lack of Virtues.

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

God is likened to the Sun, the source of light and life.

Thus Godless is the exact opposite, it is darkness and death.

So from a faith perspective, Godliness is being made alive in the light of God which is all the virtues.

In that context, a person of faith is to look for the light, from no matter where it shines, but most importantly become the light that is life itself and build lasting connections in family communities and Nations.

A person with no faith must then choose virtue over vice for their own reasons, but there is no disputing, virtues make the person and create harmony, whereas vices tear apart people, families, communities and Nations.

In that way, humanity can find a unity in its diversity.

View attachment 61678


So how do we promote virtues over vices, to an extent that war is no longer considered or tolerated?

Regards Tony

The light only shows us what is nearby. If you want to see the universe, it must be night.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Reasonably clear there, all the virtues in the "light of god". Again you may not have meant it, but this reads like virtues are only to be found in the light of god, which of course does not sound like atheism does it?

Then in the OP there is this:

Again it's hard to misinterpret that? No need for any subjective creative interpreting is there

I always like to consider that calling oneself a follow of God is but a claim, it is not yet a virtue. In fact I am willing to say there is no person of faith that can say they are the apex of virtues, or that they are at the apex of a godly life. We all have vices and as such are all in our own condition, Godless or lacking virtues.

The best example I know of a virtuous man, that is a man that exemplified the apex of all virtues, would have been Abdul'baha. (That also requires more explanation)

So you have asked a fair and valid question and I will answer it using only the virtues.

To emulate a virtue, what guage do we use to understand the apex of Love? It is only when we consider the apex of a virtue, that we can consider and understand what it is not to Love.

The OP offered that a person who does not believe in God has to choose for themselves how to express the virtue of Love. The OP did not offer that for a person without Faith can not attain to the apex of Love.

For a person of faith, the answer lays in that we have been given a guide in that the Messenger is known as the apex of Love and they are the example we can use to emulate the virtue of Love.

That leads back to the OP question,

"So how do we promote virtues over vices, to an extent that war is no longer considered or tolerated?"

The apex of Love does not promote war, but the apex of Love contains justice and Love aids the poor and the weak.

An person that has no faith has to determine how they will love when it comes to war.

For a Christian they have been given the example of Jesus and the teaching of Love thy Enemy.

So in both cases when we are facing an enemy, what winds the day is the extent we are willing to emulate the virtue of Love, not that we say we are a follower of God or not.

Is that explanation any clearer of what the OP is offering?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The light only shows us what is nearby. If you want to see the universe, it must be night.

Great observation that also shows what the OP is offering.

There is a reason that the earth is at the exact distance away from the source of light, the Sun, that it enables life to exist as we know it. We are on the edge of darkness and the beginning of light, so we are in a condition that we can see without being blinded by the light. Darkness also shows us that the sun that gives us life and that it is not the only sun that exists. For us to exist in this state, there must be source of light and the capacity of darkness, the lack of that source.

Thus when we then equate the light of the sun as the apex of a virtues, we can then see there is Light and darkness in each virtue and we can choose for our own selves the extent of the virtue we wish to emulate.

Regards Tony

 

[Truthseeker]

Was he?, Only after being pulled up about his abuse. Why should i or others read a whole thread when the title and op is an insult?

Actually he has said that often in several threads he has created. Of course may have been using his personal definition of metaphor.

I have always been of the opinion that the first thing someone says or does is the truth, digging foxholes after the fact to me shows a defect in personality

No, he is not good at appreciating other people's point of view. He seems to assume that others will know his point of view, understand his metaphors. He is naive. He has also been too fuzzy in throughout this thread in digging himself out of other people's view of what he said, in my opinion. Overall, it has been a disaster for him. If someone like you has the impression that he is insulting atheists, it is really a disaster he has created for himself.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Since most people don't use the word, "likened", I assumed this was based on something Baha'u'llah said. Was it?

Personally I see that virtues and vices, Light and darkness, good and evil, godly and godless are the core of all religious scriptures.

Thus I thought most people of faith used them them in metaphor, but maybe a have the wrong word?

"A metaphor is a figure of speech that uses one thing to mean another and makes a comparison between the two.........A simile compares two different things in order to create a new meaning. ......An analogy is comparable to metaphor and simile in that it shows how two different things are similar, but it's a bit more complex."

Reading that explanation, seems I should be using Analogy, not metaphor.

Maybe that is the conflict in understanding I have created? When one is Godless, that is always prone to happen.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Personally I see that virtues and vices, Light and darkness, good and evil, godly and godless are the core of all religious scriptures.

Thus I thought most people of faith used them them in metaphor, but maybe a have the wrong word?

"A metaphor is a figure of speech that uses one thing to mean another and makes a comparison between the two.........A simile compares two different things in order to create a new meaning. ......An analogy is comparable to metaphor and simile in that it shows how two different things are similar, but it's a bit more complex."

Reading that explanation, seems I should be using Analogy, not metaphor.

Maybe that is the conflict in understanding I have created? When one is Godless, that is always prone to happen.

Regards Tony

You know you could be perfectly clear and you'd still rile some of us up.

So how do we promote virtues over vices, to an extent that war is no longer considered or tolerated?

I'd don't know what you were doing in the late 60's and early 70's, but here in California a lot of us rejected the thought of war as being a solution to anything. But all the people I knew were filled with vices... mostly pot, LSD, mushrooms and free love. But were they really "vices"? They kind of freed a lot of us from materialism and selfishness. Somehow, a lot of us got more spiritual. Some of us kind of thought our love was "pure", but it was more like we were rejecting the taboos and the shame some religious people put on sex. It was very liberating. But once the Vietnam War ended, some of the "hippies" I knew became Jesus Freaks... which then evolved into very mainstream Christianity. And, as they got older, got married, got jobs, had kids, bought a house, they became almost like their parents and that older generation they had once rejected.

Then another thing that seems to be happening is that war is okay when you're fighting an evil invading army. But then each side finds ways to make the other people the evil ones and in the wrong. And even Baha'is support rising up to put down invaders. But then we have the rich, powerful nations exploiting weaker nations for their resources. So is it evil for them to rise up and fight against those rich nations? Yeah, I don't think people are ever going be totally loving and totally just, so what can we do? Rebell against all injustice and all tyranny? Of course in a loving way.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I wish people would pay attention to whole thread sometimes. He was speaking in metaphor, he doesn't believe that atheists are godless. Neither do I, he has said that in this thread.

Atheists are godless. It doesn't matter what you, he or anyone else believes on it.

 

[osgart]

God is likened to the Sun, the source of light and life.

Thus Godless is the exact opposite, it is darkness and death.

So from a faith perspective, Godliness is being made alive in the light of God which is all the virtues.

In that context, a person of faith is to look for the light, from no matter where it shines, but most importantly become the light that is life itself and build lasting connections in family communities and Nations.

A person with no faith must then choose virtue over vice for their own reasons, but there is no disputing, virtues make the person and create harmony, whereas vices tear apart people, families, communities and Nations.

In that way, humanity can find a unity in its diversity.

View attachment 61678


So how do we promote virtues over vices, to an extent that war is no longer considered or tolerated?

Regards Tony

For someone that is living vices instead of virtues they do things out of hatred with no good reasons for their actions. Vices are things like vanity, arrogance, lying, cheating, stealing, abuse, murder, etc. They do not look for true justification, and solid reasons for peaceful objectives.

Someone at the crossroads between virtues and vices is probably thinking selfishly about how to get ahead in life, or meet their necessities when fairness has not served them well or they suffer more injustices playing by the rules. Perhaps they are having a crisis of meaning and what is life worth.

So vices and virtues are about what a person desires most in life to the extent of what are they willing to live and die for. At the crossroads people live in blindness to what's truthful and good about virtues.

Imo, a person has to be willing to die for what's right expecting nothing in return, and then they can truly walk the road of virtues. It must be the highest priority of the truest desires of the heart.

Imo, much of humanity has to contend with blindness and ignorance, stupidity, and lack of experience. So evil isn't the only adversary, or adversity.

I think one of the most defeating things that happens in life is total misunderstanding, and false perceptions.

When a person comes to a fork in the road called virtues, and vices I think it's because they are desperately seeking something; it may be good, it may not be.

Blindness, and boredom cause lots of trouble as well.

I think very many people are trying their best to live and survive, and also get a chance at a good life worth living. I see no guarantees in life that being a wonderful person means a happy life without tragedy, and suffering.

As for war, it's a desperate move to make war I think all these things I mentioned are factors in it.

I don't think there is a knockdown answer to make human peace a reality for all. The life of virtues is mainly in service to others, and what they need and deserve. Self care is also very important. I do think there are levels of virtuosity.

If there is a God I would expect top level stuff and the capability to act on it.

Me as an atheist, I can see that the nature of reality doesn't play by fairness and justice. True justice to me is a dream. Yet, everyday, people can make things better or worse if they so choose.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You know you could be perfectly clear and you'd still rile some of us up.

It appears even people of one's own Faith. That's OK, but I see that misses the point we are all one people on one planet.

Abdul'baha offered put a topic forward and discuss, if it becomes a cause for dissension, then to stop and leave it alone.

I was happy to discuss, I am happy to leave it alone. There is so much that an be offered on this topic.

In the end the OP is seen in one's own light. Some saw the good internet, yet they were founded in the knowledge of that intent.

This is an extract from Abdul'baha, the type of verse this OP was based upon, I have cut down the quote to the relevant part in regards to this OP,

"....... for no matter to what religion a man belongs, even though he be an atheist or materialist, nevertheless, God nurtures him, bestows His kindness and sheds upon him His light......"

Thus the light is the virtues and to have virtues is godliness, no matter who we are and how we see those virtues.

The virtues define us.

I am most likely going spend a lot less time here. All the best CG.

Regards Tony

An athiest with a virtue, sheds more light of that virtue and is thus more godly that a believer without that virtue.

It was sad for me, that those that understood the Metephor, analogy , similar did not spend more time explaining it, thab to offer how wrong I had presented it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

For someone that is living vices instead of virtues they do things out of hatred with no good reasons for their actions. Vices are things like vanity, arrogance, lying, cheating, stealing, abuse, murder, etc. They do not look for true justification, and solid reasons for peaceful objectives.

Someone at the crossroads between virtues and vices is probably thinking selfishly about how to get ahead in life, or meet their necessities when fairness has not served them well or they suffer more injustices playing by the rules. Perhaps they are having a crisis of meaning and what is life worth.

So vices and virtues are about what a person desires most in life to the extent of what are they willing to live and die for. At the crossroads people live in blindness to what's truthful and good about virtues.

Imo, a person has to be willing to die for what's right expecting nothing in return, and then they can truly walk the road of virtues. It must be the highest priority of the truest desires of the heart.

Imo, much of humanity has to contend with blindness and ignorance, stupidity, and lack of experience. So evil isn't the only adversary, or adversity.

I think one of the most defeating things that happens in life is total misunderstanding, and false perceptions.

When a person comes to a fork in the road called virtues, and vices I think it's because they are desperately seeking something; it may be good, it may not be.

Blindness, and boredom cause lots of trouble as well.

I think very many people are trying their best to live and survive, and also get a chance at a good life worth living. I see no guarantees in life that being a wonderful person means a happy life without tragedy, and suffering.

As for war, it's a desperate move to make war I think all these things I mentioned are factors in it.

I don't think there is a knockdown answer to make human peace a reality for all. The life of virtues is mainly in service to others, and what they need and deserve. Self care is also very important. I do think there are levels of virtuosity.

If there is a God I would expect top level stuff and the capability to act on it.

Me as an atheist, I can see that the nature of reality doesn't play by fairness and justice. True justice to me is a dream. Yet, everyday, people can make things better or worse if they so choose.

Well done that is great answer. I will read it a few times, but I see agreement on all points. I was going to stay away from RF, but you answered my heart, thank you.

I especially Love this comment you made.

"Imo, a person has to be willing to die for what's right expecting nothing in return, and then they can truly walk the road of virtues. It must be the highest priority of the truest desires of the heart."

For a person of Faith, they have the example of the Messenger, or followers who did give their life to emulate the virtues. Thus I ask a question, if you do not mind considering an answer, who are the persons that you see can inspire virtues that can lead to peace?

Regards Tony

 

[Bree]

God is likened to the Sun, the source of light and life.

Thus Godless is the exact opposite, it is darkness and death.

So from a faith perspective, Godliness is being made alive in the light of God which is all the virtues.

In that context, a person of faith is to look for the light, from no matter where it shines, but most importantly become the light that is life itself and build lasting connections in family communities and Nations.

A person with no faith must then choose virtue over vice for their own reasons, but there is no disputing, virtues make the person and create harmony, whereas vices tear apart people, families, communities and Nations.

In that way, humanity can find a unity in its diversity.

View attachment 61678


So how do we promote virtues over vices, to an extent that war is no longer considered or tolerated?

Regards Tony

For people to adopt the virtues of God, they need to put aside all wrongdoing and live according to Gods will and standards. When a person does this, God grants holy spirit to that person and it is the holy spirit which brings about the desired virtues.

The bible names the virtues this way:

“The fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.”—Gal. 5:22, 23,

Imagine a world were every person is described as the virtues that come from Gods holy spirit. They are a reflection of God himself and to be more like God in these ways, we must learn to walk with God and put badness aside.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Atheists are godless. It doesn't matter what you, he or anyone else believes on it.

So simply, what the OP is offering, albeit that has not been the way you see the topic.

The OP is offering it is virtues that define a person, but virtues are also seen by others in different frames of references.

All one has to do is remove the word they do most agree with

Example.

An Athiest is defined by either Virtues or by Vices.

That is all the OP is offering.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Since most people don't use the word, "likened", I assumed this was based on something Baha'u'llah said. Was it?

I've also heard Baha'is say that Baha'is are "followers of the light." And I've heard lots of religious people use "light" for doing good and following God, and "darkness" for doing evil and going against what God wants.

So, a "Godly" person is following the "light", the teachings of God. Which includes that a person should be kind, humble, loving and all the rest of the virtues.

Problem is... nobody is totally in the "light" or totally in the "dark". People in lots of religions have done some very "dark" things. And the average religious person, the nominal believer, isn't necessarily any more virtuous than other anybody. So, because of those "religious" people, those that do evil, "darkness" and those that are nominal believers, those with not much light shining... lots of us find it hard to believe in the various religions and the Gods they claim to exist.

But then we have people like you. You're trying to be virtuous. You're trying to do as your God and religions has commanded... to go out and "teach" others, that the Promised One has come. And what happens? Not very many believe you. They see your "light" as nothing more than your belief in a bunch of teachings from a man who claimed to be from God. They don't see the "virtue" of truthfulness and honesty. They see someone that has fallen for the teachings of some new religion. Whose God and prophet they doubt. And, every once in a while, a Baha'i calls them "blind"... that they can't see the "light."

A person of "faith"? I'd imagine lots of them, the nominal believers, aren't looking for any other light. They're barely believing and following the one they've got. Then the "true-believers". Some of them are out arguing why their religion is right and all the others are wrong. They see the "darkness", the falseness and delusion in the other religion and some say that even Satan can appear as the light.

So, all this about seeing the "light" no matter where it shines, and all that about building communities and nations? That's all Baha'is stuff. Knowing a little about the Baha'i Faith, I'd say that is saying that "true seekers" of the light should see that the Baha'i Faith is the truth. And we should all join together as one, virtuous, "light" or God following people.

A person with "no" faith? Yeah, who is that Atheists? Again, nobody is perfect, all light or all darkness. We all got our vices. In that way we can find "unity" in our diversity? More Baha'i stuff. So... if the "Godly" and the "Godless" become virtuous, we can become unified? As if we can do that or even want to do that? Because, to me, what the virtues are and how to apply them are part of the teachings of the Baha'i Faith. The other religions might be close, but Baha'is believe they have the new teachings for today... which includes how to unify all people and all the religions.

Just a few "vices"... things that are "dark" that Baha'is believe should not be done. No drugs, alcohol and no sex before marriage, even with yourself, and once married only with your spouse. Oh, and no sex with someone from the same sex. I think these "vices" will continue. How about hate, anger, greed and all those kinds of things? I think they're going to continue. Sure, unity sounds great. But what do you do with all these people that continue living in the "darkness" of their vices?

That's the problem. We're just people. Baha'is say that we must elect a world government... a tribunal that all the nations must listen to. All the nations are to give up most of their arms. Will those leaders be perfect? So virtuous that they never lie, cheat, or steal? How about the leaders in every nation?

I'd imagine the only way to "promote" virtues, the light, over the darkness is through a belief in a higher power. A belief that some higher power will reward the virtuous and punish the evil doers. But who's going to fall for that? As if some unknowable, invisible spirit-being is real?

Unfortunately, that's what the Baha'i Faith is trying to do... convince people that this invisible God is real and that we should do what he says. And, of course, the only way we can know what he says is by listening to his messenger, Baha'u'llah.

For someone that is living vices instead of virtues they do things out of hatred with no good reasons for their actions. Vices are things like vanity, arrogance, lying, cheating, stealing, abuse, murder, etc. They do not look for true justification, and solid reasons for peaceful objectives.

Someone at the crossroads between virtues and vices is probably thinking selfishly about how to get ahead in life, or meet their necessities when fairness has not served them well or they suffer more injustices playing by the rules. Perhaps they are having a crisis of meaning and what is life worth.

So vices and virtues are about what a person desires most in life to the extent of what are they willing to live and die for. At the crossroads people live in blindness to what's truthful and good about virtues.

Imo, a person has to be willing to die for what's right expecting nothing in return, and then they can truly walk the road of virtues. It must be the highest priority of the truest desires of the heart.

Imo, much of humanity has to contend with blindness and ignorance, stupidity, and lack of experience. So evil isn't the only adversary, or adversity.

I think one of the most defeating things that happens in life is total misunderstanding, and false perceptions.

When a person comes to a fork in the road called virtues, and vices I think it's because they are desperately seeking something; it may be good, it may not be.

Blindness, and boredom cause lots of trouble as well.

I think very many people are trying their best to live and survive, and also get a chance at a good life worth living. I see no guarantees in life that being a wonderful person means a happy life without tragedy, and suffering.

As for war, it's a desperate move to make war I think all these things I mentioned are factors in it.

I don't think there is a knockdown answer to make human peace a reality for all. The life of virtues is mainly in service to others, and what they need and deserve. Self care is also very important. I do think there are levels of virtuosity.

If there is a God I would expect top level stuff and the capability to act on it.

Me as an atheist, I can see that the nature of reality doesn't play by fairness and justice. True justice to me is a dream. Yet, everyday, people can make things better or worse if they so choose.

CG, I think Osgart supply a great balance answer.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You know you could be perfectly clear and you'd still rile some of us up.

I'd don't know what you were doing in the late 60's and early 70's, but here in California a lot of us rejected the thought of war as being a solution to anything. But all the people I knew were filled with vices... mostly pot, LSD, mushrooms and free love. But were they really "vices"? They kind of freed a lot of us from materialism and selfishness. Somehow, a lot of us got more spiritual. Some of us kind of thought our love was "pure", but it was more like we were rejecting the taboos and the shame some religious people put on sex. It was very liberating. But once the Vietnam War ended, some of the "hippies" I knew became Jesus Freaks... which then evolved into very mainstream Christianity. And, as they got older, got married, got jobs, had kids, bought a house, they became almost like their parents and that older generation they had once rejected.

Then another thing that seems to be happening is that war is okay when you're fighting an evil invading army. But then each side finds ways to make the other people the evil ones and in the wrong. And even Baha'is support rising up to put down invaders. But then we have the rich, powerful nations exploiting weaker nations for their resources. So is it evil for them to rise up and fight against those rich nations? Yeah, I don't think people are ever going be totally loving and totally just, so what can we do? Rebell against all injustice and all tyranny? Of course in a loving way.

Well CG, I think you have just given the quandary that is life and faith in a nutshell.

The OP offered it is the virtues that will define a person and thus, the virtues will define communities and on to Nations. I like to consider we are only as good as the weakest link. Is that not what is reflected in this world, that a Nation is seen as good as the leaders, though a majority in that Nation may have better virtues.

It is how we identify what are the apex of virtues, that gave rise to this OP.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

God is likened to the Sun, the source of light and life.

Thus Godless is the exact opposite, it is darkness and death.

That is the best example of a circular reasoning fallacy I have seen. You assume your conclusion in your initial premise "god is likened to the sun,"

Assumptions are not arguments, or evidence.

 

[osgart]

Well done that is great answer. I will read it a few times, but I see agreement on all points. I was going to stay away from RF, but you answered my heart, thank you.

I especially Love this comment you made.

"Imo, a person has to be willing to die for what's right expecting nothing in return, and then they can truly walk the road of virtues. It must be the highest priority of the truest desires of the heart."

For a person of Faith, they have the example of the Messenger, or followers who did give their life to emulate the virtues. Thus I ask a question, if you do not mind considering an answer, who are the persons that you see can inspire virtues that can lead to peace?

Regards Tony

That question is one I look to answer personally. For me there are people in my life that inspire that. I don't know of a lot of people who inspire that in the greater public. Some of the people in history, like Buddha, or some quotes from the Bible I find inspiring. Though I'm not on board with their metaphysics nor their faiths.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, but they didn't know, and did they all stay around?

This OP has been good for me. It shows me I have a lot to learn.

It is interesting to note, even when one tries to clarify, clear up the misunderstood aspect of the OP, that people still hung on to the aspect that they saw was a conflict, so that is interesting in its own self.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That question is one I look to answer personally. For me there are people in my life that inspire that. I don't know of a lot of people who inspire that in the greater public. Some of the people in history, like Buddha, or some quotes from the Bible I find inspiring. Though I'm not on board with their metaphysics nor their faiths.

Thank you for the response. Why the greater good people do is not known, is usually they are the silent minority.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is the best example of a circular reasoning fallacy I have seen. You assume your conclusion in your initial premise "god is likened to the sun,"

Assumptions are not arguments, or evidence.

I offer evidence. The life of Abdul'baha.

If you choose to partake of that evidence, then you could read some press articles from his travels in the early 1900's.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Already done more than once, lets start with your unequivocal thread title.

There is little room for equivocation here.

I have already explained this, in quite some detail now. I have also noted that all the arguments are based on the Title of the OP, while disregarding the clarification given in the OP.

Regards Tony