Gods and Thoughts

[Bunyip]

Perhaps you believe yourself right to reason from my getting upset to your conclusion that my getting upset somehow demonstrates my ideas are wrong, but I doubt that's actually logical.

Actually it is very logical indeed. If you instantly get upset and want to close down the dialogue - it is most likely because you are clinging to something you know yourself to be wrong.

Tell me, if you must continue to drag this out for some reasons of your own, if something is the product of a physical process or processes, then how can that something be neither matter nor energy?

Because that something is conceptual, it is abstract. Urine is a product of a chimpanzee - but urine is not a chimpanzee.

Or do you think thoughts are not physical?

Yes, and I have made that clear several times.

And if you think that, then aren't you confusing what thoughts are with what is their subjective appearance to us?

Nope.

And if you are doing that, why insist on doing it?

I'm not.

It appears to me that you are simply confusing an abstraction, a concept for a quanta of matter.

 

[Deidre]

No, you can put your ideas onto the statue. The color red gives off different feelings than the color of sky blue. I can design the eyes on my red statue to look angry, have my god holding a weapon, have him wearing a belt with different gods on it such as Aries and Mars, and if the individuals don't understand it is a god of aggression / war then it's hardly my fault.



My point exactly. The key here is in getting away from these negative conceptions. They problem here is people think that their gods exist objectively and need humans to do their will, something not even slightly supported. The gods are rather tools that can be manipulated, and we need to get these tools out of the hands of the un-ready (don't let children play with guns) and strengthen their benefits (because guns aren't inherently bad, bad things just happen when you give them to children!).

Good points. Maybe god exists when we need him to, and he becomes what we hope him to be. And I'm feeling spiritual again in my life, and all I can say...that is cool, but I can't tell someone else to have the same needs and hopes as me. God or the concept of him, is highly subjective...do you like that thought or....?

Sorry, I can't entirely tell where you'd going with this. lol

 

[Sunstone]

Actually it is very logical indeed. If you instantly get upset and want to close down the dialogue - it is most likely because you are clinging to something you know yourself to be wrong.

Again, it is simply illogical to reason that a fact is disproved because of the attitude of the messenger of the fact. And in the second place, is is presumptuous of you to assume that I was upset precisely because I thought myself wrong. Do you think you're a mind reader then? Or perhaps, merely an infallible psychologist?

It appears to me that you are simply confusing an abstraction, a concept for a quanta of matter.

I am asserting that thoughts are in some significant sense identical to certain physical processes, while, if I understand you, you are arguing that thoughts arise as a product of certain physical processes, and are in some significant sense separate from those processes. To you, I appear to be confusing an abstraction with a quanta of matter, as you put it. To me, you appear to be basing your conclusion on your subjective experience of thinking. From a subjective standpoint, thoughts appear to be purely conceptual. This view of thinking, however, strikes me as naive.

You can have the last word.

 

[Bunyip]

Again, it is simply illogical to reason that a fact is disproved because of the attitude of the messenger of the fact. And in the second place, is is presumptuous of you to assume that I was upset precisely because I thought myself wrong. Do you think you're a mind reader then? Or perhaps, merely an infallible psychologist?

On the first point I disagree, on the second no and no.

I am asserting that thoughts are in some significant sense identical to certain physical processes, while, if I understand you, you are arguing that thoughts arise as a product of certain physical processes, and are in some significant sense separate from those processes.

Correct.

To you, I appear to be confusing an abstraction with a quanta of matter, as you put it.

Correct

To me, you appear to be basing your conclusion on your subjective experience of thinking. From a subjective standpoint, thoughts appear to be purely conceptual. This view of thinking, however, strikes me as naive.

How is just saying it is naive even supposed to be an argument? Of course thoughts are conceptual, not material.

You can have the last word.

But you have not even made an argument in defence of your misconception.

 

[1137]

Good points. Maybe god exists when we need him to, and he becomes what we hope him to be. And I'm feeling spiritual again in my life, and all I can say...that is cool, but I can't tell someone else to have the same needs and hopes as me. God or the concept of him, is highly subjective...do you like that thought or....?

Sorry, I can't entirely tell where you'd going with this. lol

Yeah I think so fast that I'm usually in a different place than those I'm talking with, lol.

Simply, the modern militant atheist and materialist movement would like us to kill gods off in view of pure physicalism. On one hand, killing off thoughts is terrifying on their own, everything in our lives essentially requires thought. More to the point, such action would destroy what we can make a highly valuable tool. Likewise, those who are causing strife in our world thanks to their massively egotistical idea of their subjective concepts being objectively true need to understand that yes, their "spiritual experiences" have meaning and their gods certainly aid in their lives, but same with those groups they disagree with.

 

[NulliuSINverba]

Of course there is no concept of gods that don't exist.

"F'tang you very much!"

Even if we are arguing against the existence of gods we have a conception of the gods we are arguing against.

Ever try arguing against something that you have no conception of?

There's way more evidence behind other people existing than thoughts... for example, our very communication is proof against the idea of solipsism to anyone but the absolute skeptic.

"Our" communication is a product of your mind. I don't exist. I'm only responding because your mind seeks entertainment.

In other words, you just made an *** of yourself

Need I remind you that it's your syllogism?

You're just trolling now.

Sorry. It isn't trolling simply because you've conceived that it is.

And to conclude that gods exist simply because they can be conceived of is an equally ridiculous conclusion.

 

[1137]

"Our" communication is a product of your mind. I don't exist. I'm only responding because your mind seeks entertainment.

Gotta stop you here. I can't argue with absolute skeptics, in fact no one can. You're mere act of having conscious thoughts makes you a hypocrite in your philosophy, and the contradictory and pointless nature of A.S. just turns me off. Plus even in an A.S.'s hypocricy debating is useless.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But unfortunate for your claim, thoughts are neither matter nor energy. So how can they be the product of a physical process rather than the process itself?

Nice thought. Let us investigate from the example of a painting. It is the result of a process. The painter thought of a particular depiction of a subject. Brought canvass and paint and worked. The result was a paining. It is neither canvass nor paint. It is the expression of the painter's thoughts (through, of course, the canvass and the paint). Like the example?

 

[NulliuSINverba]

Gotta stop you here.

Of course you do.

I can't argue with absolute skeptics

I find that rather difficult to believe.

in fact no one can.

Ibid.

You're mere act of having conscious thoughts makes you a hypocrite in your philosophy

Before you accuse me of philosophical hypocrisy, it would be might polite of you to inform me of exactly what my philosophy is.

Thank you in advance for whatever you're your answer turns out to be.

and the contradictory and pointless nature of A.S. just turns me off.

Be sure to add that to your Playmate Data Sheet, OK?

Plus even in an A.S.'s hypocricy debating is useless.

You're awesome. Can I just say that?

 

[jhwatts]

You have no guarantee that any supernatural entity is simply a concept. They could very well exist in some other universe or dimension. Unless you can disprove their existence they can never be a concept.