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God's Existence

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
I have already provided the proof, not my problem you have difficulty comprehending it so make up irrelevant straw men to justify your faith.

Your OPINIONS are only proof of what you believe. They are not evidence. IMO, you don't understand what evidence is.

And still you provide nothing to counter it.

I don't need to until you present some verifiable evidence. Real science itself contradicts what you believe.

Fact is more truthful than faith.

That depends on the object of the faith. When you have some verifiable facts, get back to me,

You have proved nothing wrong, you have provided personal opinion based on faith alone.

You have proved nothing right and your personal opinions are based on faith alone.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Your OPINIONS are only proof of what you believe. They are not evidence. IMO, you don't understand what evidence is.



I don't need to until you present some verifiable evidence. Real science itself contradicts what you believe.



That depends on the object of the faith. When you have some verifiable facts, get back to me,



You have proved nothing right and your personal opinions are based on faith alone.

Considering you actually posted that post using several derivatives of one of those proofs it seems clear that the lack of knowledge of evidence rests squarely on your shoulders.

Show me where "real science" contradicts my beliefs... Your claim, up to you to prove it.

As i have already stated, numerous times, e=mc2 is as verified as it gets.

Yet, you still use one of those proofs to advertise your faith.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Considering you actually posted that post using several derivatives of one of those proofs it seems clear that the lack of knowledge of evidence rests squarely on your shoulders.

Show me where "real science" contradicts my beliefs... Your claim, up to you to prove it.

The law of genetics has proved that the offspring can't acquire a characteristic not in the gene pool of the parents. The parents of packicetus did not have the gene for fins. Therefore packicetus could never become a sea creature.

As i have already stated, numerous times, e=mc2 is as verified as it gets.

It has not been completely proved, but for the sake of argument, what has it proved. Be sure to include the HOW IT DID.

Yet, you still use one of those proofs to advertise your faith.

I have not mentioned my faith, so why do you? This discussin is about science.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
The law of genetics has proved that the offspring can't acquire a characteristic not in the gene pool of the parents. The parents of packicetus did not have the gene for fins. Therefore packicetus could never become a sea creature.



It has not been completely proved, but for the sake of argument, what has it proved. Be sure to include the HOW IT DID.



I have not mentioned my faith, so why do you? This discussin is about science.

And evolution does not occur overnight... Was there a point to that irrelevant waffle?

E=mc2 is completely proved, if you want to know the proof i suggest you spend a few years studying physics at university or simply d the maths.

Mentioned before, you base your " claimed " scientific pontification on faith and God magic claiming it to be science. You want a scientific discussion then don't bring your faith into it.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
And evolution does not occur overnight... Was there a point to that irrelevant waffle?

Time will not change the laws of genetics. That response is an admission that you have no evidence evolution occurs a all. My point is that you have no verifiable evidence to supporet your opinions.

E=mc2 is completely proved, if you want to know the proof i suggest you spend a few years studying physics at university or simply d the maths.[

If you think it is universally accepted as proven, it is you who needs a elementary course in physics.

Mentioned before, you base your " claimed " scientific pontification on faith and God magic claiming it to be science. You want a scientific discussion then don't bring your faith into it.

Not true. I have not brought my faith into this discussion. Perhaps you also need a refresher course in reading comprehension.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Time will not change the laws of genetics. That response is an admission that you have no evidence evolution occurs a all. My point is that you have no verifiable evidence to supporet your opinions.



If you think it is universally accepted as proven, it is you who needs a elementary course in physics.



Not true. I have not brought my faith into this discussion. Perhaps you also need a refresher course in reading comprehension.


Bollcocks, comparing one generation to evolutionary change is a pathetic cop out and has nothing to do with your claim

And again, how stupid, such proofs are the corner stone of physics

You have based your argument a on god magic claiming it to ve scientific argument, which of course is an outright lie
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Bollcocks, comparing one generation to evolutionary change is a pathetic cop out and has nothing to do with your claim

The real cop out is saying it has been proven and can't prove it.

And again, how stupid, such proofs are the corner stone of physics

What is even more stupid is saying something that can't be proved is the cornerstone of anything.

You have based your argument a on god magic claiming it to ve scientific argument, which of course is an outright lie

What is an outright lie is you claiming I have mention God in this discussion. Before you make that untrue statement again, take a course in remedial reading comprehension.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
The real cop out is saying it has been proven and can't prove it.



What is even more stupid is saying something that can't be proved is the cornerstone of anything.



What is an outright lie is you claiming I have mention God in this discussion. Before you make that untrue statement again, take a course in remedial reading comprehension.


Sorry bud, just because you are in denial of the proof does not mean it's not proved, it just means you are in denial


I have not said you mentioned god, i have said your arguments are faith based so please do not accuse me of your failings
 
What makes the mutations to be rare, just happened to be so?
What if bad mutations happening every now and then and being out of control?
How things are being controlled?how the inanimate nature can fix it without any plans?
Do you think "just happened to be so" is a rational answer?

Mutations are relatively rare because there is a uniform rate of background radiation and there are built-in editing systems that repair damage and flaws in reproduction of the DNA. But still they slip in at a statistically predictable rate, simply due to the limitations of the system. Humans residing in Mars would no doubt have higher rate, and those with light skin can lower the rate by wearing sun protection in tropical or high altitude climes that our ancestors did not live in to evolve darker skins. If there are outside perturbations such as undue radiation from a nuclear reactor meltdown or too much ultraviolet light, then of course mutations will be more common or even almost certain. Many chemicals also cause mutations, some give cancers at a 100% rate.

Mutations in themselves aren't bad or good, but they change molecules in the DNA by changing its coding. From time to time these changes provide new enzymes which serve purposes for the organism that give them a reproductive advantage. Most have negative effects on the organism and are immediately eliminated by the death of the individual or else inability to otherwise reproduce. They can still be carried in the population without harm for most offspring if they appear as a recessive trait, such as the gene for hemophilia, which sometime in the future might give an advantage to the population as a whole, such as the gene for sickle-cell anemia in providing resistance to malaria.

The situation to a large extent determines whether they contribute to detract from a particular organism reproductive success. We humans might be acquiring genes that help us live better in urban environments, for example, such as making us more amenable in temperament to living closely for with other people or being bothered by noise. The difference may be unnoticeable, but it may lend a slight reproductive advantage to those who inherit the gene, which then can increase the effect when two appear together on the chromosome, etc.

Bacteria because they reproduce quickly and in great numbers have from the start been the laboratory for creating variability, and they have tended to make many of the major breakthroughs in evolution. These can start as a symbiotic relationship in which a bacterium with a breakthrough over time will first work in association with cells of other organisms and then merge into these cells as self-reproducing organelles within the cells, such as the power houses of cells known as mitochondria or the light-capturing chlorophyll in plants. This process of "symbiogenesis" was first theorized by Constantin Merezhkowsky, but it wasn't generally accepted until decades later when it was developed by Lynn Margulis. It, and transfer of genetic material by viruses, also underlies many other major breakthroughs in evolution such as construction of structures from calcium to make things like shells, bones and teeth. Bacteria have invented close to 60 kinds of metabolism, of which multi-celled organisms have incorporated five or six making the major kingdoms of life.

Although they get bad press by our society, because they have been around on earth longer than any other organism, bacteria live in association with all higher organisms, providing many necessary functions, to say nothing of helping to create and maintain the infrastructure of life such as the soil and atmosphere. We humans have more bacteria cells one and in our body then those we call our human cells. These produce many enzymes that our own cells are unable to produce and which therefore are relied on for the products of these enzymes. With our growing use of stronger and stronger antibiotics and toiletries we are realizing just how important they are for us when we happen to kill them off, giving us everything from uncomfortable diarrhea and reduced immune functions to emergency life-threatening consequences. There are a growing number of scientific papers indicating that chronic diseases that our modern population is experiencing at higher and higher rates such as autism, Alzheimer's and many autoimmune diseases seem due to be due to disturbance of our bacterial genomes by the chemicals we are introducing into the environment, ingesting and putting on ourselves.
 
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FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Mutations are relatively rare because there is a uniform rate of background radiation and there are built-in editing systems that repair damage and flaws in reproduction of the DNA. But still they slip in at a statistically predictable rate, simply due to the limitations of the system. Humans residing in Mars would no doubt have higher rate, and those with light skin can lower the rate by wearing sun protection in tropical or high altitude climes that our ancestors did not live in to evolve darker skins. If there are outside perturbations such as undue radiation from a nuclear reactor meltdown or too much ultraviolet light, then of course mutations will be more common or even almost certain. Many chemicals also cause mutations, some give cancers at a 100% rate.

Mutations in themselves aren't bad or good, but they change molecules in the DNA by changing its coding. From time to time these changes provide new enzymes which serve purposes for the organism that give them a reproductive advantage. Most have negative effects on the organism and are immediately eliminated by the death of the individual or else inability to otherwise reproduce. They can still be carried in the population without harm for most offspring if they appear as a recessive trait, such as the gene for hemophilia, which sometime in the future might give an advantage to the population as a whole, such as the gene for sickle-cell anemia in providing resistance to malaria.

The situation to a large extent determines whether they contribute to detract from a particular organism reproductive success. We humans might be acquiring genes that help us live better in urban environments, for example, such as making us more amenable in temperament to living closely for with other people or being bothered by noise. The difference may be unnoticeable, but it may lend a slight reproductive advantage to those who inherit the gene, which then can increase the effect when two appear together on the chromosome, etc.

Bacteria because they reproduce quickly and in great numbers have from the start been the laboratory for creating variability, and they have tended to make many of the major breakthroughs in evolution. These can start as a symbiotic relationship in which a bacterium with a breakthrough over time will first work in association with cells of other organisms and then merge into these cells as self-reproducing organelles within the cells, such as the power houses of cells known as mitochondria or the light-capturing chlorophyll in plants. This process of "symbiogenesis" was first theorized by Constantin Merezhkowsky, but it wasn't generally accepted until decades later when it was developed by Lynn Margulis. It, and transfer of genetic material by viruses, also underlies many other major breakthroughs in evolution such as construction of structures from calcium to make things like shells, bones and teeth. Bacteria have invented close to 60 kinds of metabolism, of which multi-celled organisms have incorporated five or six making the major kingdoms of life.

Although they get bad press by our society, because they have been around on earth longer than any other organism, bacteria live in association with all higher organisms, providing many necessary functions, to say nothing of helping to create and maintain the infrastructure of life such as the soil and atmosphere. We humans have more bacteria cells one and in our body then those we call our human cells. These produce many enzymes that our own cells are unable to produce and which therefore are relied on for the products of these enzymes. With our growing use of stronger and stronger antibiotics and toiletries we are realizing just how important they are for us when we happen to kill them off, giving us everything from uncomfortable diarrhea and reduced immune functions to emergency life-threatening consequences. There are a growing number of scientific papers indicating that chronic diseases that our modern population is experiencing at higher and higher rates such as autism, Alzheimer's and many autoimmune diseases seem due to be due to disturbance of our bacterial genomes by the chemicals we are introducing into the environment, ingesting and putting on ourselves.

The main point here is that mutations are random, errors during DNA replications and some errors
were beneficial for the species, kind of luck.
 
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Duke_Leto

Active Member
We are the only means we know of by which the universe can contemplate it's own existence, explore, understand, appreciate itself from within- out of curiosity, does a 'deistic atheist' see this as an unintended coincidence?- something the creator would have no interest in? why not?

I don't know, or know how anyone would find out.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Without ever reading it, I will say they did not present any scientific evidence. Prove me wrong by cutting and pasting what they offered as evidence. I am going to don my prophecy hat and consult my crystal ball, and predict you will not do it ;)
I'll use this article instead. The Origin of Whales and the Power of Independent Evidence

The article is quite long and "The evidence that whales descended from terrestrial mammals is here divided into nine independent parts: paleontological, morphological, molecular biological, vestigial, embryological, geochemical, paleoenvironmental, paleobiogeographical, and chronological." so I see no point in copying and pasting all that text. Just read the article.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
I'll use this article instead. The Origin of Whales and the Power of Independent Evidence

The article is quite long and "The evidence that whales descended from terrestrial mammals is here divided into nine independent parts: paleontological, morphological, molecular biological, vestigial, embryological, geochemical, paleoenvironmental, paleobiogeographical, and chronological." so I see no point in copying and pasting all that text. Just read the article.

I don't expect you to post it all. Just one example of any scientific evidence they offered. I guarantee they did not offer any. They will only say it happened but they will not explain how.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
I don't expect you to post it all. Just one example of any scientific evidence they offered. I guarantee they did not offer any. They will only say it happened but they will not explain how.
No point in posting just one example from an article with so many kinds of different evidence. You are a hopeless case, I posted the link mostly for the benefit of all the others who read this thread and wanted an overview of all the available evidence.
 

stevevw

Member
Not saying that the sorce you link is wrong but this site just tells a story about what may have happened without any links to support what it says. This is common theme where stories are painted about events of acid rains and ecosystems dying and animals eating certain things etc etc which helps paint the picture that is probaably already decided to be true and so it becomes a circular argument.
 

stevevw

Member
I. GOD EXISTS

1) KALAM COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (KCA)

P1: Everything that begins to exist necessarily has a cause.
P2:
The universe began to exist.
C:
The universe necessarily has a cause.

P1:

Nothing comes into existence from nothing without a cause. It is completely unreasonable & nonsense to claim otherwise.

P2:

1. It is well-known that the Big Bang Theory suggests that the universe has a beginning.

2.
The laws of thermodynamics suggest that the universe has a beginning.

According to laws of thermodynamics, heat always transfers from hotter regions towards cooler regions until all regions have the same temperature. Since there are regions that are cooler than other regions, like stars & galaxies, then the universe didn’t exist for sufficient time for all regions to have the same temperature. Therefore, the universe is not eternal, i.e., it has a beginning.[1]
Wow well said,
C:


Since P1 & P2 are true, then it necessary follows that the universe has a cause.

2) FINE TUNING & DESIGN ARGUMENT

P1: Precise compatibilities between two things imply a common design.
P2: A design requires a common intelligent designer.
P3: Millions of things/events in the universe are precisely compatible with each other (directly or indirectly).
C: There necessarily exists a common intelligent designer (follows from 1, 2, & 3).

P1:

E.g., precise compatibility of each part of a mechanical watch imply that they are designed as such. It is impossible that those parts were arbitrarily & coincidentally made due to insignificant probability of such an event. Even if each part was DESIGNED by a different individual that was unaware of what others were doing, it would still be impossible that those parts were compatible with each other to make a working watch. Therefore, precise compatibility of different things with each other imply a common design.

P2:

Nothing designed, e.g., parts of a mechanical watch, can be without a common intelligent designer. By causality principle nothing can be without a cause. & nothing that has precise compatibilities with some other things (i.e., designed) can be the result of blind coincidences, chances or chaos. Is it at all possible that tens, hundreds, or even millions of precise compatibilities were the result of blind coincidences, chances or chaos? How?

P3:

Everything in the universe, including the laws & constants, esp. cosmological constant, are finely tuned & are very compatible with each other to make the current universe & life possible to exist. If they were slightly different, then it wouldn’t be possible for the current universe & life to exist. Everything being so compatible with each other from among billions of other possibilities each with comparable probabilities imply that they are not the result of coincidences or chances.

For example, imagine only some events after sun’s formation:

-formation of Earth,
-Earth having a particular magnetic field,
-Earth’s distance from the sun,
-its mass & orbit & orbital speed,
-Earth’s rotational speed & inclination of its rotational axis,
-formation of the moon,
-formation of atmosphere,
-etc.

All of these could be completely differently. But if ANY of them was slightly different, then there wouldn’t be these many life-forms on Earth.

Even the living things are precisely compatible & dependent on each other (directly or indirectly). For example, the existence of almost all living things has precise dependencies on atmospheric properties. The current atmospheric properties have precise dependencies on phytoplanktons’ characteristics, abundance etc.[2][3] So, almost all living things’ existence indirectly depends on phytoplanktons…

Is it possible that all of these precise compatibility of these events & beings were the results of blind coincidences, chances & chaos? One has to “turn-off” his/her mind & logic to be able to accept such a claim.

Billions of such things/events are already examined & precise compatibility are observed such as those mentioned above.

C:

Since P1, P2 & P3 are shown to be true then, by deduction, it follows that there necessarily exists a common intelligent designer. We call this common intelligent designer as God.

II. GOD (from KCA & DESIGN above) IS;

1) UNCAUSED

Think about beginning (to exist) of the universe. There necessarily exists a cause (C1) for its beginning. There necessarily exists another cause (C2) for C1. … There necessarily exists another cause (Ci) for C(i-1). There are only two options (it is either (a) finite or (b) infinite) for this chain of causes:

a) This chain stops in Ci if and only if (iff) Ci doesn’t need another cause to exist, i.e., iff Ci is uncaused.

b) Otherwise this chain goes to (actual) infinity.

i)
In P2 of KCA argument (I.1.P2) above we showed that the universe has a beginning, i.e., has an initial cause. In other words, the chain of causes of universe stops at a point (somewhere around Big Bang). Since this is the case, then there exists an uncaused cause (doesn't require any cause for its own existence) for the universe.

ii)
If we show that option (b) is impossible, then option (a) is necessarily true.

Let's assume that option (b) is the case. This means that there is a chain of total of infinite causes (Inf.(T)) before our universe begins, i.e., it goes "back" forever & never reaches a beginning point.

Since infinity = infinity/2 + infinity/2 & infinity/2 = infinity, then imagine a point that separates the chain of causes of our universe into two parts where there are infinite number of causes between this point & our universe (Inf. (1)) & the rest of infinite number of causes before this point (Inf.(2)). So, we have

Inf. (T) = Inf. (1) + Inf. (2).

There are still infinitely many causes prior to this point & infinitely many causes after this point until the beginning of our universe.

Since such a point must exist if the chain of causes of universe was infinite, then from this point on our universe waited for infinitely many causes (Inf. (1)) to happen before it began to exist.

What does "waiting for infinitely many causes to happen" mean? It means, the universe waits forever, i.e., hasn't come into existence yet, according to this point.

If the chain of causes was infinite, then such a point existed. And according to such a point, our universe hasn't come into existence. Since our universe has come into existence, then such a point doesn't exist. Hence, the chain of causes of universe is not infinite.

This (i.e., option b above) is a clear contradiction to reality... since our universe DOES exist.

Therefore, option b is not the case!!!

=> Since option b is impossible, then option a must be true.

Since option a is true, then there necessarily exists a cause Ci which has no beginning / is uncaused.

1. Since the universe has a beginning, then it necessarily has a cause.

2.
If the cause of our universe began to exist, then it necessarily has another cause. Similarly, that cause has another cause etc..

3.
Since the chain of causes in (2) cannot go to infinity, as shown above, then there is necessarily a beginning of those causes, i.e., there necessarily exists an initial cause (Ci) which hasn't began to exist, i.e., doesn't have a beginning, i.e., always existed, i.e., is eternal, i.e., is uncaused (i.e., Ci in option a).

We call/name/define this uncaused initial cause as God. If one asks what caused God to exist, then the answer is that He is necessarily UNCAUSED, as demonstrated above.

Further clarification

Imagine a moving train with 80 wagons.

- Since 80th wagon is moving, then what is pulling it (pulling is the type of cause in this case)?

- 79th wagon!

- What about 79th wagon?

- 78th wagon!



- What about 1st wagon?

- Locomotive!

- What is pulling the locomotive?

- What?! The locomotive doesn’t need to be pulled by something else in order to move. It is able to move without being pulled (unlike other wagons it has an engine).

If there are moving wagons (i.e., a train), then there necessarily exists something that, unlike other wagons, doesn’t need ANYTHING ELSE to pull it & it has the ability to move itself & all other wagons, i.e., locomotive. It is so, because infinite number of moving wagons, each of which requires something else to pull it, is physically impossible & logically absurd.

Similarly, for an existing universe (including all causes until the initial cause), where everything in it has a beginning, there necessarily exists an uncaused initial cause that has the ability to create something from nothing. We call this uncaused initial cause as the Creator of the universe or the God.

2) THE CREATOR

Since He is the cause of the universe’s coming into existence, then He is the Creator of the universe, by definition.[4]

3) THE RULER

There are laws in the universe (laws of nature/physics) that everything obeys them, i.e., they are ruling the universe. These laws are created within the universe & are a part of it. Since they are a part of the universe, then they must be created by the same cause we deduced from Design & KCA. Then, we conclude that this cause is constantly ruling the universe through these laws of the universe.

Therefore, consequently, God is the Ruler of the universe.


REFERENCES

[1] Heat death of the universe - Wikipedia
[2] Phytoplankton
[3] http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Phytoplankton
[4] the definition of create

SOURCE:
From my DDO Debates
Debate: Does God Exist | Debate.org
Wow, well said
 
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