Gods Greatest Desire?

[Ingledsva]

He created us with the capacity to be evil, but doesn't want us to be evil.

That would mean he created evil.

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[osgart]

From your link

". . . Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” How does Isaiah 45:7 agree with the view that God did not create evil? There are two key facts that need to be considered. (1) The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV). The Hebrew word can refer to moral evil, and often does have this meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, due to the diversity of possible definitions, it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence."
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All I can say is, nice cherry picking.

Oh, there is something else . . .
As I recently pointed out elsewhere here on RF, if one checks Strong's, the Hebrew word רַע (ra`) [Strong's H7451] when used as a noun, as it's used in Isaiah 45:7, means evil. It's listed as the primary meaning in both its feminine and masculine forms, and as the primary meaning in all of six listed categories. Moreover, among the 10 different translations of רַע (ra`) appearing in the 51 Bible versions I checked, "evil" is by far the most common, showing up in 52% of them. No other translation even approaches this number.

.

You probably realize ra means other things as well.

 

[osgart]

You have up there that you are agnostic. How would you or anyone else know how a God thinks, if one or more actually exists?

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Am agnostic, as i have not committed to a religion.

But its easy to discern what a perfect being would be like if anyone is truly compelled to do so. I myself would never worship less than what i originally posted.

I never said anything about the mind of God , only the will and heart of God.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Theology is the study of something and should not jump to conclusions. It is reasonable to think that God is not particularly against human life as we have been around many thousands of years, but life has not been easy nor answers obvious. Knowledge is forgotten, and many bites are poisonous. Weather is either too hot or cold, and we die easily and in discomfort. Our bodies decay alarmingly.

 

[Skwim]

Why would you expend so much effort on getting to know the Hebrew God when it is all so full of holes, and contradictions, and unreasonable dogma?

You mean, why would I bother to take a minute to look up the accepted meaning of a word in a particular context when I could just as well let someone's erroneous information be taken as true by others? Because I don't believe false information deserves to live. But aren't you glad I set you straight? Or would you prefer to go through life with your misunderstanding?

As for my research into the interpretation of רַע (ra`) in various Bibles, this was done several years ago in response to a related discussion where the issue was more tightly focused.



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[osgart]

You mean, why would I bother to take a minute to look up the accepted meaning of a word in a particular context when I could just as well let someone's erroneous information be taken as true by others? Because I don't believe false information deserves a life. But aren't you glad I set you straight? Or would you prefer to go through life with your misunderstanding?

As for my research into the interpretation of רַע (ra`) in various Bibles, this was done several years ago in response to a related discussion where the issue was more tightly focused.



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[Truthseeker]

So why bother to create evil in the first place?

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God wants us to make a decision to choose good over evil, because He wants us to have free will. What's it worth if we are automatically good and just a robot? Growth towards good is what it's all about.

 

[Truthseeker]

That would mean he created evil.

*

Nothing is pure evil. Evil is just a lack of good like darkness is the lack of light. In a sense all is good, it's just that it's less good, just like relative darkness is less light.

 

[osgart]

Quite frankly anyone alive has the choice to be good or evil. So i agree that God doesnt want robots for fellowship.

It is all a matter of the chosen will of heart. To say yes to God and God's justice in the truest love of your heart, that is the kind of people God desires companionship with. Why?

God is fair.
God is only upright.
God is every good virtue.
God is true.
God is loyal to those whom are loyal.
God is justice love and compassion.
God is only faithful to Gods word.
God is trustworthy only.
God is benevolent.
God gives deserve.
God is the ultimate friend.


God is incapable of cheating, lying, stealing, murder, dishonor, and betrayal. There is no evil in God.

God is faithful in all relationships.

God accepts nothing less than an upright heart.

To deserve God's friendship is the highest honor, and one must be worthy of it.

God can change hearts whom only will allow God to do so.

God is the author of mercy, by the will of Gods own desire, and the strength of Gods forbearance.

There is never a more true friend than God.

Evil is the love of those whom choose it. There are the hearts of people that choose never God, and never Gods truth. And they shall never be friends of God for that reason.

There is no evil in God.
Any book that tells you otherwise is a lie and is false.

God gives freely the knowledge of who God is to any that earnestly seek after God to do Gods will.

The enemy world will try to sway every man, and God is not moved.

That is the God i seek after, and i will accept no less.

 

[Skwim]

God wants us to make a decision to choose good over evil, because He wants us to have free will. What's it worth if we are automatically good and just a robot? Growth towards good is what it's all about.

Are you saying that free will couldn't exist unless there was the option to choose between good and evil? Why is that? That the option between good and simply bad wouldn't do the job? Why couldn't free will be established wherein choosing between other options existed, but without the option of evil? Choosing between red beans and brown beans for example, or left and right? Why is evil sooo crucial to free will?

Actually, I know why. Because it's the chief way---unreasonable it is---by which Christians can justify god's creation of evil. Unfortunately, when rationally considered, it doesn't hold up. The notion that evil exist so as to enable humans, and other forms of life, to have fee will is simply nonsensical.

.

 

[InChrist]

From your link

". . . Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” How does Isaiah 45:7 agree with the view that God did not create evil? There are two key facts that need to be considered. (1) The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV). The Hebrew word can refer to moral evil, and often does have this meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, due to the diversity of possible definitions, it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence."
​

All I can say is, nice cherry picking.



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Cherry-picking is when someone takes one verse (or word), not only out of its immediate context, but out of the entirety of the scriptures to make that one verse say or teach something totally contrary to the whole of the Bible. Yet, Skeptics pick out verses constantly for the sole purpose of ridiculing the character of God, with no desire to understand the intended meaning. The idea of the Creator of heaven and earth, who the scriptures state is good, holy, and pure and who condemns and judges sin, creating "sinful moral evil" is completely contrary to the overall teaching of the Bible. So to take one verse to attempt to lay the blame on God for sinful evil is really lame and cherry-picking to the extreme. It is also weird that skeptics love the KJV so much, like we're still back in medieval England. This translation is problematic, since it uses an archaic version of modern English, where words don't always mean the same things today as when translated over 400 years ago. Any serious student of language is aware of the fact that words are flexible vehicles of communication. This principle is no less true of the Bible than it is of any piece of literature.

"Neither the original author nor the King James translators meant to say that God commits moral evil. The key to understanding the intent in the KJV is to realize just how much words change meaning over time. If you check the Oxford Etymological Dictionary, you will find that the English word “evil” when the KJV was produced (1611) was used to denote anything unpleasant, not just moral evil. We no longer use the word that way in modern English, so modern versions translate Isaiah 45:7 differently:" Isaiah 45:7: Does God Create Evil? | Apologetics Index

The chapters in Isaiah surrounding verse 45:7 reveal that God is speaking concerning the nation of Israel, the consequences of peace and/or calamity (evil) which occurred depending on their faithfulness or disobedience/ idol worship. The evil referred to in Isaiah 45:7 is not sinful, moral evil. According to Strong's the Hebrew words for SIN and EVIL are not the same and evil can mean distress or calamity, as it does in this verse or more specifically the absence of God's goodness and protection from Israel's surrounding enemy nations.
Strong's definitions:
Ra- evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
Chata'-to sin, miss, miss the way, go wrong, incur guilt, forfeit, purify from uncleanness

"Isaiah 45:7
Let’s read God’s words in Isaiah 45:7 again, looking at each statement separately:
Isaiah 45:7a “I form the light, and create darkness”
We know that in the beginning, God created light. He brought it into existence by His Word: Then God said, “Let there be light” and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.(Genesis 1:3-4)
Note that God only spoke the light into existence. Darkness was “created” after the light came into existence and darkness exists in the absence of light.
Returning to our verse in Isaiah:
Isaiah 45:7b “I make peace, and create evil“
Just as darkness was not created (as we think of an active work) and it exists only as the absence of light, so also evil is not created but exists in the absence of good (perfect peace/shalom). The same is true of cold. Cold is the absence of heat. Another illustration is a hole in the ground. One can dig a hole, or create a hole, but the hole only exists because of the absence of the dirt that has been removed.
In summary, evil is not the opposite of good. It is the absence of good. Evil has no existence of its own. You cannot have a bucket filled with evil. In order for man to have free will and choice, God had to allow man to choose good (obey) or choose to disobey. He gave them the command to eat from any tree in the garden with the one exception. When they chose to disobey, and chose not to do good, then evil/sin (the absence of good) entered our world."
Who We Are! » Reasons for Hope* Jesus

 

[InChrist]

Quite frankly anyone alive has the choice to be good or evil. So i agree that God doesnt want robots for fellowship.

It is all a matter of the chosen will of heart. To say yes to God and God's justice in the truest love of your heart, that is the kind of people God desires companionship with. Why?

God is fair.
God is only upright.
God is every good virtue.
God is true.
God is loyal to those whom are loyal.
God is justice love and compassion.
God is only faithful to Gods word.
God is trustworthy only.
God is benevolent.
God gives deserve.
God is the ultimate friend.


God is incapable of cheating, lying, stealing, murder, dishonor, and betrayal. There is no evil in God.

God is faithful in all relationships.

God accepts nothing less than an upright heart.

To deserve God's friendship is the highest honor, and one must be worthy of it.

God can change hearts whom only will allow God to do so.

God is the author of mercy, by the will of Gods own desire, and the strength of Gods forbearance.

There is never a more true friend than God.

Evil is the love of those whom choose it. There are the hearts of people that choose never God, and never Gods truth. And they shall never be friends of God for that reason.

There is no evil in God.
Any book that tells you otherwise is a lie and is false.

God gives freely the knowledge of who God is to any that earnestly seek after God to do Gods will.

The enemy world will try to sway every man, and God is not moved.

That is the God i seek after, and i will accept no less.

I agree with everything you have said here. The only thing I would add from my own perspective is that no human is capable of living up to these perfect standards of the perfect God, yet He has made a way for us to become perfect and new creations by His love through the perfection and victory of Jesus Christ over all evil.

 

[InChrist]

That would mean he created evil.

*

No, I don't think so...

Frequently it is alleged, however, that ultimately God is responsible for “evil” — for had he not created angels and men, the evil they have generated would not exist.


The logic employed in this objection is flawed, and the critic who makes it will scarcely stay with it in a consistent manner.


No greater compliment could have been paid to man than to have been created in the very image of God (Gen. 1:26-27). A part of that “creation package” was the gift of personal volition, that is, the ability to make moral choices. There are only two logical possibilities — one might be created with “free will,” or without “free will.”


Now which option is the obvious expression of love (cf. 1 Jn. 4:8). The former, of course. The Lord thus signally honored human beings by granting them the personal power of choice. Once such action was taken, the Creator is not morally culpable if the gift of choice is abused, and the possessor thereof elects to pursue the road of danger and destruction.
Did God Create Evil?

 

[InChrist]

Are you saying that free will couldn't exist unless there was the option to choose between good and evil? Why is that? That the option between good and simply bad wouldn't do the job? Why couldn't free will be established wherein choosing between other options existed, but without the option of evil? Choosing between red beans and brown beans for example, or left and right? Why is evil sooo crucial to free will?

Actually, I know why. Because it's the chief way---unreasonable it is---by which Christians can justify god's creation of evil. Unfortunately, when rationally considered, it doesn't hold up. The notion that evil exist so as to enable humans, and other forms of life, to have fee will is simply nonsensical.

.

it's not a choice between options of good or evil. The choice was and is to choose good or reject good. Rejecting good is the absence of good, resulting in evil.

 

[InChrist]

Perfect sense to whom? This is how sects, dogma, and division occurs in religions. And please tell what is love?

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 1 Corinthians 13:4-7

 

[Skwim]

Cherry-picking is when someone takes one verse (or word), not only out of its immediate context, but out of the entirety of the scriptures to make that one verse say or teach something totally contrary to the whole of the Bible.

*sigh* Here, have a seat.

​

cher·ry-pick
ˈCHerēˌpik/

verb
gerund or present participle: cherry-picking
1.selectively choose (the most beneficial items) from what is available.​

Yet, Skeptics pick out verses constantly for the sole purpose of ridiculing the character of God, with no desire to understand the intended meaning. The idea of the Creator of heaven and earth, who the scriptures state is good, holy, and pure and who condemns and judges sin, creating "sinful moral evil" is completely contrary to the overall teaching of the Bible. So to take one verse to attempt to lay the blame on God for sinful evil is really lame and cherry-picking to the extreme. It is also weird that skeptics love the KJV so much, like we're still back in medieval England. This translation is problematic, since it uses an archaic version of modern English, where words don't always mean the same things today as when translated over 400 years ago. Any serious student of language is aware of the fact that words are flexible vehicles of communication. This principle is no less true of the Bible than it is of any piece of literature.

In other words, his words don't mean what his words mean when you don't want them to mean what they mean. Don't get me wrong, I understand why you're compelled to claim they don't mean what they mean, but without evidence, which you have failed to provided, your claim is meaningless.

"Neither the original author nor the King James translators meant to say that God commits moral evil. The key to understanding the intent in the KJV is to realize just how much words change meaning over time. If you check the Oxford Etymological Dictionary, you will find that the English word “evil” when the KJV was produced (1611) was used to denote anything unpleasant, not just moral evil. We no longer use the word that way in modern English, so modern versions translate Isaiah 45:7 differently:" Isaiah 45:7: Does God Create Evil? | Apologetics Index

Well, with 52% of the bibles using the word "evil," it's obvious that most Bible translators disagree with your little apologetic here.

The chapters in Isaiah surrounding verse 45:7 reveal that God is speaking concerning the nation of Israel, the consequences of peace and/or calamity (evil) which occurred depending on their faithfulness or disobedience/ idol worship. The evil referred to in Isaiah 45:7 is not sinful, moral evil. According to Strong's the Hebrew words for SIN and EVIL are not the same and evil can mean distress or calamity, as it does in this verse or more specifically the absence of God's goodness and protection from Israel's surrounding enemy nations.

Get off it, please. We both know you're concocting irrelevant **** here. . . . . and I'm not buying it.

"Isaiah 45:7
Let’s read God’s words in Isaiah 45:7 again, looking at each statement separately:
Isaiah 45:7a “I form the light, and create darkness”
We know that in the beginning, God created light. He brought it into existence by His Word: Then God said, “Let there be light” and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.(Genesis 1:3-4)
Note that God only spoke the light into existence. Darkness was “created” after the light came into existence and darkness exists in the absence of light.

"Darkness was 'created' after the light came into existence"??? And what do you suppose it was like before god spoke the light into existence. Think it may have been dark?

Returning to our verse in Isaiah:
Isaiah 45:7b “I make peace, and create evil“
Just as darkness was not created (as we think of an active work) and it exists only as the absence of light, so also evil is not created but exists in the absence of good (perfect peace/shalom).

BUT GOD JUST TOLD YOU HE CREATED EVIL!!! Aren't you listening??

Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

I............create evil
​

The same is true of cold. Cold is the absence of heat. Another illustration is a hole in the ground. One can dig a hole, or create a hole, but the hole only exists because of the absence of the dirt that has been removed.
In summary, evil is not the opposite of good. It is the absence of good. Evil has no existence of its own. You cannot have a bucket filled with evil. In order for man to have free will and choice, God had to allow man to choose good (obey) or choose to disobey. He gave them the command to eat from any tree in the garden with the one exception. When they chose to disobey, and chose not to do good, then evil/sin (the absence of good) entered our world."
Who We Are! » Reasons for Hope* Jesus

OMG! Of course, if this kind of rationalization is what appeals to your sense of reason then by all means indulge yourself. As for me, I think I may barf.

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[Skwim]

it's not a choice between options of good or evil. The choice was and is to choose good or reject good. Rejecting good is the absence of good, resulting in evil.

So if I reject the good valvestemmer for my engine then I would be getting an evil valvestemmer instead? That if I wrote a bad (non-good) piece of music, I would have written an evil piece of music? That choosing not to give 300 dollars to the beggar on the corner, which would be a good thing to do, would be evil? Really?

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[osgart]

You mean, why would I bother to take a minute to look up the accepted meaning of a word in a particular context when I could just as well let someone's erroneous information be taken as true by others? Because I don't believe false information deserves a life. But aren't you glad I set you straight? Or would you prefer to go through life with your misunderstanding?

As for my research into the interpretation of רַע (ra`) in various Bibles, this was done several years ago in response to a related discussion where the issue was more tightly focused.



.

For anyone interested in what the Hebrew word ' ra ' means:

Ra` - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - King James Version

In reference to Isa 45:7, where kjv uses the word evil in translation from the Hebrew word ra.

Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

 

[BSM1]

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 1 Corinthians 13:4-7

Does this also define and/or describe God in your mind?

 

[Furchizedek]

God wants us to make a decision to choose good over evil, because He wants us to have free will. What's it worth if we are automatically good and just a robot? Growth towards good is what it's all about.

This is very good.