God's Israel in the new testament who is it *Romans 9:6-8

[3rdAngel]

Hi all

This thread is started, because some seem to be confused mixing up the physical nation of ISRAEL in the old covenant scriptures with God's true ISRAEL in the new covenant.

In this thread we are asking the questions...

1. What is the origin of the name of Israel and what does it mean?
2. Who are those identified as God's Israel in the new covenant?
3. Are gentiles grafted in to God's Israel?
4. What about the nation of Israel?
5. What about the Sabbath and Israel?

I will provide what I have discovered from a prayerful study of God's Word below for your consideration below and look forward to hearing your view (scripture only please).

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

 

[3rdAngel]

ORIGIN OF ISRAEL AND THE TWELVE TRIBES AND LINKING OLD TO THE NEW.

The promise of God to Abraham that his descendance would be as the sand of the sea or start of heaven…

GENESIS 22:15-18 [15], And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, [16], And said, By myself have I sworn, says the LORD, for because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son: [17], That in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies; [18], And in your descendants shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because you have obeyed my voice.

Jacob a descendant of Abraham being 2nd born received the birth right from Esau...

GENESIS 25:31 [31], And Jacob said, Sell me this day your birthright. [32], And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point of death: and what profit shall this birthright be to me? [33], And Jacob said, swear to me this day; and he swore unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob. [34], Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentils; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus, Esau despised his birthright.

God’s promise to Abraham was to be fulfilled through Abrahams descendant Jacob

GENESIS 32:11-12 [11], Deliver me, I pray you, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau: for I fear him, lest he come and smite me, and the mother with the children. [12], And you said, I will surely do you good, and make your descendants as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.

God changes Jacobs name to ISRAEL...

GENESIS 32:24-28 [24], And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. [25], And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. [26], And he said, let me go, for the day breaks. And he said, I will not let you go, except you bless me. [27], And he said unto him, what is your name? And he said, Jacob. [28], And he said, Your name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince have you power with God and with men, and have prevailed.

The name "Israel" is only a name given by God himself to represent his people. The origin of the name "Israel" come from Genesis 32:28 where Jacob wrestled with the Angel and prevailed ...for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. Its meaning is his posterity will rule as God. Jacob had 12 sons representing the 12 tribes of Israel.

ISRAEL (God’s new name given to Jacob) had 12 sons which make up the 12 tribes of ISRAEL

GENESIS 35:22-26 [22], ... Now the sons of Jacob were twelve: [23], The sons of Leah; Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Zebulun: [24], The sons of Rachel; Joseph, and Benjamin: [25], And the sons of Bilhah, Rachel's handmaid; Dan, and Naphtali: [26], And the sons of Zilpah, Leah's handmaid; Gad, and Asher: these are the sons of Jacob, who were born to him in Paddanaram.

God’s promise of the NEW COVENANT is to ISRAEL…

JEREMIAH 31:31-34 [31], Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32], Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; my covenant which they broke, although I was a husband unto them, says the LORD: [33], But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

144, 000 Come out of the 12 tribes of ISRAEL…

REVELATION 7:3-8 [3], Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads. [4], And I heard the number of them who were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. [5], Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. [6], Of the tribe of Asher were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasseh were sealed twelve thousand. [7], Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. [8], Of the tribe of Zebulun were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Yeps, seems like God’s people are called ISRAEL in both the OLD AND NEW Testament scriptures and the END OF TIME events John is describing in REVELATION 7. The word ISRAEL is a name that God gives to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD.

To be continued in the NEW Testament....

 

[3rdAngel]

GOD'S ISRAEL ARE ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD (The Church)

There is no such thing as Jew or Greek anymore. All who believe and follow God's Word are one in Christ. Israel in the OLD COVENANT were those from the seed of Abraham. In the NEW COVENANT, if you are in Christ then you are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise...

EPHESIANS 2:11-13 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;[12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

God's true ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are not by name only but all those in Christ. Those of the FLESH (sinful human nature) are not Abrahams seed but those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God in Christ are God's ISRAEL...

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

God's ISRAEL are all those in CHRIST that have been given a NEW HEART according to the NEW COVENANT promise...

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

In the NEW COVENANT all those in Christ are are God's ISRAEL...

COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.

ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

The New Covenant is for God's Israel...

EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.

and again...

JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Paul proclaims it here...

HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD.

If you are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL then you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12).

............

God's ISRAEL is the name given by God to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. GENTILES are now grafted in. If you are not a part of the God's ISRAEL then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT.

Now let's look at the meaning of the name that God gave to his people. The name "ISRAEL" ישׂראל; yiśrâ'êl means; "HE WILL RULE WITH GOD" God gave this name to his people and it means that they shall rule with God. Take a look at the following scriptures from REVELATION speaking of God's people.

REVELATION 1:5-6 [5], And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. To him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, [6], And HAS MADE US KINGS AND PRIESTS TO GOD AND HIS FATHER; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

and again...

REVELATION 5:10 And HAVE MADE US TO OUR GOD KINGS AND PRIESTS; AND WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH.

Peter speaking of God's people says it this way...

1 PETER 2:9-10 [9], But you [God's people] are a chosen generation, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD [KINGS AND PRIESTS], an holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light; [10], Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Sound familar? "ISRAEL" ישׂראל; yiśrâ'êl means; "HE WILL RULE WITH GOD" WHY?

JESUS is our great HIGH PRIEST ministering on our behalf in the HEVENLY SANCTUARY *HEBREWS 4:14. JESUS is the KING of KINGS *REVELATIONS 17:14; 19:16

HE WILL RULE WITH GOD WHICH IS THE MEANING OF "ISRAEL" is the name given to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD because JESUS will make them to rule with him as PRIESTS and KINGS.

Notice also in REVELATION 7:3-8 just before the judgements of God are poured out on the world God's people are sealed with God's Spirit and 144,000 come out of the 12 tribes of ISRAEL

REVELATION 7:3-8 [3], Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads. [4], And I heard the number of them who were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of ISRAEL. [5], Of the tribe of JUDAH were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of REUBEN were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of GAD were sealed twelve thousand. [6], Of the tribe of ASHER were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of MANESSAH were sealed twelve thousand. [7], Of the tribe of SIMEONwere sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of LEVI were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. [8], Of the tribe of ZEBULON were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of JOSEPH were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of BENJAMIN were sealed twelve thousand.

 

[3rdAngel]

GENTILES ARE NOW GRAFTED IN TO GOD'S ISRAEL.

ROMANS 11:16-27
[16], For if the firstfruit are holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

The root represents Christ...

[17], And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree.

The Jewish and the Gentile believers are the branches grafted onto the root (Christ)...

[18], Boast not against the branches. But if you boast, you bear not the root, but the root you.
[19], You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
[20], Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not arrogant, but fear:

God's ISRAEL are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD...

[21], For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also not spare you.
[22], Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off.
[23], And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
[24], For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, who are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
[25], For I would not, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
[26], And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The NEW COVENANT is for both Jews and Greek, bond and free, all those who are in Christ. All in Christ are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise.

[27], For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Gentiles are now grafted in to God's ISRAEL. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL you have no part in the NEW COVENANT.

 

[3rdAngel]

PHYSICAL ISRAEL IS NOT GOD’S TRUE ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Now listen to Jesus talking to the Jews...

JOHN 8:31-39
[31], Then said Jesus to those Jews who believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;
[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
[33], They answered him, We are Abraham's descendants, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free?
[34], Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin.
[35], And the servant abides not in the house forever: but the Son abides ever.
[36], If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.
[37], I know that you are Abraham's descendant; but you seek to kill me, because my word has no place in you.
[38], I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and you do that which you have seen with your father.
[39], They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said unto them, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

Jesus is saying the same thing as Paul in ROMANS 9:6-8 above. God's ISRAEL under the NEW COVENANT is not being a decendent of Abraham it is CONTINUING in God's WORD by BELIEVING and FOLLOWING it.

The children of the promise are counted for the seed (ROMANS 9:8) ...

HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:[11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.[12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

continuing this same line of thinking from Jesus and Paul earlier...

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

WHAT ABOUT THE NATION OF ISRAEL?

The HEBREW word used for NATION is dependent on the context of the scripture used and chapter. In the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures the references can be applied to ISRAEL as a Holy or Great Nation (Genesis 12:2; 17:20; 18:18; 21:18; 46:3; Exodus 19:6; 32:10 etc) or the surrounding gentile people.

The HEBREW WORD for NATIONS is [H1471] גּוי גּי'; gôy gôy simply means; a massing of people;
ISRAEL as a Holy Nation = Those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD will be a Holy massing of people
ISREAL as a Great Nation = Those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOd's WORD will be a Great [MIGHTY] mass of people

This is inline with God's promise to Abraham...

GENESIS 22:17[17], That in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is on the sea shore; and your seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

.............

NATIONS as applied to God's people in the OLD COVENANT...

EXODUS 19:6 [6], And you shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and an HOLY NATION. THESE ARE THE WORDS YOU SHALL SPEAK TO THE CHILDREN OF ISREAL.

Applied to Christians as God's ISREAL in the NEW COVENANT...

2 PETER 2:9 [9], But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an HOLY NATION, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

The OLD TESTAMENT scriptures are the keys to unlock the meaning of the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures together the OLD and NEW Testament make up the Word of God and we are to live by EVERY WORD of it (Matthew 4:4)

God's ISREAL according to the OLD and NEW COVENANTS are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. Gentiles are now grafted in (Romans 11:16-27)

May God bless you as you seek him through God's Word.

 

[3rdAngel]

GODS SABBATH A SIGN AND EVERLASTING COVENANT TO GOD’S ISRAEL

God's Sabbth (4th Commandment) is indeed a SIGN to God's people. Where does it say in the scriptures that this sign is not applicable now in the NEW COVENANT?

let's read the scriptures....

EXODUS 31:13-17 [13], Speak also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths you shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that you may know that I am the LORD that does sanctify you. [14], You shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defiles it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. [15], Six days may work be done; but on the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever does any work on the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. [16], Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a EVERLASTING covenant. [17], It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

New Living Translation
The people of Israel must keep the Sabbath day by observing it from generation to generation. This is a covenant obligation for all time.

English Standard Version
Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.

New American Standard Bible
'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.'

King James Bible
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Christian Standard Bible
The Israelites must observe the Sabbath, celebrating it throughout their generations as a permanent covenant.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Let the children of Israel keep the sabbath, and celebrate it in their generations. It is an everlasting covenant

Darby Bible Translation
And the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations -- [it is] an everlasting covenant.

Now all of this links into the next key scripture as follows

............................

ISAIAH 66:22-23 [22], For as the NEW HEAVENS AND THE NEW EARTH, which I will make, shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your descendants and your name remain. [23], And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, shall all flesh come to worship before me, says the LORD.

............................

CONCLUSION: Yep the scriptures are pretty clear here that God's SABBATH is an EVERLASTING COVENANT that will be kept in the NEW EARTH. God's ISRAEL in the new covenant are all those who believe and follow God's Word (the Church). Gentiles are now grafted in and if you are not a part of God's ISRAEL you have no part in the new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12

 

[MJFlores]

GOD'S ISRAEL ARE ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD (The Church)

I am sorry friend you are confused. You are in error. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear

 

[3rdAngel]

I am sorry friend you are confused. You are in error. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear

I am sorry my friend your words are not God's Word. I believe God and so should you.

 

[MJFlores]

I am sorry my friend your words are not God's Word. I believe God and so should you.

I am sorry friend you are confused. You are in error. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.

If you are an Israelite which tribe do you belong?

• Reuben
• Simeon
• Levi
• Judah
• Issachar
• Zebulun
• Dan
• Naphtali
• Gad
• Asher
• Joseph (later split into the "half-tribes" of Ephraim and Manasseh)
• Benjamin

Can't point your tribe?
Then you are not an Israelite.
It was only a delusion.

 

[3rdAngel]

I am sorry friend you are confused. You are in error. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.

If you are an Israelite which tribe do you belong?

• Reuben
• Simeon
• Levi
• Judah
• Issachar
• Zebulun
• Dan
• Naphtali
• Gad
• Asher
• Joseph (later split into the "half-tribes" of Ephraim and Manasseh)
• Benjamin

Can't point your tribe?
Then you are not an Israelite.
It was only a delusion.

Your just repeating yourself without reading or addressing any of the scriptures provided in the OP here. Please read post # 3 and all the scriptures provided there that show why your in error.

You have put yourself in a bit of a pickle now haven't you brother. If your not a part of God's ISRAEL dear friend you have no part in the new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Gentiles are now grafted in *Romans 11:13-27.

Give thanks to God and receive His Word and be blessed

 

[MJFlores]

Your just repeating yourself without reading or addressing any of the scriptures provided in the OP here. Please read post # 3 and all the scriptures provided there that show why your in error.

You have put yourself in a bit of a pickle now haven't you brother. If your not a part of God's ISRAEL dear friend you have no part in the new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Gentiles are now grafted in *Romans 11:13-27.

Give thanks to God and receive His Word and be blessed

In the Old Covenant, the people who are favored by God Almighty are the Israelites

Now what happened to them?

Romans 9:27-28 New International Version (NIV)
Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”

Let us use an easy to read translation of the Bible, again this is what apostle Paul wrote:

Romans 9:27-28 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
And Isaiah cries out about Israel:

“There are so many people of Israel,
they are like the grains of sand by the sea.
But only a few of them will be saved.
Yes, the Lord will quickly finish judging the people on the earth.”

How few?
The Bible says, which apostle Paul wrote - on the remnant of the Israelites will be saved - only a few of them will be saved. Does the Bible say how few???

Revelation 7:1-8 New International Version (NIV)
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

Now those are genuine Israelites
144,000 - a remnant of those Israelites who would be saved on Judgement Day
Not people who just feel like Israelites
But genuine [traced to the tribe] Israelites

So when a person claims to be an Israelite
He must belong to one of the 12 tribes
Otherwise it would be an empty claim
Next it would be unfortunate to be an Israelite
because God has a quota of Israelites who will be saved

“There are so many people of Israel,...But only a few of them will be saved.
144,000 from all the tribes of Israel

 

[3rdAngel]

In the Old Covenant, the people who are favored by God Almighty are the Israelites

Now what happened to them?

Romans 9:27-28 New International Version (NIV)
Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”

Let us use an easy to read translation of the Bible, again this is what apostle Paul wrote:

Romans 9:27-28 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
And Isaiah cries out about Israel:

“There are so many people of Israel,
they are like the grains of sand by the sea.
But only a few of them will be saved.
Yes, the Lord will quickly finish judging the people on the earth.”

How few?
The Bible says, which apostle Paul wrote - on the remnant of the Israelites will be saved - only a few of them will be saved. Does the Bible say how few???

Revelation 7:1-8 New International Version (NIV)
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.



Now those are genuine Israelites
144,000 - a remnant of those Israelites who would be saved on Judgement Day
Not people who just feel like Israelites
But genuine [traced to the tribe] Israelites

So when a person claims to be an Israelite
He must belong to one of the 12 tribes
Otherwise it would be an empty claim
Next it would be unfortunate to be an Israelite
because God has a quota of Israelites who will be saved

“There are so many people of Israel,...But only a few of them will be saved.
144,000 from all the tribes of Israel

Must be embarassing for you when all you have is pretty pictures and you have no scripture to support your positions and your not able to respond to the OP except to repeat yourself from what has already been addressed in the scriptures provided in this OP.

Sorry friend let me know when you want to discuss God's Word. Simply repeating yourself without addressing the posts with the scriptures and questions asked of you only show your not interested in a discussion. So I will leave that between you and God. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it and you do not seem to have any.

Where does it say in Revelation 7:1-8 that these are physical ISRAEL? If you have no scripture for this claim why are you pretending that you have?

Your reading into the scripture things they do not say and ignoring all the new covenant scriptures that show in the OP that God's ISRAEL are all those who believe and follow God's Word. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL you have no part in the new covenant *Hebrews 8:10-12. Gentiles are now grafted in *Romans 11:13-27.

You have got yourself in a bit of a pickle haven't you brother.

 

[MJFlores]

Where does it say in Revelation 7:1-8 that these are physical ISRAEL? If you have no scripture for this claim why are you pretending that you have?

Revelation 7:1-8 New International Version (NIV)
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

Twelve Tribes of Israel - Wikipedia

 

[3rdAngel]

Revelation 7:1-8 New International Version (NIV)
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

Twelve Tribes of Israel - Wikipedia

As posted earlier; must be embarassing for you when all you have is pretty pictures and you have no scripture to support your position and your not able to respond to the OP except to repeat yourself from what has already been addressed in the scriptures provided in this OP.

As posted earlier, let me know when you want to discuss God's Word. Simply repeating yourself without addressing the posts with the scriptures and questions asked of you only show your not interested in a discussion.

I asked you earlier in the last post where does it say in Revelation 7:1-8 that these are physical ISRAEL? If you have no scripture for this claim why are you pretending that you have?

Your reading into the book of Revelation in the new covenant things that they do not say. We are warned against adding to the words of the book of revelation *Revelation 22:18.

God's Word says that God's ISRAEL in the new covenant are all those who believe and follow God's Word. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL you have no part in the new covenant promise*Hebrews 8:10-12. Gentiles are now grafted in *Romans 11:13-27.

You have got yourself in a bit of a pickle haven't you brother

 

[MJFlores]

I asked you earlier in the last post where does it say in Revelation 7:1-8 that these are physical ISRAEL? If you have no scripture for this claim why are you pretending that you have?

Revelation 7:1-8 Amplified Bible (AMP)
After this I saw four angels stationed at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw another angel coming up from the rising of the sun, holding the seal of the living God; and with a loud voice he called out to the four angels to whom it was granted [to have authority and power] to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth nor the sea nor the trees until we seal (mark) the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”

And I heard how many were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand; [twelve thousand] sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:


Twelve thousand were sealed from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand from the tribe of Gad,

twelve thousand from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand from the tribe of Manasseh,

twelve thousand from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand from the tribe of Issachar,

twelve thousand from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand from the tribe of Joseph, and twelve thousand from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed (marked, redeemed, protected).

Those are Israelites
Those who died [asleep] and will be saved
Physical Israelites
You betcha
12,000 souls are saved for each tribe
Bringing a total of 144,000 [12,000 x 12]
If that ain't physical enough that one could count 'em
Then you ain't know what physical is

Don't get distracted with my "pretty pictures"
It makes the discussion more colorful and lively

animated instead of boring static
funny instead of sad
I cannot bear a sad, angry and pathetic discussion
rather a free flow of ideas and extemporaneous exchange is what I offer

So there you go, that's Israelites in the Revelation of Jesus Christ as written by apostle John
and according to apostle Paul
Israelites were many but only a few will be saved

Romans 9:27 Amplified Bible (AMP)
And Isaiah calls out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is only the remnant [a small believing minority] that will be saved [from God’s judgment];

Therefore if people would follow the sons of Israel
Chances are people will not be saved from God's judgement
since the Lord have already sealed that 144,000 Israelites would be saved

 

[3rdAngel]

Revelation 7:1-8 Amplified Bible (AMP)
After this I saw four angels stationed at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw another angel coming up from the rising of the sun, holding the seal of the living God; and with a loud voice he called out to the four angels to whom it was granted [to have authority and power] to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth nor the sea nor the trees until we seal (mark) the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”

And I heard how many were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand; [twelve thousand] sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:


Twelve thousand were sealed from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand from the tribe of Gad,

twelve thousand from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand from the tribe of Manasseh,

twelve thousand from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand from the tribe of Issachar,

twelve thousand from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand from the tribe of Joseph, and twelve thousand from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed (marked, redeemed, protected).

Those are Israelites
Those who died [asleep] and will be saved
Physical Israelites
You betcha
12,000 souls are saved for each tribe
Bringing a total of 144,000 [12,000 x 12]
If that ain't physical enough that one could count 'em
Then you ain't know what physical is

Don't get distracted with my "pretty pictures"
It makes the discussion more colorful and lively

animated instead of boring static
funny instead of sad
I cannot bear a sad, angry and pathetic discussion
rather a free flow of ideas and extemporaneous exchange is what I offer

So there you go, that's Israelites in the Revelation of Jesus Christ as written by apostle John
and according to apostle Paul
Israelites were many but only a few will be saved

Romans 9:27 Amplified Bible (AMP)
And Isaiah calls out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is only the remnant [a small believing minority] that will be saved [from God’s judgment];

Therefore if people would follow the sons of Israel
Chances are people will not be saved from God's judgement
since the Lord have already sealed that 144,000 Israelites would be saved

For me I find that those animated pics in a discussion are simply a distraction to the truth and it may or may not be your intention but it only comes across as mockery which is not fruitful.

Anyhow back to the content of your post. Romans 9:27 does not say that ISRAEL is physical ISRAEL in the new covenant in relation to Revelation 7. To me all I read out of that scripture is that even if we may claim to be God's ISRAEL or physical ISRAEL it does not mean that we are Gods' ISRAEL, as the scriptures teach elsewhere...

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

links to those who were not chosen here...

Matthew 7:22-26 [22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? [23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. [24], Therefore whoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, which built his house on a rock: [25], And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell not: for it was founded on a rock. [26], And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened to a foolish man, which built his house on the sand: 27, And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it

Both groups heard God's Word only one group did what God said...

In relation to Romans 9:27 it is not talking about Revelation 7. It is talking about how physical ISRAEL are not God's ISRAEL. Let's have a look by adding the chapter context back into the discussion.....

Romans 9:22-30 [22], What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23], And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared to glory, [24], Even us, whom he has called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? [25], As he said also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. [26], And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said to them, You are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. [27], Esaias also cries concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: [28], For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make on the earth. [29], And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like to Gomorrha. [30], What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. [31], But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. [32], Why? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone

Now notice.. who Paul says "the called" (God's people) are...

Even us, whom he has called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? [25], As he said also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. [26], And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said to them, You are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

The called are those of the JEWS and the GENTILES who believe and follow Gods' Word. Now notice why old ISRAEL were not saved...

[27] Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: ......[30], What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. [31], But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. [32], Why? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

This ties in to the scriptures showing who God's true ISRAEL are according to God's new covenant. Now notice the CHAPTER CONTEXT before all of this discussion in Romans 9:22-30...

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Did you hear that brother? Not everyone that says they are ISRAEL are ISRAEL. Just like Matthew 7:22-23 Not everyone that says to me Lord Lord...

[7], Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called.

Did you hear that? Those who are physical ISRAEL do not mean they are God's ISRAEL..

[8], That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

God's ISRAEL are those of the promise or the Word of God. They are those who Believe and follow Gods' Word. Context matters and you left it out.

Hope this helps.

 

[MJFlores]

Anyhow back to the content of your post. Romans 9:27 does not say that ISRAEL is physical ISRAEL in the new covenant in relation to Revelation 7. To me all I read out of that scripture is that even if we may claim to be God's ISRAEL or physical ISRAEL it does not mean that we are Gods' ISRAEL, as the scriptures teach elsewhere...

If apostle John saw a figurative Israel then he couldn't count them
But apostle John saw the revelation of the souls which will be saved that is why he was able to count
those Israelites from each tribe those who are sealed

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

You can use the calculator to really find out if these are true numbers
Punch in 12,000 x 12 and 144,000 will result
Calculable? Yes it was.
Hence physical

 

[3rdAngel]

If apostle John saw a figurative Israel then he couldn't count them
But apostle John saw the revelation of the souls which will be saved that is why he was able to count
those Israelites from each tribe those who are sealed

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

You can use the calculator to really find out if these are true numbers
Punch in 12,000 x 12 and 144,000 will result
Calculable? Yes it was.
Hence physical

Yawwn...Zzzz. Your just repeating yourself again without addressing anything in the posts you are responding to. Let me know when you wish to respond to my posts and questions and talk scripture. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear. Context matters and you do not provide any.

 

[MJFlores]

Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.

 

[3rdAngel]

believe in your dreams

No thanky you. I believe in God's Word and so should you.