God's Omniscience versus Free Will

[camanintx]

Christians regularly claim both that God is omniscient and that humans have the free will to choose their actions. I propose a simple thought experiment to explore these claims.

Suppose that you are going to ask me to choose a number between 1 and 10. Since you are a true Christian and God loves you, he tells you ahead of time that I will choose the number 3 so you write it on a piece of paper to prove to me that God exists.

When we meet and you ask me to pick a number between 1 and 10, I use my free will to choose the number 7. When you produce the piece of paper, what number is written on it?

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Does it have to work this way?

Imagine, for a moment, that reality's outcomes are due to: A. Deterministic factors. B. Chance/chaos, C. Decisions. In each discrete moment there are essentially an infinite number of outcomes, which then determine the conditions for the next set of outcomes. God has already seen all possible possibilities 'before the beginning.' This does not contradict free will.

Ie, compatibilism.

 

[PolyHedral]

Does it have to work this way?

Imagine, for a moment, that reality's outcomes are due to: A. Deterministic factors. B. Chance/chaos, C. Decisions. In each discrete moment there are essentially an infinite number of outcomes, which then determine the conditions for the next set of outcomes. God has already seen all possible possibilities 'before the beginning.' This does not contradict free will.

Ie, compatibilism.

God hasn't just seen all possible outcomes; he's seen which you pick.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Correct. But the one you pick is self-determined - from god's perspective, all possible decisions happen. To you, only one.

 

[Skwim]

Does it have to work this way?

Imagine, for a moment, that reality's outcomes are due to: A. Deterministic factors. B. Chance/chaos, C. Decisions. In each discrete moment there are essentially an infinite number of outcomes, which then determine the conditions for the next set of outcomes. God has already seen all possible possibilities 'before the beginning.' This does not contradict free will.

Ie, compatibilism.

Then you couldn't do other than what god has seen you will do. Way down the line on July 26, 2021 at 8:57 AM god sees you eating a sardine and spinach sandwich. When July 26, 2021 at 8:57 AM rolls around could you do anything other than eat a sardine and spinach sandwich? NO? Then you had no free choice in the matter. Yes? Then god needs glasses. :cover:

 

[Shuddhasattva]

I don't see how passive knowledge of the array of choices possible dictates the choice itself. Why do you care if someone, let alone god, knows what you're going to do?

Let's put it this way. Strategy, such as game theory, is built around anticipating the other players' actions and plans. Say you correctly anticipate an opponent in a complex situation.

Did they have no free will?

 

[camanintx]

I don't see how passive knowledge of the array of choices possible dictates the choice itself. Why do you care if someone, let alone god, knows what you're going to do?

Let's put it this way. Strategy, such as game theory, is built around anticipating the other players' actions and plans. Say you correctly anticipate an opponent in a complex situation.

Did they have no free will?

Guessing what someone will do is not the same as having actual knowledge of what they will do. If information about my choice can exist before I make it, then do I really have the free will necessary to change it?

 

[Willamena]

I don't see how passive knowledge of the array of choices possible dictates the choice itself. Why do you care if someone, let alone god, knows what you're going to do?

Let's put it this way. Strategy, such as game theory, is built around anticipating the other players' actions and plans. Say you correctly anticipate an opponent in a complex situation.

Did they have no free will?

Anticipating is predicting. Knowledge and prediction are different things--knowledge is of things that have verifiably occured.

To say that God "knows" is to say that it is as good as happened.

 

[mycorrhiza]

Omniscience doesn't necessarily imply knowing the future.

Even if it did, then God could be seeing all the possibilities and drawing the conclusions from all the details He would know about you, not afflicting free will. Our actions are affected by our personalities and we might be more prone to pick certain numbers. Or maybe time works diffently, so the event had already happened and God simply went back in time to show the number that you had already picked in the future. Also, I'm pretty sure that this would fall under testing God, which is frowned upon in the Bible .

 

[Skwim]

I don't see how passive knowledge of the array of choices possible dictates the choice itself.

It wasn't a knowledge of the array of possible choices, but knowledge of the fact of the act.

Why do you care if someone, let alone god, knows what you're going to do?

I don't.

Let's put it this way. Strategy, such as game theory, is built around anticipating the other players' actions and plans. Say you correctly anticipate an opponent in a complex situation.

Did they have no free will?

To cut to the chase, no one has freewill. It's an illusion.

 

[Skwim]

Omniscience doesn't necessarily imply knowing the future.

Some say he does. Some say he doesn't. If you believe god's omniscience is limited to just the past and present, fine. Most Christians I've been in contact with don't.

 

[idav]

Christians regularly claim both that God is omniscient and that humans have the free will to choose their actions. I propose a simple thought experiment to explore these claims.

Suppose that you are going to ask me to choose a number between 1 and 10. Since you are a true Christian and God loves you, he tells you ahead of time that I will choose the number 3 so you write it on a piece of paper to prove to me that God exists.

When we meet and you ask me to pick a number between 1 and 10, I use my free will to choose the number 7. When you produce the piece of paper, what number is written on it?

God would know all the possibilities so that if he didn't want something to happen he would intervene. You would end up picking the number god knew you would pick.

 

[Protester]

God would know all the possibilities so that if he didn't want something to happen he would intervene. You would end up picking the number god knew you would pick.

The question of Volition has been argued over by Christians for a long time, and that particular article from what I understand from you message may go along with what you said, as much as you did say. As the International Standards Bible Encyclopedia put it (Yes in public domain:

Scripture brings God's knowledge into connection with His omnipresence. Ps 139 is the clearest expression of this. Omniscience is the omnipresence of cognition (Jer 23:23 ). It is also closely related to God's eternity, for the latter makes Him in His knowledge independent of the limitations of time (Isa 43:8-12). God's creative relation to all that exists is represented as underlying His omniscience (Ps 33:15; 97:9; 139:13; Isa 29:15). His all-comprehensive purpose forms the basis of His knowledge of all events and developments (Isa 41:22-27; Am 3:7).

This, however, does not mean that God's knowledge of things is identical with His creation of them, as has been suggested by Augustine and others. The act of creation, while necessarily connected with the knowledge of that which is to be actual, is not identical with such knowledge or with the purpose on which such knowledge rests, for in God, as well as in man, the intellect and the will are distinct faculties. In the last analysis, God's knowledge of the world has its source in His self-knowledge. The world is a revelation of God. All that is actual or possible in it therefore is a reflection in created form of what exists uncreated in God, and thus the knowledge of the one becomes a reproduction of the knowledge of the other (Ac 17:27; Ro 1:20). The divine knowledge of the world also partakes of the quality of the divine self-knowledge in this respect, that it is never dormant. God does not depend for embracing the multitude and complexity of the existing world on such mental processes as abstraction and generalization.

excerpt from Omniscience. Now I have to admit I will have to read over that second paragraph a couple of times to see if I can understand it, though the last sentence I have no problem agreeing with.:help:

Probably the Reader's Digest of the above would be What does it mean that God is omniscient?

Perhaps not so surprisingly while atheistic scientists don't believe in God, they don't believe in free will either. The most famous or infamous one, however you want to look at it would be, B.F. Skinner:

...remarkable feature of human behavior which Skinner deliberately rejects is that people creatively make their own environments (see Chomsky 1971, Black 1973). The world is as it is, in part, because we make it that way. Skinner protests that “it is in the nature of an experimental analysis of human behavior that it should strip away the functions previously assigned to autonomous man and transfer them one by one to the controlling environment”

excerpt from, Behaviorism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Christians give men the Volition for evil responses.
http://withchrist.org/volition.htm

 

[Me Myself]

Does it have to work this way?

Imagine, for a moment, that reality's outcomes are due to: A. Deterministic factors. B. Chance/chaos, C. Decisions. In each discrete moment there are essentially an infinite number of outcomes, which then determine the conditions for the next set of outcomes. God has already seen all possible possibilities 'before the beginning.' This does not contradict free will.

Ie, compatibilism.

decisions, deterministic factors and "chaos" are merely the ways human cathegorize these things.

"Chaos" is merely the name of that which order you ignore. Decisions are determined factors too, as you are not independient from your enviroment.

 

[idav]

excerpt from Omniscience. Now I have to admit I will have to read over that second paragraph a couple of times to see if I can understand it, though the last sentence I have no problem agreeing with.:help:

That second paragraph is definately hard to follow. I think I can see what it is saying after going over it a few times. It is interesting that they mention Augustine, his philosophy being very close to Calvinistic views. It starts going into the potential of creation, saying that what doesn't exist is something uncreated in god but something that god would be aware as a possibility, which goes along the lines of what I said about god knowing the possibilities.

Giving men the volition without giving them freewill sounds a bit problematic. Though being one with god would be a way to truly have freewill given the scenario that god is the only one with that power.

 

[camanintx]

God would know all the possibilities so that if he didn't want something to happen he would intervene. You would end up picking the number god knew you would pick.

Wouldn't want a little thing like free will to contradict God, now would we?

 

[Skwim]

excerpt from Omniscience. Now I have to admit I will have to read over that second paragraph a couple of times to see if I can understand it, though the last sentence I have no problem agreeing with.:help:

That's because it's pretty much gobbledygook. Sounds kind of profound, but isn't in the least.

Christians give men the Volition for evil responses.

It's a necessity of the religion and why Christians dispute determinism. In order for salvation to be meaningful freewill has to exist.

 

[rusra02]

Christians regularly claim both that God is omniscient and that humans have the free will to choose their actions. I propose a simple thought experiment to explore these claims.

Suppose that you are going to ask me to choose a number between 1 and 10. Since you are a true Christian and God loves you, he tells you ahead of time that I will choose the number 3 so you write it on a piece of paper to prove to me that God exists.

When we meet and you ask me to pick a number between 1 and 10, I use my free will to choose the number 7. When you produce the piece of paper, what number is written on it?

God can know whatever he chooses. He exercises that ability according to his purpose. The Bible reveals God chooses not to know everything that will occur in each person's life. Thus, he almost certainly doesn't care what number you write. Nor does he reveal to anyone what he doesn't care you wrote. God reveals his ability to foretell the future in the Bible. He foretells events relating to his purpose and to mankind's ultimate benefit. He prophesied concerning the rise and fall of world powers, down to our day. One example: He foretold centuries in advance the exact year the Messiah would appear. (Daniel 9:25)

​

​

​

 

[PolyHedral]

The Bible reveals God chooses not to know everything that will occur in each person's life.

How can one choose not to know something? Doesn't that require knowing what one is choosing to not know?

 

[Willamena]

How can one choose not to know something?

Don't tell me: I don't want to know.