God's Omniscience versus Free Will

[PolyHedral]

Relativity says that we will experience time differently depending on our velocity but it cannot reverse a sequence of events and says nothing about us experiencing different nows.

It absolutely does.

 

[camanintx]

Relativity says that we will experience time differently depending on our velocity but it cannot reverse a sequence of events and says nothing about us experiencing different nows.

It absolutely does.

From the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article:

If the two events are causally connected ("event A causes event B"), then the relativity of simultaneity preserves the causal order (i.e. "event A causes event B" in all frames of reference).

If my choice causes the knowledge of my choice to exist, then even under Relativity it cannot exist before I make the choice.

 

[PolyHedral]

From the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article:

If my choice causes the knowledge of my choice to exist, then even under Relativity it cannot exist before I make the choice.

But your choice doesn't cause anything; the future is already there, waiting to be arrived at.

 

[George-ananda]

Christians regularly claim both that God is omniscient and that humans have the free will to choose their actions. I propose a simple thought experiment to explore these claims.

Suppose that you are going to ask me to choose a number between 1 and 10. Since you are a true Christian and God loves you, he tells you ahead of time that I will choose the number 3 so you write it on a piece of paper to prove to me that God exists.

When we meet and you ask me to pick a number between 1 and 10, I use my free will to choose the number 7. When you produce the piece of paper, what number is written on it?

I would expect the number '3' to still be on it.

Here's my take on your topic 'God's Omniscience versus Free Will'.

I call it the George-Ananda relativity theory on free will. It's relative to who the observer is. To us, we have free will. To God, God has free will and we do not.

Consider creation as a great long drama with many physical and spiritual levels going on simultaneously. The author. God, knows the beginning. middle and end of the drama so the individuals players don't have free will from his perspective (they are following their pre-determined script).

But our perspective is more like a person in a movie theatre watching a movie drama for the first time. During the movie we experience tension as to what will happen to the characters even though at another level we also know that the characters fate is already pre-determined on the theater's projection media.

Well, I can agree my theory can use a little better delivery but I think there are some very interesting things to think about.

 

[camanintx]

But your choice doesn't cause anything; the future is already there, waiting to be arrived at.

So we have another argument against the concept of free will.

 

[Willamena]

So we have another argument against the concept of free will.

Yes: determinism.

 

[camanintx]

Yes: determinism.

So how do Christians reconcile this with their theology? After all, if our actions are predetermined how could we choose to sin?

 

[Willamena]

So how do Christians reconcile this with their theology? After all, if our actions are predetermined how could we choose to sin?

I can't answer the former, but the theory of determinism stands in contrast to many theories of free will, and some reconcile the two theories (compatibilism).

 

[Nakosis]

So how do Christians reconcile this with their theology? After all, if our actions are predetermined how could we choose to sin?

Usually when religious folks talk about this it's predestination. Some believe God preordains who goes to heaven from the beginning of time, Calvinism. No one has a choice.

Others believe that God gave man freewill, Arminianism. I think the view is that man gets to chose to become one of the elect. That's purely a free choice. That choice is open to everyone. Once you make that freewill choice then your destiny is predetermined after that point. IOW you make the choice, God provides the means.

 

[TheKnight]

If God ( omniscient ) said you would choose 3, you will choose 3.
You would never pick number 7.

If God said you would choose 3, then it is because you did pick 3 in the future. If you were going to pick 7, then He would have said you pick 7.


Ultimately I think that time and God's perspective of it is not so a much a linear style kind of thing that we progress along, but rather every moment from the present+1 moment to infinity is undetermined. God, then, is able to see all the potential moments that can be actualized, but doesn't necessarily see which moment is actualized until it is, in fact, actualized.

This, so I believe, fits in much more nicely with the Bible as we don't always have God saying that X WILL happen in a deterministic manner but usually the times that the future is revealed to people it is in the form of options. If you do X, then Y. If not, then Z.

This theory also allows for a mix between God determining the path the future takes, and human beings determining that path. It allows for a sort of relationship wherein together both humans and God influence the future. On the one hand God defines which paths are viable options (IE there is no possible future where a unicorn beast exists in the same manner that dogs do). However on the other our will is entirely free as we are free to choose between the options. Free Will isn't an infinity of options, but an absolute freedom to determine which of the options available are chosen.

God's foresight then, is knowledge of all the available options. If God were to tell you which option you choose, it would mean that there is no potential future where you did not choose that option (whether or not that is do to God's doing or your doing is unknown).

In my opinion this view is much more fitting than the view that there is one future and God can see it.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Correct. But the one you pick is self-determined - from god's perspective, all possible decisions happen. To you, only one.

My comment is that God cannot be wrong about what possible decision actually comes to pass, and therefore your free will under his omniscience, does not actually exist.

There is a fervent desire to inject the illusion of possible randomness into this equation, but you cannot.

 

[Skwim]

Ultimately I think that time and God's perspective of it is not so a much a linear style kind of thing that we progress along, but rather every moment from the present+1 moment to infinity is undetermined. God, then, is able to see all the potential moments that can be actualized, but doesn't necessarily see which moment is actualized until it is, in fact, actualized.

So then god doesn't know what will happen in the future. He only knows the past and present.

God's foresight then, is knowledge of all the available options.

But if god can see what options I have 706 days, 14 hours, and 26 minutes from now, why can't he see which one I choose? This seems like a very arbitrary selection of knowledge you've pinned on him: options but not outcomes. He can see who's going to be in the race but he can't see who will win it.

 

[camanintx]

Ultimately I think that time and God's perspective of it is not so a much a linear style kind of thing that we progress along, but rather every moment from the present+1 moment to infinity is undetermined. God, then, is able to see all the potential moments that can be actualized, but doesn't necessarily see which moment is actualized until it is, in fact, actualized.

The problem I see with this view is that our options are determined by our previous choices. Before I can choose a number between 1 and 10, I have to choose to participate in this exercise with you. When you consider the number of choices each of us is presented with each day, the number of potential moments quickly becomes astronomical.

In my opinion this view is much more fitting than the view that there is one future and God can see it.

In my opinion, reality is like an picture on a movie screen, each frame appearing for a brief moment and just as quickly fading into memory. What we think of as time is just an imaginary strip of film that lets us make sense of the images flashing by. While we can imagine holding up this film and viewing all of the frames simultaneously, in reality it is only the image on the screen which truly exists.

 

[TheKnight]

So then god doesn't know what will happen in the future. He only knows the past and present.

But if god can see what options I have 706 days, 14 hours, and 26 minutes from now, why can't he see which one I choose? This seems like a very arbitrary selection of knowledge you've pinned on him: options but not outcomes. He can see who's going to be in the race but he can't see who will win it.

He sets the options, and thus knows all the options from which you have to choose. He also sees all the outcomes of all the options. He knows you'll pick one of the options and can the outcome of that choice, whatever it may be.

The problem I see with this view is that our options are determined by our previous choices. Before I can choose a number between 1 and 10, I have to choose to participate in this exercise with you. When you consider the number of choices each of us is presented with each day, the number of potential moments quickly becomes astronomical.

Our options are both determined by us and by God. Unfortunately, you don't get to choose to play the game. You're playing whether you like it or not. The fact that we don't have unlimited free will does not mean that we do not have absolute freedom in our ability to choose between the options we've been given.

In my opinion, reality is like an picture on a movie screen, each frame appearing for a brief moment and just as quickly fading into memory. What we think of as time is just an imaginary strip of film that lets us make sense of the images flashing by. While we can imagine holding up this film and viewing all of the frames simultaneously, in reality it is only the image on the screen which truly exists.

Such a view is only possible in a scenario where there is no God in my opinion.

 

[Skwim]

he sets the options, and thus knows all the options from which you have to choose. He also sees all the outcomes of all the options. He knows you'll pick one of the options and can ["see"?] the outcome of that choice, whatever it may be.

............. ? If this is correct, it's still a quirky sort of limitation. If he can see the doors I have to choose from why can't he see which one I go through? Someone draw the curtain? go through??

 

[TheKnight]

............. ? If this is correct, it's still a quirky sort of limitation. If he can see the doors I have to choose from why can't he see which one I go through? Someone draw the curtain? go through??

I never said He couldn't. He sees you going through all of them.

 

[Skwim]

I never said He couldn't. He sees you going through all of them.

Sorry, my goof. Let me rephrase.

"If he can see the doors I have to choose from why can't he see which one I WILL go through? Someone draw the curtain?" g​

 

[TheKnight]

Sorry, my goof. Let me rephrase.

"If he can see the doors I have to choose from why can't he see which one I WILL go through? Someone draw the curtain?" g​

Because the future is not place that can be viewed like the present or the past. It is a potential that has yet to be actualized. And until you've actualized it, there's nothing to see.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

That still doesn't make any sense.

 

[TheKnight]

That still doesn't make any sense.

What doesn't make sense about it?