God's opposition to homosexuality. Why?

[Skwim]

To Skwim:

I guess the nonsequitur is only yours for imposing the Bible on me. If it is not authority for you, why do you think it is for me?

non se·qui·tur (n

n s

k

w

-t

r, -t

r

)n.

1. An inference or conclusion that does not follow from the premises or evidence.
2. A statement that does not follow logically from what preceded it.
​

 

[RubyEyes]

non se·qui·tur (n

n s

k

w

-t

r, -t

r

)n.

1. An inference or conclusion that does not follow from the premises or evidence.
2. A statement that does not follow logically from what preceded it.
​

Yes, you thought the verses of the Bible were authoritative for me, but that is not true. So I made no logical fallacy.
It doesn't follow anywhere from my talking about 'God' that it's the one of the OT. That's what I meant for you.

 

[Skwim]

Yes, you thought the verses of the Bible were authoritative for me, but that is not true. So I made no logical fallacy.
It doesn't follow anywhere from my talking about 'God' that it's the one of the OT. That's what I meant for you.

I labeled your "God is not the uncaring tyrant some extremists make Him look like. But sadly hate is another true human weakness" a non-sequitur because I fail to see how

"But sadly hate is another true human weakness."
​

relates to

"God is not the uncaring tyrant some extremists make Him look like."


​

 

[RubyEyes]

"But sadly hate is another true human weakness."
relates to "God is not the uncaring tyrant some extremists make Him look like."

Aah, ok. In my opinion, when people claim God hates they are either very mislead about the nature of God or rather they're expressing their own hate.

It was not a logical argument, it was a closing reflexion for people to think about how hate may corrupt the true contemplation of God, following my line of thought.

Sorry for the confusion. I hope the relation is clearer now.

 

[Skwim]

Aah, ok. In my opinion, when people claim God hates they are either very mislead about the nature of God or rather they're expressing their own hate.

It was not a logical argument, it was a closing reflexion for people to think about how hate may corrupt the true contemplation of God, following my line of thought.

Sorry for the confusion. I hope the relation is clearer now.

No problem. We're good.

 

[averageJOE]

Waitasec, infertility is an unfortunate occurrence that sometimes plague couples who want to have children. In Orthodox Judaism, the only solution is to sincerely ask God everyday to grant them children. Since God knows what's best for us, He may answer yes and He may answer no. Couples, in the context of marriage alone, may have sex even if they are infertile. The concept is that they have to "attempt" to have children. By God's grace (and He's done miracles in the past), they will merit to have children.
Now, regarding lesbians, the Torah does NOT say that two women cannot give each other pleasure. By Jewish tradition, the command to have children is specifically on the man, and not on the woman. Also, men, by Jewish tradition, are forbidden from ejaculating in vain (i.e. not inside a woman). Therefore, masturbation (for a man) is forbidden (if he ejaculates). Women don't have that restriction because they don't provide the sperm. And if someone will ask what the reason is behind all this, I will answer I don't have to know a reason, because I KNOW that everything God says and does is for my (and everyone's) ultimate benefit.

The funny, or scary, thing is is that you actually believe this junk.

 

[waitasec]

The funny, or scary, thing is is that you actually believe this junk.

i know what you mean.

i think it's rather scary.... because this mentality feeds into the mindset that one can actually think they are morally superior and subject people to their biases

 

[Yanni]

I believe it because I was raised this way and because I have actually seen the Hand of God play its role in my life after going through 3 major and 2 minor surgeries. One surgery prevented me from being allowed to play contact sports, which prevented me from ever injuring my neck in a sports accident, which would have killed me because I had a congenital neck condition of extreme instability which didn't display symptoms until I was 16 years old, which led to another thing and another thing and another thing which ALL saved my life! Mere coincidence? I highly doubt it. You know what, when is THE moment that you and I will know whether God really exists? The moment we die. Right? So, let's say I die and I find out that's it; there is no afterlife. So what did I really miss out on? Ok, a few sins here and there. But at least I built a wonderful family, lived a life of purpose and meaning, and enjoyed life. Non such a big deal. But let's say God DOES exist. Someone like you will live a life partying and making money, having sex all the time with anyone you want, and then you die. AND THERE HE IS - THE MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE. What will you do then? "Oh, sorry God, but I just didn't think you existed." What a foxhole you will put yourself in. And not only that, but you will be rebuked for making fun of those who DID believe in God and who DID serve Him properly. So, the funny, or scary, thing is that YOU may not have the last laugh.

 

[Yanni]

And by the way, I posted somewhere else the following. I think you should read it:

This is an interesting point that I want to mention which I'm not sure was ever mentioned on this forum. I am an Orthodox Jew. Most people will say that their religion is the only true religion, and that anyone who doesn't join that religion is destined for eternal hell (or something of that sort). Believe it or not, Orthodox Judaism does NOT believe that. The truth is that EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING has the opportunity to earn a share in the World to Come! Although we do claim to be God's Chosen People (which God in the Torah says at least 21 times that we will ETERNALLY be so), that doesn't mean that if someone doesn't join the Jewish people, he/she will be forgotten by God. We Jews have 613 commandments to keep. 613! Some pertain to men, some pertain to women, some only are required in Israel. We believe that EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING has a requirement to keep 7 commandments, knows as the 7 Noahide Laws in English. I will even list them:

1. Prohibition of Idolatry
2. Prohibition of Murder
3. Prohibition of Theft
4. Prohibition of Sexual immorality
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy
6. Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
7. Establishment of courts of law

Regarding sexual immorality, adultery is unfortunately very common throughout the world. Blasphemy includes not cursing God and not cursing in general.

These laws are basic to establishing a functional society under the kingship of God.

We believe that EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING who keeps these commandments, and is an all around good individual, will have a special place in the World to Come. Judaism is unique for making this claim. NO. You do NOT have to be Jewish to find favor before God. We even shun people from converting because by Jewish law, once one converts, there is no turning back. Being Jewish bears a ton of responsibility. For the already non-Jew, just keeping these 7 commandments would be enough.

My last point is that in the Torah, when describing God's Giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai, the Torah states clearly that God revealed Himself TO THE ENTIRE NATION (by tradition, all 3 million of them)! Now, most religions have based their authenticity based on the claims of ONE or a few individuals. AND EVERYONE BELIEVED THEM!? No other nation ever had such a claim, because you can't go to a whole nation of 3 million people and convince them that God spoke to one person and that his "new" religion is the true religion, and have this "claim" past down as tradition generation after generation. It's just not possible. If God ever wanted to exchange His nation for another (which, as mentioned earlier, He vowed would never happen), then why didn't He reveal Himself to the ENTIRE new nation and tell them that?! Like I said, He never did, because no one can forge such an event. "Hey, 2,000 people standing there. Let's make a claim that God spoke to us and said we're His new nation." Maybe you can fool some people. "Hey, 3 million people standing in front of me. Guess what, God spoke to ALL of you yesterday saying we're His new nation." Most will probably say, "No He didn't. Yesterday, I was fishing with my son," or some other claim. You can convince SOME people, but no one can convince 3 million people, UNLESS IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED! And the Jews pass this tradition down to every generation because that event was the foundation of our nationhood and was the singular most significant event in history: God revealed Himself in this world to an entire nation of men, women, and children at Mount Sinai and gave them an eternal Torah.

I hope this has given some of you an insight into the truth of Judaism, and how heaven and hell does NOT depend on a non-Jew becoming Jewish. For US, it does. But not for YOU.

 

[waitasec]

Waitasec, infertility is an unfortunate occurrence that sometimes plague couples who want to have children. In Orthodox Judaism, the only solution is to sincerely ask God everyday to grant them children.

how would that happen? adoption...?
the same means a SS couple would utilize?

Since God knows what's best for us, He may answer yes and He may answer no.

how many couples make the worst parents? who don't understand the responsibility of parenthood...are their children used as an experiment for their parents to learn the value of parenthood?

Couples, in the context of marriage alone, may have sex even if they are infertile. The concept is that they have to "attempt" to have children. By God's grace (and He's done miracles in the past), they will merit to have children.

are you including in vitro fertilization a miracle, what about surrogates?

Now, regarding lesbians, the Torah does NOT say that two women cannot give each other pleasure. By Jewish tradition, the command to have children is specifically on the man, and not on the woman. Also, men, by Jewish tradition, are forbidden from ejaculating in vain (i.e. not inside a woman). Therefore, masturbation (for a man) is forbidden (if he ejaculates). Women don't have that restriction because they don't provide the sperm. And if someone will ask what the reason is behind all this, I will answer I don't have to know a reason, because I KNOW that everything God says and does is for my (and everyone's) ultimate benefit.

the funny thing is this 'seed' you are talking about gets older and less potent as time goes on and the male body replenishes it's seed...so masturbation is good...if you want to ensure off spring from the male perspective.
so no, you are wrong...or at least the jewish tradition is as far as that is concerned

 

[Yanni]

Parents who cannot have children can adopt children. By Jewish law, they become their children and they have fulfilled their obligation to have children.

 

[Yanni]

Waitasec, I want you to read this excerpt from Mark Twain, and tell me if Judaism is a hoax.

If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one per cent. of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star-dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of; but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvellous fight in this world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished.
The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?

The SECRET, my friend, is that God promised that we would be His eternal nation, and God NEVER lies, and that the only rational reason for our continued existence is because there is a God Who rules this universe and protects us.

 

[Agnostic75]

The reason why God in the Torah forbids gay activity is simple.

But prime minister Netanyahu of Israel does not dislike homosexuals, and Israel has allowed openly homosexual people to join the military for many years.

First of all, nowhere in the Torah does it say that a person cannot be attracted to the same sex. To non-homosexuals, this attraction seems completely unnatural.

Please define "unnatural."

God created the world with most species having male and female counterparts.

If a God exists, you have not provided reasonable evidence that he is the God of the Bible.

The reason for that is because God wants the world to be populated.

But due to the small percentage of homosexuals in the world, they have not prevented serious overpopulated from occurring in many places in the world today.

Did God want animals to reproduce? If so, why did he cause almost all bonobo monkeys to be bi-sexual?

It is not likely that Jews are God's chosen people. For example, during the first part of the second century, the Roman emperor Trajan put down a Jewish rebellion in Palestine and killed 500,000 Jews. In addition, Hitler killed millions of Jews. King Nebuchadnezzar also persecuted Jews.

And of course, reasonable people know that the Exodus and the Ten Plagues in Egypt are myths, that a global flood did not occur, and that if a God exists, he has used evolution, which means that the story of Adam and Eve is probably.

Reasonable people also know that the partition of Palestine in 1948 was not a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. That is because the Old Testament says that God gave the Hebrews "all" of the land of Palestine as an "everlasting convenant." The partition of Palestine in 1948 did not even come close to satisfying either of those promises.

Whatever successes that Jews have had cannot reasonably be attributed to a God.

Are you suggesting that homosexuals should abstain from having sex for life just because some people believe the Bible opposes homosexuality?

Why don't Hebrews kill people anymore for working on the Sabbath Day, for cursing at their parents, and for practicing the freedom of religion by worshipping other Gods? When did God tell Hebrews to stop doing those things?

 

[Agnostic75]

I believe it because I was raised this way.......

But Muslims or Hindus could make the same argument, so that is not a good argument.

.......and because I have actually seen the Hand of God play its role in my life after going through 3 major and 2 minor surgeries.

But unusual healings happen to people of all worldviews. In addition, which people generally recovered from Hurricane Katrina the best? Obviously, wealthy people, not the followers of any particular religious group.

What does God have against amputees? Why isn't there a single credible case in history of an amputee instantly getting a new arm or leg?

 

[waitasec]

Waitasec, I want you to read this excerpt from Mark Twain, and tell me if Judaism is a hoax.

If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one per cent. of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star-dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of; but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvellous fight in this world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished.
The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?

The SECRET, my friend, is that God promised that we would be His eternal nation, and God NEVER lies, and that the only rational reason for our continued existence is because there is a God Who rules this universe and protects us.

what are you talking about?
this has nothing to do with this thread....

so now where were we....oh yeah.... wasted seed and bad heterosexual parents

 

[Yanni]

Agnostic, obviously no one can prove that God exists. We'll just have to wait and see. And yes, many Jews throughout history have been persecuted and murdered. God never promised us that there would never be ANY tragedies in our history. But He DID promise that we would never be utterly destroyed. So far, the world hasn't learned its lesson. The Jewish people are indestructible. Every attempt to eradicate us from the Earth has been met with the destruction of that people instead. Most recently, the Nazis rose up against us with their might, but they now have vanished into the dust. We, on the other hand, are still here. And we will NEVER disappear from this Earth, no matter how much people hate us.
And regarding your comment about Netanyahu and Israel embracing homosexuals, modern day Israel is not run by a Torah government, which in today's world is probably a good thing, because most people in the world wouldn't be acclimated to having such a government established in the world. But Israel today does not represent God. So let's leave Israel out of this.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

You know what, when is THE moment that you and I will know whether God really exists? The moment we die. Right? So, let's say I die and I find out that's it; there is no afterlife. So what did I really miss out on? Ok, a few sins here and there. But at least I built a wonderful family, lived a life of purpose and meaning, and enjoyed life. Non such a big deal. But let's say God DOES exist. Someone like you will live a life partying and making money, having sex all the time with anyone you want, and then you die. AND THERE HE IS - THE MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE. What will you do then? "Oh, sorry God, but I just didn't think you existed." What a foxhole you will put yourself in.

Hi, Yanni. But what if you or I die and find out that God is the God of Islam -- or maybe the God of some other religion Who is angry at us for rejecting Him? What will we do then?

But no need to worry. I'm pretty sure that the One True God doesn't hold grudges. No one is going to hell. No one is going to suffer for picking the wrong God or for going through life without any God at all.

 

[javajo]

I think its probably more like "man's opposition to homosexuality", not God's. Perhaps many have read more of their own biased thoughts into their interpretations of certain passages.

 

[Skwim]

I think its probably more like "man's opposition to homosexuality", not God's. Perhaps many have read more of their own biased thoughts into their interpretations of certain passages.

Then I suggest that you take a look at the passages. The principle ones are listed in the OP.

 

[Yanni]

Hi, Yanni. But what if you or I die and find out that God is the God of Islam -- or maybe the God of some other religion Who is angry at us for rejecting Him? What will we do then?

But no need to worry. I'm pretty sure that the One True God doesn't hold grudges. No one is going to hell. No one is going to suffer for picking the wrong God or for going through life without any God at all.

I told someone in another post that God judges people with perfect fairness. And I also mentioned that Orthodox Judaism believes that you DO NOT have to be a member of the Jewish people to have a share in the World to Come. EVERY HUMAN BEING has an opportunity to earn eternal reward by following the 7 Noahide Laws (which according to our tradition, every human being is obligated to follow) and being a good person. For those who never knew about the 7 Noahide laws, God will not automatically send them to hell for not following them. He will probably look at other deeds done and not done throughout such a person's life. The unique thing about Judaism is that we don't say that you HAVE to be a member of our faith to earn a special place in the Afterlife. Most religions say that "God will reject you for rejecting His religion" or something like that. Name me one other religion that says "oh, ok. So you're not a member of my religion. That's ok, because God will accept you anyway." It's a fact of history that some religions (I will not mention them by name) murdered innocent men, women, and children throughout history just for not converting to THEIR religion. We, Jews, have always been the victim. We have to follow 613 commandments. 613! All God asks of the non-Jews is to keep a simple 7, and they are:

1. Prohibition of Idolatry
2. Prohibition of Murder
3. Prohibition of Theft
4. Prohibition of Sexual immorality
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy
6. Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
7. Establishment of courts of law

I also posted somewhere else that when the Holy Temple stood on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, the Jews would bring sacrifices on our holiday of Succos for EVERY NATION in the world, and we would pray for the well being of those nations. We says that if the Babylonians and the Romans would have known how much they were benefiting from the Temple, they never would have destroyed it.
So yes, you could say "maybe the real God is the God of this religion and He will be angry with those who didn't accept this religion, or that religion. The Jewish idea is that the Torah is a truth for ALL humanity, Jew and non-Jew alike.