God's opposition to homosexuality. Why?

[Skwim]

Are you speaking about someone who abstains from sexual activity, because they have homosexual inclinations, but they think that is wrong? Or are you speaking more generally, for instance, including those who abstain from sex because of a religious discipline, or those who just think that having sex would create too many entanglements and interfere with their lifestyle, so they just avoid it?

I'm talking about those who love each other but, for whatever reason, don't engage in sexual activity.

In my view God created love as the strongest force, because he wanted to relate to us through love, rather primarily just through obedience to commandments (master/servant). Sexual love is not the only dimension of love created by God, but it does have extraordinary power to shape our hearts and characters, according to the way it is expressed. If any and all expressions of sexual love that we can see in our world were created by God, we might expect that all would bring him joy equally. I guess an important question is then, is there a force of evil in the world? If so, how does it operate to influence and control people? Because love is the strongest force, and is so engrained into the very structure of human nature, IMO it is primarily through the power of misdirected love that evil can control our minds and hearts. It creates a sphere of love in opposition to God's sphere of love. This kind of view is not so popular nowadays, but it's what I believe the reality is. As we live in a world in which we face a bewildering number of choices about love, and in which inside of ourselves, even in one day, there might be quite a number of different thoughts and feelings pulling us in varied directions, all related to love in some way, if we don't know and feel God's purpose for creating us in our lives, it's easy to end up going in the wrong direction.

So why is homosexual behavior grounded in love a misdirected love? And why should it receive such brutal condemnation? I would think god would be delighted that two people found so much love between them that they were moved to physically express it, even if it is between two people of the same sex. Why should such love be restricted to those of opposite sex? But this is getting off topic, and I'd rather stick to the point of the OP, god's opposition to homosexual behavior.

I don't think abstention from sex in the long term, as a way of life, for whatever the reason, is God's ideal. Nevertheless, even though the dimension of sexual love is missing from one's life, it is still possible to build a bond of love with God in the dimension of parent and child. Bluntly speaking, I think abstention is better than immorality. It is not the best way, but it could open up a way for God's love and power to begin a recreation process inside of ourselves.

Sticking to physical expression, which seems to be the deal breaker for god, I don't see him condemning abstention, at least nowhere to the degree he does homosexual behavior.

 

[waitasec]

I don't see him condemning abstention, at least nowhere to the degree he does homosexual behavior.

doesn't god condemn, even if one has a homosexual thought...
thought crime, what lovely concept...:sarcastic

 

[Skwim]

doesn't god condemn, even if one has a homosexual thought...
thought crime, what lovely concept...:sarcastic

From what I've read (and my understanding may be wrong) and from what others have said, No. It seems the scriptures only addresses physical homosexual behavior, not thoughts or emotions. In fact, this distinction is often brought up in discussions of the relevant passages.

 

[RomCat]

You know the answer to your own question.

 

[waitasec]

From what I've read (and my understanding may be wrong) and from what others have said, No. It seems the scriptures only addresses physical homosexual behavior, not thoughts or emotions. In fact, this distinction is often brought up in discussions of the relevant passages.

i see, so how do you understand this passage;
matthew 5:
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

if we were to take this passage as literal then
it's ok to have homosexual lusts...and to blind ourselves to prevent heterosexual lusts

but of course that isn't what i think this passage is saying...
sin also occurs in the heart.

 

[idav]

I'm talking about those who love each other but, for whatever reason, don't engage in sexual activity.

So why is homosexual behavior grounded in love a misdirected love? And why should it receive such brutal condemnation? I would think god would be delighted that two people found so much love between them that they were moved to physically express it, even if it is between two people of the same sex. Why should such love be restricted to those of opposite sex? But this is getting off topic, and I'd rather stick to the point of the OP, god's opposition to homosexual behavior.

Sticking to physical expression, which seems to be the deal breaker for god, I don't see him condemning abstention, at least nowhere to the degree he does homosexual behavior.

There is a list of condemned "love" if you want to call it in the OT. The list makes same sex just as bad as human to other animal or sex with a sibling. Jesus mainly focused on aspects of adultery and aspects of lustful thoughts but he always just seemed to assume a man woman type relationship.

 

[Skwim]

i see, so how do you understand this passage;
matthew 5:
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

It isn't how I understand them that's important, but how some of those who follow the teachings of the Bible interpret them. As I said in the opening statement of my OP, the interpreted regard god has for homosexuality is that of religious conservatives. And from what I can tell the passage here doesn't make any difference to their understanding.

 

[Skwim]

There is a list of condemned "love" if you want to call it in the OT. The list makes same sex just as bad as human to other animal or sex with a sibling.

Does the list speak only to emotional love or physically expressed love? How about presenting it.

 

[idav]

Does the list speak only to emotional love or physically expressed love? How about presenting it.

It only talks of physical relation. Though it is the same book that condemns eating shrimp so I like to just use some common sense when reading what it advises.

Leviticus 18:
6 “‘No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.
7 “‘Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.
8 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father.
9 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.
10 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonor you.
11 “‘Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister.
12 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister; she is your father’s close relative.
13 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister, because she is your mother’s close relative.
14 “‘Do not dishonor your father’s brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.
15 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her.
16 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonor your brother.
17 “‘Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.
18 “‘Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.
19 “‘Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.
20 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her.
21 “‘Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.
22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.
23 “‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
24 “‘Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled.

 

[idav]

The NT is where it gets more into motives.

Matthew 5:28
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

 

[Skwim]

It only talks of physical relation. Though it is the same book that condemns eating shrimp so I like to just use some common sense when reading what it advises.

Thanks.

 

[CaptainBritain]

The NT is where it gets more into motives.

Matthew 5:28
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Thats most the male species doomed then, never knew I commited adultery more times a day than I smoke no wonder im so tired!

 

[idav]

Thats most the male species doomed then, never knew I commited adultery more times a day than I smoke no wonder im so tired!

Yeah I'm not sure marrying everyone thats hot is feasible. Also these days it is very hard to tell who is married and chances are the hot chicks are taken.

 

[CaptainBritain]

Yeah I'm not sure marrying everyone thats hot is feasible. Also these days it is very hard to tell who is married and chances are the hot chicks are taken.

Thats what facebook is for, so you can keep an eye on status changes:yes:

 

[James Humphreys]

So why is homosexual behavior grounded in love a misdirected love? And why should it receive such brutal condemnation? I would think god would be delighted that two people found so much love between them that they were moved to physically express it, even if it is between two people of the same sex. Why should such love be restricted to those of opposite sex? But this is getting off topic, and I'd rather stick to the point of the OP, god's opposition to homosexual behavior.(quote from Skwim)

I can't prove it of course, but my feeling is that the beginning point of homosexual activity was with fallen angels. Jude 1:6-8 suggests that angels sinned against God by engaging in immmoral acts as the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah did, which clearly includes homosexuality. In my view, when someone acts upon homosexual desires the spiritual energy for that love derives from the fallen angelic realm; and as thos,e angels are acting in opposition to God and God's sphere of love, it cannot help but work against God's purpose and cause him pain.

I'd be interested to know, although you may not include homosexual behavior among them, are there other expressions of sexual love that you personally feel bring pain to God and represent misdirected love?

 

[idav]

I'd be interested to know, although you may not include homosexual behavior among them, are there other expressions of sexual love that you personally feel bring pain to God and represent misdirected love?

Tossing someones salad. It makes baby jesus cry!

 

[Skwim]

So why is homosexual behavior grounded in love a misdirected love? And why should it receive such brutal condemnation? I would think god would be delighted that two people found so much love between them that they were moved to physically express it, even if it is between two people of the same sex. Why should such love be restricted to those of opposite sex? But this is getting off topic, and I'd rather stick to the point of the OP, god's opposition to homosexual behavior.(quote from Skwim)

I can't prove it of course, but my feeling is that the beginning point of homosexual activity was with fallen angels. Jude 1:6-8 suggests that angels sinned against God by engaging in immmoral acts as the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah did, which clearly includes homosexuality. In my view, when someone acts upon homosexual desires the spiritual energy for that love derives from the fallen angelic realm; and as thos,e angels are acting in opposition to God and God's sphere of love, it cannot help but work against God's purpose and cause him pain.

I'd be interested to know, although you may not include homosexual behavior among them, are there other expressions of sexual love that you personally feel bring pain to God and represent misdirected love?

Jude 1:6-8
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

​

Well, for one thing, it only suggests this is what the angels engaged in: "similar way" not "same way." And it still doesn't answer the question of why god detests homosexual behavior.

 

[James Humphreys]

Jude 1:6-8
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

​

Well, for one thing, it only suggests this is what the angels engaged in: "similar way" not "same way." And it still doesn't answer the question of why god detests homosexual behavior.

Well, I thought I gave it a good try. In reality, it is not just homosexuality, but also adultery and any form of sexual immorality that undermine God's ideal of love, in my view. All people seek after God in their hearts, but are pulled away from God by unseen forces that work on multiplying our self-centered love. To me, Satan is real and controls a sphere of love that is in direct opposition to God's ideal of love. As long as that sphere of fallen love exists God's ideal can never be realized, and there is no way God can pleased by that. A large part of that control is through misdirected sexual love. Adultery is tempting in that it draws off the natural God created attraction between masculine and feminine, which is meant to engender enduring mature conjugal love, leading to familial love in all its dimensions. But homosexuality has no point of reference in God. That's one reason why I think it is modeled after and bound to the love between fallen angels, who appear to be largely masculine in nature. If you'd like I could go into this a little more.

 

[Skwim]

Well, I thought I gave it a good try. In reality, it is not just homosexuality, but also adultery and any form of sexual immorality that undermine God's ideal of love, in my view.

Where is this "ideal of love" spelled out?

All people seek after God in their hearts, but are pulled away from God by unseen forces that work on multiplying our self-centered love.

Sounds nice and all, but without evidence it's empty Sunday school rhetoric.

But homosexuality has no point of reference in God.

Sure it does. It can be just as deep an expression of love as heterosexual expression. Why can't god be pleased with two people of the same sex loving another? After all, it isn't like they choose to fall in love with one another any more than heterosexuals do. It's like banning left handed people from heaven. Or should we just accept the fact that god is an irrational being?

 

[waitasec]

It's like banning left handed people from heaven. Or should we just accept the fact that god is an irrational being?

:yes: