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God's Plan

lockyfan

Active Member
You lost me there.
That is simply because you do not have a full understanding of the scripture.

Plus it is also in proverbs it warns us also of adding to scripture.

All scripture is beneficial as says 2 tim 3:16

1 cor 13:8-9
Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with.

So no more prophesies, no more being able to speak in tongues. In other words the biuble is telling us that certain things will stop, which includes things like "An angel" coming down from heaven to reveal the word of God to one religion and then they barely even spread it.

2 cor 11:12-15
Now what I am doing I will still do, that I may cut off the pretext from those who are wanting a pretext for being found equal to us in the office of which they boast. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works.


So knowing that the bible speaks of things stopping like prophesying and that satan turns into an angel of light (as that was what he once was) I believe that anything not in the scriptures, but added to it by a different religion or even removed and such, that it may not be actually from God

Because as Revelation 12:9 says
So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.
 

Civil Shephard

Active Member
Ok, I'm sure you've all had this question posed before so I'd like to keep it quick and simple.
My understanding is that Christians believe that everything that is and has been is all part of God's plan. Correct?
It seems that this must also mean that Satan is/was part of God's plan, especially considering that God is omniscient. Yes?

Now I also know some beliefs such as eternal hell and suffering, the idea that the Devil controls most of the earth and its inhabitants etc.

How does this fit into God's plan? How to do perceive it? I struggle to think of a God that purposefully creates a force of evil knowing that it will corrupt the hearts of most men who will then be condemned to eternal damnation.

As a Christian, how do you perceive this or understand it? I am sure that my understanding is incomplete.

I suppose if we were sitting somewhere we could talk about this I'd need to share with you these portions of scripture...

Matthew 13 (New International Version, ©2010)
The Parable of the Weeds

24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

For me this parable and the explanation touch on what I think is a core of this issue.

The Parable of the Weeds Explained

36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”

37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

I don't know that Jesus ever explains why God created Satan. Through reading the Gospels and the Major Prophets a few places stand out that give me some feeling of knowing why evil is part of "Gods Plan". Personally I think that eons of trial and error in dreams of a physical universe in our Creator I AMs awareness of being that our universe was the plan chosen so that spontaneous being might be achieved in a Heaven to come that is as much for God as for us. A place where Omni will exist within those of us chosen to have direct spontaneous fellowship with our common creator I AM.

Further I think a reading of Isaiah 45 lends some understanding on the reason evil is present. I highlight this passage...
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

8Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

I AM the Lord and there is no other is pivotal I think in my understanding so that I stopped fearing other gods or lords to the point where it was evident to me there is but one source of true justice and mercy. The one creator and one universe where there is one of me to relate to our creator I AM gives me pause and acceptance that all pains are temporary... but it's not good to be the willing cause of those pain...
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
That is simply because you do not have a full understanding of the scripture.
Please don't insult me. You have no idea how well I understand or do not understand the scriptures. I think it's more that you didn't explain yourself very well.

Plus it is also in proverbs it warns us also of adding to scripture.
Hmmm. Well, in that case, our Bibles should stop with proverbs. But it is interesting to consider the fact that the Jews of Jesus' day were of pretty much the same opinion as you. They deny the truthfulness of the New Testament because they were so certain that it wasn't of God, and that men had added to what they considered to be "scripture."

All scripture is beneficial as says 2 tim 3:16
I would certainly agree with you there. Everything God has ever said is worth knowing. It's very difficult for me to understand why anyone would insist that God is through talking to us when He said He is the same yesterday, today and forever. What was important to Him anciently is still important to Him today. He would never have just left us with one book, written in one part of the world, wished us well, and left us to figure things out on our own.

So no more prophesies, no more being able to speak in tongues. In other words the biuble is telling us that certain things will stop, which includes things like "An angel" coming down from heaven to reveal the word of God to one religion and then they barely even spread it.
For a period of time, that certainly was the case. The Church Jesus Christ established fell into apostasy when the last of the Apostles died, and the authority He gave them ceased to exist anywhere on earth. I believe that His Church has been re-established today.
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST ONE OF FIVE

Madhuri explains and asks in post #1 :
My understanding is that Christians believe that everything that is and has been is all part of God's plan. Correct? It seems that this must also mean that Satan is/was part of God's plan, especially considering that God is omniscient. Yes?

Now I also know some beliefs such as eternal hell and suffering, the idea that the Devil controls most of the earth and its inhabitants etc. How does this fit into God's plan? How to do perceive it? I struggle to think of a God that purposefully creates a force of evil knowing that it will corrupt the hearts of most men who will then be condemned to eternal damnation.


As a Christian, how do you perceive this or understand it? I am sure that my understanding is incomplete.
Madhuri : I am somewhat amazed, that of all the non-Christians, you are able to ask the important and profound questions that should engage us. Frubals to you for you ability to see what the important principles are, and avoid the petty.


Important themes and principles underlying God’s plan for men includes :

1) Conditions which originally underlie and affected God’s plan of creation and mortality
2) The reason God originated a specific plan involving mortality for man
3) The nature of God’s plan and it’s expected outcome.


Considerations underlying God’s plan should include the following principles :


1) Chaotic Matter pre-existed the material creation and it was organized into useable objects (stars, planets, plants and animals, etc)


2) Spirits or “intelligences”; less intelligent than God, existed as well and were to be “fashioned” or civilized into more useful beings.

3) Sufficiently organized Intelligent spirits had the capability of choice and progression.

4) God did not force moral choice upon spirits

5) Certain types of knowledge were more important for spirits to learn initially than other types of knowledge

6) Moral and social laws were the most important initial principles for spirits to learn

7) God originated a plan to educate these spirits in moral law and gives them experience in both good and evil

8) Mortal existence is part of that plan to educate and give experience to those spirits. This life exists to provide moral education and experience primarily (but these are NOT the only principles the spirits are ultimately to learn).

9) Spirits who choose to live higher moral laws, over evil are rewarded and progress according to those choices.

10) Spirits who choose to refuse to live moral laws, and choose evil, are not rewarded the same as those who chose to live moral law.




1) THE RELATIONSHIP OF GOD THE FATHER TO SPIRITS

God, possessing characteristics of Love and Intelligence has always existed and his creation is affected by these his characteristics. In ancient Judao-Christion doctrine, spirits of men existed in some form and this principle underlies any consideration as to what God is doing with the spirits of men and why he is doing it.

“At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. ....” (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)
Thus it was known from the beginning that not all souls would choose to live moral laws.

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2) ISSUES UNDERLYING THE ABILITY OF INTELLIGENT SPIRITS TO CHANGE


Though these spirits were primitive, they were capable of progress and intelligent existence. The prophet Baruch taught :
“For the nature of men is always changeable. For as we were once, we are no longer, and as we are now, we shall not remain in the future. For if an end of all things had not been prepared, their beginning would have been senseless”. 2 Baruch 21:16-17
The Old Testament era Prophet Baruch taught that these spirits were not stagnant, but were capable of undergoing changes (both morally good changes AND / OR morally bad changes as they progressed in intelligence, knowledge, and power).

Consider that God could either intervene and involve himself in the development of primitive but intelligent spirits by teaching them, or God could choose not to intervene with these intelligent spirits and allow them to develop without his teaching them any moral laws or any other truths.

If God did not teach primitive spirits to live higher moral principles, then he has less control over how they will develop morally . They may spontaneously develop into civilized beings or may become Savage and primitive as they progressed. If God teaches them moral principles, then they have a better chance of learning and living by moral principles upon which they may live together in harmony before they learn to destroy each other.

What would a loving and intelligent God to do with such cognizant and weaker, yet intelligent spirits who are capable of progress?

Because he is charitable and full of Love and truth, he intervenes for the benefit of the spirits of mankind.

In this early theology, God is not bent on organizing things and spirits simply out of sheer boredom, but existence is more loving and more peaceable and more pleasant and more efficient and more productive for all beings if matter is organized into usable forms and spirits are fashioned into civil and loving beings.

Phillip describes this principle :
“There are domestic animals like the bull and the [donkey] and others of this kind. Others are wild and live apart in the deserts. Man ploughs the field by means of the domestic animals, and from this he feeds both himself and the animals, whether tame or wild. Compare the perfect man. It is through powers which are submissive that he ploughs, preparing for everything to come into being. For it is because of this that the whole place stands, whether the good or the evil, the right and the left. (The gospel of Phillip)
In the same manner, it is “domesticated” and “civilized” beings (and not savage, primitive, and uncivilized beings) which create harmony and act for the benefit of all other beings. IF spirits are EVER to attain to a "heaven" where there is Joy and Unity and eternal harmony, then the inhabitants of such a place must learn and master the social and moral principles which create and support such an existence.

Because of his love and intelligence, God saw proper to institute laws whereby spirits “could have a privilege to advance”. The ancient Jews taught that God had instituted a divine plan to accomplish his purposes. This concept is interwoven into concepts that are stated repeatedly, such as "Before all things came to be, he [God] has ordered all their designs" (Dead Sea Scrolls 4Q255-264)
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3) THE PLAN OF GOD TO TEACH INTELLIGENT SPIRITS BASIC SOCIAL / MORAL LAW

“....I (the Father), in the midst of the light (glory), moved around in the invisible things, like one of them, as the sun moves around from east to west and from west to east. But the sun has rest; yet I did not find rest, because everything was not yet created. And I thought up the idea of establishing a foundation, to create a visible creation." (2nd Enoch 24:4)
Early enochian literature clarifies that God the Father took great care in both administrating this plan and in ensuring the involvement of all these heavenly spirits (for whose benefit his plan exists).

The Prophet Enoch describes heaven with it’s "fountain of righteousness,...surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom. All the thirsty ones drink (of the water) and become filled with wisdom. (Then) their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones.” Who among these spirits would not have wanted to drink from that same wisdom and take their place with others who were holy, righteous and elect?

POST TWO OF FIVE FOLLOWS
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST TWO OF FIVE


Though ALL spirits existed in the beginning, they were in no way equals (just as we are not equal now). Among them were the more intelligent and gifted; those who were more full of grace and truth than others. In this context Pre-New Testament era Ignatius explains that among those spirits was "Jesus...who before the ages was with the father.. (Ignatius :6:1).

The ancient records show the Father and Jesus, from early on, possessed a great similarity and unity. Jesus was given greater authority and administrated much of the Father’s plan from early on (God’s "right hand" was one of the Pre-Creation Jesus’ appellations).

Diogenes reaffirms this relationship relative to the education of the spirits of mankind :
"And when he revealed it (his plan) through his beloved Child and made known the things prepared from the beginning, he gave us to share in his benefits and to see and understand things which none of ever would have expected.. So then, having already planned everything in his mind together with his child [jesus]... (Diog 301:8-11)

Long before Christian Diogenes bore his New Testament Era testimony, Old Testament Era Enoch had bore the SAME visionary testimony : In Enoch’s vision, the Prophet Enoch saw the pre-creation Jesus with the Father and asks who this individual (Jesus) is and describes Jesus’ role in the Father's Plan to educate spirits in moral laws
"At that place, I saw the Beginning of days [i.e. the Father] And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one – from among the angels –who was going with me,..."Who is this and from where could he be, and for what reason does he go with him who precedes time?" And he answered me and said to me, "This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells...the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of the spirits in eternal uprightness...." (1 Enoch 46:1-4)

The need for a redeemer was known from the very beginning, thus it was said of Jesus, that he was a lamb “slain from the foundation of the world”. The prophet Enoch described the announcement of a redeemer to ensure those spirits of men who chose to live moral laws, could return to live in a heaven inhabited by others who chose to live higher moral laws :
... "At that hour, that the Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of the spirits, the Before-Time; even before the creation of the sun and moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. He will becomes a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall. He is the light of the gentiles...All those who dwell upon the earth shall fall and worship before him; they shall glorify; bless and sing the name of the Lord of the Spirits. For this purpose he became the Chosen One; And he has revealed the wisdom of the Lord of the Spirits to the righteous and the holy ones...in the name of the Lord of the Spirits; and because they will be saved in his name and it is his good pleasure that they may have life." (1 Enoch 48:1-7)

Ancient pre-creation council histories demonstrates that most intelligent spirits were joyous at being given this opportunity to progress. For example the question God places to Job was not merely a rhetorical instruction, but a reminder of Jobs personal pre-creation theology.
...."Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? [...] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7)
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4) PHYSICAL CREATION WAS ACCOMPLISHED TO ALLOW MEN TO ADVANCE IN NECESSARY KNOWLEDGE

The Jewish Geninza 4Q texts are clear that the plan is the Father’s plan and that he “determined all your works before you created them, together with the host of your spirits and the assembly of your holy ones… - all your designs for the end of time..” He counselED with those whose involvement he wants, but it is his plan.

Though multiple creation accounts exist, the earlier accounts make it clear that the physical creation of the stars; the earth; and of other planets in ancient accounts was accomplished by taking “lessor” or more chaotic matter, and organizing it into a “higher” or more organized and purposeful form as an organized planet earth. Old Testament Enoch describes this process: “And I called out a second time into the very lowest things, and I said, ‘Let one of the (in)visible things come out visibly, solid.’..” (2nd Enoch 26:1).
“And thus I made solid the heavenly circles (orbs). ...And from the rocks I assembled the dry land; and I called the dry land Earth. “ (2nd Enoch 28:1-2)
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n early Judao-Christian Theology, God the Father, in company with the Pre-Mortal spirit of Jesus (called "the word” or “the right hand” in some accounts), accomplished creation.

“I said, “O Lord, you spoke at the beginning of creation, and said on the first day, ‘Let heaven and earth be made, ‘ and your word accomplished the work...Again, on the second day, you created the spirit of the firmament and commanded him to divide and separate the waters...On the third day you commanded the waters to be gather together...For your word went forth, and at once the work was done. “ (4th Enoch 3:38-42).

Madhuri; You also started a thread regarding the different beliefs concerning the trinity and why many christians do not believe The Father and the Son and The Holy Spirit are one being. I think it is this closely unified and joint administration between God the Father and his Son that contributes to much of the later confusion between Father and Son in later doctrines though in such early texts it is clearly taught that they are two individuals that are profoundly unified in PURPOSE.

This organization of spirits and matter was accomplished for the very purpose of allowing men to advance in knowledge: The Jewish teaching that the physical creation was accomplished for the purpose of advancing mankind is the same tradition as the early Christians held. New Testament Hermas taught :
“...don’t you understand how great and mighty and marvelous God’s glory is, because he created the world for the sake of man, and subjected all his creation to man..” (Her 47:2-4)
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5) SPIRITS, AT SOME LEVEL OF COGNIZANCE AND INTELLIGENCE, POSSESSED FREE WILL. ALL WERE TO BE TAUGHT MORAL LAW AND CHOOSE IF THEY WOULD OBEY MORAL LAWS, AND WHAT LEVEL OF MORAL LAWS THEY WOULD OBEY:

Part of God’s plan involves a great "sieving" or “sorting” of mankind based on the level of moral law they freely chose to live.
In such ancient accounts, the spirits of men were allowed to choose to take part in this plan, just as they are allowed to choose what they will do in this life.

For the moment, I’ll skip the “war in heaven” and the controversy with Lucifer that was a central part of it and simply mention that there were recalcitrant spirits of which the Jews said : “God had not chosen them from ancient eternity. Before they were created (in the body), he knew what they would do. “ (Geninza A+B 4Q266). Still, even these less valiant spirits were to be taught moral laws just like all others. It was said of the less valiant : “...he taught them through those anointed by the Holy Spirit…”

There were important principles underlying this fairness.

For example, though God knows their nature, they needed to discover their own nature. God explained to the Prophet Enoch :
“And I gave him [man] his free will; and I pointed out to him the two ways – light and darkness. And I said to him, ‘This is good for you, but that is bad’; ...so that it might become plain who among his race loves me. Whereas I have come to know his nature, he does not know his own nature.”... (2 enoch 30:15-16)
Even those who are to remain unrewarded, are to understand why they remained unrewarded.
“It is true that man would not have understood my judgment if he had not received the Law and if he were not instructed with understanding. But now, because he trespassed, having understanding, he will be punished because he has understanding." (2 baruch 15:5-6)
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POST THREE OF FIVE FOLLOWS
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST THREE OF FIVE


6) BECAUSE OF HIS FAMILIARITY WITH SPECIFIC SPIRITS OF MEN AND THEIR PERSONAL CHARACTERISTICS, GOD CHOSE SOME TO PLAY IMPORTANT ROLES IN HIS PLAN

This principle the ancients taught that “before he created them He knew their thoughts…” (geninza) is not just true of the wicked spirits, but God also knew the characteristics of the good and valiant spirits. Because of this knowledge, God was able to plan for them to assume specific roles in mortality. Thus God told Jeremiah the prophet : "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)


God’s planning extended not merely to such great roles as prophets, but in teaching his son’s the nature of the souls agreement to come to earth, Enoch taught his sons regarding the : “...covenant of God, while they are even in their mother’s womb....that even before any person was in his mother’s womb, individually a place I prepared for each soul, as well as a set of scales and a measurement......” As if to make sure his sons understand the import of this doctrine, Enoch repeats the same doctrine again in just a few lines:
“For I am swearing to you, my children, that before any person existed, a place of judgment was prepared for him and the scale and the weight by means of which a person will be tested were prepared there ahead of time. " (2 enoch 49:1-3)
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7) THE SCHOOL OF MORTALITY

The Jewish Zohar relates the creation of the souls in heaven after that they become fully cognizant and take on characteristics they will keep with them when they are placed into bodies at birththe soul of the female and the soul of the male, are hence preeminent above all the heavenly hosts and camps
(even to the point of having gender). Speaking of these fully developed souls the text says : “.” This sacred text continues :
“...It may be wondered, if they [the souls] are thus preeminent on both sides, why do they descend to this world only to be taken thence at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day. [...]Speaking of those left behind who mourn it was taught “Withal, the village people weep for the departure of the king’s son from among them. But one wise man said to them: ‘Why do you weep? Was this not the king’s son, whose true place is in his father’s palace and not with you?...’ “If the righteous were only aware of this, they would be filled with joy when their time comes to leave this world. For does it not honor them greatly that the matron comes down on their account, to take them into the King’s palace, where the King may every day rejoice in them?....And so, happy are the righteous and in the world to come, ... (THE ZOHAR - A SEAL UPON YOUR HEART)

Thus, the ancient doctrine places mankind in the position of Students, who are to learn the moral principles God is trying to teach them. This was integral to early Christian teachings.
For example : 2nd Clement taught : “we are being trained by the present life” (2 clement 20:2)

New testament era Ignatius is correct to say to the Ephesians, “I speak to you as my fellow students. For I need to be trained by you in faith, instruction, endurance, and patience. (Ig-eph 3:1

The Apostle Peter’s protégé Clement taught that “through him [Christ] the Master [the Father] has willed that we should taste immortal knowledge”. New Testament Era Diogenes makes clear that without this “immortal knowledge”, there IS no basis for eternal life in a heavenly existence. Thus he taught the early Christians :

“But the tree of knowledge does not kill, on the contrary, disobedience kills. For it is not without significance that the scriptures record that God in the beginning planted a tree of knowledge and a tree of life in the midst of Paradise, thereby revealing that (eternal) life is through knowledge...For there is neither life without knowledge, nor sound knowledge without true life; therefore each tree stands planted near the other. (Diog 12:2-3)
It is significant in the context of learning, that in early accounts, Eden’s tree of “knowledge”, is called the tree of “wisdom”. In Enoch’s vision of heaven he says :
“... And the tree of wisdom, of which one eats and knows great wisdom, (was among them)....This very thing is the tree of wisdom from which your old father and aged mother, they who are your precursors, ate and came to know wisdom; and (consequently) their eyes were opened...” (1Enoch 32:6)
Importantly, the type of wisdom that is gained, includes the type of moral knowledge man was sent here to learn (“there is no [eternal] life without knowledge”).
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8) SPECIFIC TYPES OF KNOWLEDGE ARE REQUISITE TO SAVE US AND PREPARE US TO LIVE IN A PEACEFUL AND HARMONIOUS HEAVEN


Not all TYPES of knowledge have equal value in learning principles that will bring us joy and harmony in the eternities. The ORDER in which we learn principles is important as well.

For example, learning moral laws which underlie and support social harmony are more important than knowledge of how to wage successful war against another. Learning how to hurt another person, before learning patience to control that knowledge will still not result in joy and harmony, but may result in sadness and disharmony.

A very clear verse from the Hebrew Zohar tells us that : "All men before they lived on earth were present in heaven in the identical form they possess in this life, and everything they learn on earth they knew already before they came to this world.". If they “knew already” what they came here to learn, then this life must represent a DIFFERENT sort of exposure to similar moral data; a “clinical” and “experiential” exposure to moral principles of good and evil; a time to learn to USE the moral principles we had already been “taught”.

When Christian Clement taught that “through him [Jesus] the Master has willed that we should taste immortal knowledge”, he was speaking primarily of moral principles that support a more exalted and glorified existence (i.e. moral and social rules of living in joy and harmony in heaven). The inhabitants of heaven must learn and master the characteristics that achieve and sustain a social heaven having unity and joy and harmony for an eternity if such a place is to exist forever. The inhabitants of heaven must master certain characteristics such as charity, patience and long-suffering, love and unity. This was one of the underlying reasons for mortality.

For example: They ancient were taught to learn UNITY


“Focus on unity, for there is nothing better” (Polycarp 1:2). “...let there be one prayer, one petition, one mind, one hope, with love and blameless joy...let all of you run together as to one temple of God, as to one altar, to one Jesus Christ...” (Ignatius to the Magnesians 7:2)

When congregations achieved unity, Ignatius honors them :
“I congratulate you who are united with him, as the church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the father, that all things might be harmonious in unity. (Ign to eph 5:1)
This was NOT taught simply to the Christians, but to the Jews as well. For example, in the Dead Sea Scroll “CHARTER OF A JEWISH SECTARIAN ASSOCIATION” (1QS, 4Q, 5Q), the translators decided not to use the word “community” throughout the translation to describe this group, but rather they used one of the society’s most common self-designations: “YAHAD”, which means “unity”. It was after all, the moral ideal they sought to achieve and the word they used to describe themselves and their higher aspirations.

POST FOUR OF FIVE FOLLOWS
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST FOUR OF FIVE

This is no different than the christian teaching “ Let there be nothing among you which is capable of dividing you, but be united ....with those who lead..” (Ign to Mag 6:2). The principle of UNITY and HARMONY were principles that ALL disciples were taught just as the angels had learned to do this : “ the archangels who are over the angels...harmonize all existence, heavenly and earthly...” (2nd Enoch 19:3).

If spirits could NOT learn to overcome their undisciplined impulses, there could BE no harmony in heaven, or on earth.

This was the pattern Jesus and the Apostles set. Just as Jesus was obedient to HIS Father, the church was to be obedient to their authorities
. “Be subject to the Bishop and to one another, as Jesus Christ in the flesh was to the Father, and as the apostles were to Christ and to the Father, that there might be unity, both physical and spiritual". (Ign to Mag 13:2).

“Unity” and “oneness” is taught in all the sacred texts. When a man “leaves his parents” he is to become “one” (unified) with his wife (Gen 2:24) to the point that Jesus says that the “man and his wife are no longer “twain” but are “one” flesh (matt 19:6). Jesus requests of his Father regarding his disciples that he had “given them the glory that you [the Lord God] gave me, that they may be one as we are one, I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. “(NIV jn 17:23).

The same unity of which Jesus has with his Father, the disciples were also to achieve (and all the rest of us as far as we are able to emulate Jesus and the disciples). For example: Jesus prays in Jn 17:20-21, “ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me ”.

Remove unity from heaven, and it cannot BE “unified” and “harmonious”. All who live there MUST live this principle

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9) THERE MUST BE A SEPARATION, A SCREENING AND SORTING OF SPIRITS BASED ON MORAL DESIRES AND ACTIONS

We’ve already touched on the point that self-willed intelligences may progress in whatever moral direction they desire, whether toward good or toward evil. However, a “heaven” cannot be peopled with individuals who are self-centered; who are disingenuous; who are mean-spirited and who willingly harm others for their own gain, etc. Allowing malevolent spirits into a “heaven” would be disastrous to the harmony and happiness of such a social order. There must be a sieving, a separation made between those wanting to live moral laws and those that do not.

It is clear to the ancient Christians that a loving and patient God knows we will make mistakes in his process of "creating righteousness". Diogenes explains to the ancient Christians :
"So then, having already planned everything in his mind together with his Child, he permitted us during the former time to be carried away by undisciplined impulses as we desired, led astray by pleasures and lusts, not at all because he took delight in our sins, but because he was patient " (Diog 9:1)
It is clear that God allows men to make mistakes, not because he approved of such behaviors, but because he never loses sight of his ultimate Goal of creation.

Diogenes continues :
"...because he was creating the present season of righteousness, in order that we who in the former time were convicted by our own deeds as unworthy of (eternal) life... having clearly demonstrated our inability to enter the kingdom of God on our own, might be enabled to do so by God’s power. (Diog 9:1)
Thus God is both creating moral improvement by this process and at the same time demonstrating our inabilities and the necessity of reliance on him for what we are unable to do.

The Jews also taught that God allows evil for the same reason, (i.e. because it serves God's ultimate purposes). The Jews taught :
" Until now the spirits of truth and perversity have contended within the human heart. All people walk in both wisdom and foolishness. As is a persons endowment of truth and righteousness, so shall he hate perversity; conversely, in proportion to bequest in the lot of evil, one will act wickedly and abominate truth. God has appointed these spirits as equals until the time of decree and renewal. He foreknows the outworking of their deeds for all the ages [of eternity]. He has granted them dominion over humanity, so imparting knowledge of good and evil deciding the fate of every living being by the measure of which spirit predominates in him until the day of the appointed visitation. (1QS, 4Q, 5Q "Jewish Charter")

Though God allows evil to exist, it serves HIS purpose in HIS plan and he controls and appoints it’s limits. It is not "chess set theology" where God plays man and then punishes him for "bad moves", but rather, man is allowed his own choice and man appoints his own desires regarding evil.


Christian restorationists will understand the ancient understanding that temporary evil IS a part of the plan as well as the temporary difficulties that result from it. The restoration of such knowledge does not change evil. But it explains it and it’s relationship to current difficulties. This is important when individuals ask the inevitable questions : "Why me?", or "How long oh Lord?". In this case, context IS critical to understanding.

For example : Almost all complaints the philosophers make about suffering remove suffering from it’s proper context by only considering existence as a small time period while ignoring the eternities both before and after the event itself. Outside of it’s proper eternal context, suffering cannot be justified. In proper context, it can be justified in the same way we justify the suffering of immunizing children to prevent an even greater suffering in the future. Suffering a specific immunization may INCREASE later joy over not suffering a specific immunization.

This life is like "Enoch’s Bridge" that all must pass over. "Just as a bridge is laid across a river and everyone crosses over it, so a bridge is laid from the beginning of the entrance to it’s end, and the ministering angels go over it... (3rd enoch 22:1)" It is the same answer given to an impatient Prophet Ezra’s question : "If the world had indeed been created for us, why do we not possess our world as an inheritance? "

The answer God gives Ezra is simply another description of Enoch’s bridge. God explains :
"There is a city built and set on a plain, and it is full of all good things; but the entrance to it is narrow and set in a precipitous place...and there is only one path... If now that city is given to a man for an inheritance, how will the heir receive his inheritance unless he passes through the danger set before him? ..."And so the entrances of this world were made narrow and sorrowful and toilsome; the are few and evil, full of dangers...But the entrances of the greater world are broad and save, and really yield the fruit of immortality. Therefore unless the living pass through the difficult and vain experiences, they can never receive those things that have been reserved for them..." (4th Ezra 7:3-25)

POST FIVE OF FIVE FOLLOWS
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST FIVE OF FIVE


9) TESTING, GRADING, AND SORTING

"Does the Lord demand bread or lamps or sheep or oxen or any kind of sacrifices at all? That is nothing, but he [God] demands pure hearts, and by means of all those things he tests people’s hearts. (2 en 172: 45;3)

Enoch, compares the judgment to a marketplace, where proper scales ensure justice so that "...on the day of the great judgment every weight and every measure and every set of scales will be just as they are in the market. That is to say, each will be weighed in the balance, and each will stand in the market, and each will find out his own measure and in accordance with that measurement each shall receive his own reward. (2 Enoch 44:5) Thus the ancients taught a gradient of judgment according to a scale.

Much of later christianity abandoned this doctrine and adopted a "light switch", EITHER/OR model of EITHER a wonderful heaven, OR a punishment of a torturous hell. Abandoning the early christian doctrine also resulted in an abandonment of the fairness of early christian judgment. Restoration of ancient doctrine, restores fairness and justice to god’s Judgment; reward and punishment.

From the beginning, the Judao-Christian texts describe a plan to place the spirits of men into bodies; to then give them knowledge and allow them to experience mortality with it’s various choices and let them exercise their own choice and preferences and then return them to that level of holiness they themselves choose. Since the resurrection is physical, the spirits are judged with their bodies (and not separately) as it says in the early Christian Adam and Eve text "So, the Holy One, blessed be he, brings the spirit and placing it into the body, he also judges them as one."


The early christians taught that there were varying levels of heaven to which varying levels of men would be assigned based on the moral choices men made.
"... those who have been deemed worthy of an abode in heaven go there, while others will enjoy the delight of Paradise, and still others will possess the brightness of the city; for in every place the Savior will be seen, to the degree that those who see him are worthy. They say, moreover, that this is the distinction between the dwelling of those who bring forth an hundred fold, and those who bring forth sixty fold, and those who bring forth thirty fold : the first will be taken up into the heavens, and second will dwell in Paradise, and the third will inhabit the city. For this reason, therefore, our Lord has said, "In my Father’s house there are many rooms"; for all things are of God, who gives to all their appropriate dwelling...The elders, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the order and arrangement of those who are being saved, and that they advance by such steps, and ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father, the Son finally yielding his work to the Father, as it is also said by the apostle: "For he must reign until he puts all enemies under his feet" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 36:1-2)

Thus, the ancients taught that during the process of judgment, men will be resurrected and glorified according to "their own measure" (i.e. in a just and fair manner) and of those who’ve repented and have sincerely accepted the Atonement are made glorious and given a position of holiness and importance : For example, the jews taught that the righteous spirits and their "...bodies, covered with worms of the dead, might rise up from the dust to an eternal council; from a perverse spirit to your understanding. That he might take his position before you with the eternal hosts and spirits of truth to be renewed with all that shall be and to rejoice together .... (Geninza A+B 4Q)

The ancient Christian teaching that men are to be "imitators" of God, reaches it’s culmination in the advancement of mankind who have become more like God in the judgement and resurrection. For example: The jews of Qumran were very descriptive regarding those who are resurrected and glorified and who have fulfilled God’s plan for man’s destiny :

"For He has established utter holiness among the eternally holy, that they might become for Him priests of the inner sanctum in His royal temple, ministers of the Presence in His glorious innermost chamber. In the congregation of all the wise godlike beings, and in the councils of all the divine spirits, .... that sage congregation honored by God, those who draw near to knowledge….priests who draw near, ministers of the Presence of the utterly holy King…His glory. Precept by precept they shall grow strong, to be seven eternal councils; for He established them for Himself to be the most holy of those who minister in the Holy of Holies…They shall become mighty thereby in accordance with the council…the Holy of Holies, priests of …these are the princes …who take their stand in the temples of the king…(4Q, 11Q, Masada fragment 367)

Multiple similar Judao-Christian descriptions exist, describing the ultimate destiny of spirits who chose to gain moral wisdom, among other types of knowledge they are gradually given, (precept upon precept) over the eons they will exist. If they continue in their quest to “imitate God” in their characteristics, they will ultimately become more like him so that the early Judao-Christian description USES the words “like God” or “God like” in describing these individuals who have learned to be full of grace and charity and truth.

"Praise the most high God, you who are exalted among all the wise divine beings. Let those who are holy among the godlike sanctify the glorious King, He who sanctifies by His holiness each of His holy ones. You princes of praise among all the godlike, praise the God of majestic praise. Surely the glory of His kingdom resides in praiseworthy splendor; therein are held the praises of all the godlike…Lift his exaltation on high, you godlike among the exalted divine beings-His glorious divinity above all the highest heavens. Surely He is the utterly divine over all the exalted princes, King of kings over all the eternal councils. (Masada 4Q, 11Q)


Madhuri; I think the other LDS could have explained these things much better than I without going into such a historical journey, however, the earliest Judao-Christian theories and their various texts are my interest and thus that is the journey I felt to take in explaining the early version of God’s plan and what he is doing with man and why evil must exist. If you are interested in the actual fall of Lucifer, I do have early textual information though I won’t much of modern christian theory since that is not my interest).

I wish you the best of luck Madhuri, in coming to your own understanding of what God is doing with man and the role of evil in furthering God’s purposes.

Clear
eiviaceill
 
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Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Ok, I'm sure you've all had this question posed before so I'd like to keep it quick and simple.
My understanding is that Christians believe that everything that is and has been is all part of God's plan. Correct?
It seems that this must also mean that Satan is/was part of God's plan, especially considering that God is omniscient. Yes?

Now I also know some beliefs such as eternal hell and suffering, the idea that the Devil controls most of the earth and its inhabitants etc.

How does this fit into God's plan? How to do perceive it? I struggle to think of a God that purposefully creates a force of evil knowing that it will corrupt the hearts of most men who will then be condemned to eternal damnation.

As a Christian, how do you perceive this or understand it? I am sure that my understanding is incomplete.

First, God allows (say, using earth as a platform) freewill to be fully execised, good or bad.

Second, God's omnipotence allows Him to choose either to know or not to know. Or else His "knowing" is uncontrollable and then He's not omnipotent. However, God is omnipotent.

As a result, God knows when He likes and chooses to know. And since He's not limited to time, He can choose to know at anytime of time-line to access whatever He likes to know. So you don't need to assume God knows what you do at all at this moment as He might well choose not to know you at the moment. When those wicked are in a separation from God, God chooses to ignore them or not to know them at all, as He CAN!

As you can see, how God knows can be independent of what you are doing. He might choose to know your choice and He might choose not to know, as He CAN!

If you are willing to pay attention to what the Bible says, God keeps saying that He's alerted about Israel, and He also said that "depart from me, I don't know you". It seems that He chooses to keep an eye on His sheep only. As for others, He might or might not pay attention to. Still, His sheep or not, everyone's freewill keeps going.
 
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Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
God plans! God is not like a man to plan. God operates or creates without the need to plan. That's what He is: The Creator. And He has never ceased creating. That's why the universe still expands. Once Einstein was asked if he believed in God. He answered and said that all his life was to try to catch God at His work of creation. Then, he went out to deliver a lecture about the expansion of the universe. Since it has been proved that the universe does expand but Science is still to prove how, it could be God at His work of creation.
 

lockyfan

Active Member
God plans! God is not like a man to plan. God operates or creates without the need to plan. That's what He is: The Creator. And He has never ceased creating. That's why the universe still expands. Once Einstein was asked if he believed in God. He answered and said that all his life was to try to catch God at His work of creation. Then, he went out to deliver a lecture about the expansion of the universe. Since it has been proved that the universe does expand but Science is still to prove how, it could be God at His work of creation.

It could also be the fact that we regenerate ourselves (until a certain age and then start to gradually die) and the the earth replenishes itself, it would stand to reacon that God created the universe to do the same and thus he would be a being to have some fort or Order or "plan"though I dont agree to calling it a plan. Its more a way around the whole issue of the human condition of sin. Which he never wanted us to do in the first place.
 

Intrigued

Member
Ok, I'm sure you've all had this question posed before so I'd like to keep it quick and simple.
My understanding is that Christians believe that everything that is and has been is all part of God's plan. Correct?
It seems that this must also mean that Satan is/was part of God's plan, especially considering that God is omniscient. Yes?

Now I also know some beliefs such as eternal hell and suffering, the idea that the Devil controls most of the earth and its inhabitants etc.

How does this fit into God's plan? How to do perceive it? I struggle to think of a God that purposefully creates a force of evil knowing that it will corrupt the hearts of most men who will then be condemned to eternal damnation.

As a Christian, how do you perceive this or understand it? I am sure that my understanding is incomplete.

Lets face it this question poses a problem.
 
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Thesavorofpan

Is not going to save you.
Ok, I'm sure you've all had this question posed before so I'd like to keep it quick and simple.
My understanding is that Christians believe that everything that is and has been is all part of God's plan. Correct?
It seems that this must also mean that Satan is/was part of God's plan, especially considering that God is omniscient. Yes?

Now I also know some beliefs such as eternal hell and suffering, the idea that the Devil controls most of the earth and its inhabitants etc.

How does this fit into God's plan? How to do perceive it? I struggle to think of a God that purposefully creates a force of evil knowing that it will corrupt the hearts of most men who will then be condemned to eternal damnation.

As a Christian, how do you perceive this or understand it? I am sure that my understanding is incomplete.


God created Lucifer to be his scapegoat. For man wouldn't be bitter towards God for all the pain and suffering in the world.

God created man to be naturally evil. It was to prove to him that we could be better then the norm and not commit acts of evil.
 
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