God's Random Dice: Order or Disorder or...

[shunyadragon]

The question is based on a false premise that allows for two results. The false premise is nature plays fair. It most certainly does not. Nothing fair about nature. In a two headed coin toss random. Has no place but in a two headed coin toss the only thing predictive is nature wins thus determinism predictibility is false. Both are a projection of a tiny region of the brain called the higher functioning onto nature is all.

Huh?!?!?!?!!?

 

[osgart]

Total uncertainty in cause and effect is complete randomness. The cause and effect happens, but never with any certainty. Its chaos in that way of it.

Randomness can be orderly if it is bounded by laws that contain it and restrict it. Then patterns should emerge, and reoccuring patterns become possible. Such as a pool table.

Randomness that obeys laws vs. Randomness that is lawless.

 

[David T]

Huh?!?!?!?!!?

How many notes are there in say the low E Of a standard tuned guitar?

 

[sayak83]

That is what I was thinking of for randomness in the context of being bounded by order...the hands can be statistically predicted. It may also qualify in terms of the context of playing a card game as random but we understand that the shuffling of the deck is an ordered process. The reason that the cards and hands are seen as the result of randomness comes from the inaccessibility (intentional and intrinsic) of the information needed to predict the order of the cards.

So the randomness is within boundaries of order in two contexts.

True or perfect randomness exists in the Quantum realm and can be used to create truly random number generators. This has become a hot field due to encryption technology needs.
NIST’s New Quantum Method Generates Really Random Numbers

 

[Native]

What is the nature of "random"? Is there such a thing? Does perfect randomness exist or is it always bounded by a measurable order? Is randomness always the result of ordered events that are simply not ordered with respect to some measurement of order? Is perfect randomness itself an order of precisely controlled order-avoiding behavior?

These questions impact how we think about how nature and/or God creates form out of...something else, a void. Is the void also like randomness a non-thing? An abstraction of our intellect rather than a detectable feature of our Universe? Is the void simply that realm of being which we, as beings rooted in this Universe, cannot perceive? Does modern physics show us some of the peripheral aspects of the Universe which have their ground both within and without the Universe itself?

Matter, gas and light, of which god (and his wife) creates everything, are unevenly distributed in the visible Universe and this gives a certain local randomness of creation in itself.

The term, "void", derives from the ancient description of the creation in the ancient world picture which "just" deals with our Milky Way and NOT with the entire Universe. The void describe the pre-galactic surroundings from where "rivers of gas and dust" flows into the center of this creation and it is in this center the first solid matter is created via the central light in the galaxy.

This mytho-cosmological explanation is more or less similar in all ancient cultural stories of creation - and it is more natural, simple and logical than modern explanations of the formation and creation.

 

[`mud]

And......I've had enough of this piece of ....!

 

[shunyadragon]

How many notes are there in say the low E Of a standard tuned guitar?

Huuuuuugh???!?!?!?

 

[shunyadragon]

And......I've had enough of this piece of ....!

Failure to make a coherent response noted.

Your the Gooney bird that made the pass in the night and dropping the smelly load.

 

[shunyadragon]

Total uncertainty in cause and effect is complete randomness. The cause and effect happens, but never with any certainty. Its chaos in that way of it.

I disagree the unpredictability of the individual events in the Quantum world does not translate to total uncertainty nor complete randomness, because there is a predictability of the patterns of events that demonstrate a underlying cause.

Randomness can be orderly if it is bounded by laws that contain it and restrict it. Then patterns should emerge, and reoccuring patterns become possible. Such as a pool table.

Randomness that obeys laws vs. Randomness that is lawless.

This is in contradiction to the definition of randomness, and overstating the role of randomness, since the randomness observed is only in the unpredictability of the individual events, and not the processes themselves from the perspective of the human observer,

Also the observed randomness is not causal factor.

 

[sealchan]

Correct.



I do not agree with this, because I believe the different infinities are used in different situations in physics and cosmology. I know actual infinities are used in modeling certain aspects of Black Holes. I will check more into this and respond.

To add:

I might add that there is at least on view that infinities are not necessary in physics. In this view infinities can be substituted regular numbers and non-infinite sets: Infinity is Not Real. It is often the case that values of infinities cancel out before the final equation is reached, but not always.

I believe that most physicists use various forms of infinities in physics and cosmology as described here: Beyond number - the role of infinity in understanding the universe

I didn't see anything in the article that indicated that infinities were within excepted equations describing the universe...only that infinities are a concept that helps us understand the possibilities. My understanding is that infinity tends to get in the way when equations are solved unless they cancel out. One exception is in calculus but there infinity is harnessed implicitly.

 

[David T]

Huuuuuugh???!?!?!?

Infinite... Just in 25.25" of one string. So random has nothing to do with much except the listener or the observer.

 

[shunyadragon]

I didn't see anything in the article that indicated that infinities were within excepted equations describing the universe...only that infinities are a concept that helps us understand the possibilities. My understanding is that infinity tends to get in the way when equations are solved unless they cancel out. One exception is in calculus but there infinity is harnessed implicitly.

Infinities cancel out in many equations, but not all, not because they are in the way, but simply the nature of the math involved.

Yes infinities are a way to to understand the possibilities of the nature of the cosmos both on the smallest and largest scale.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Of course not I am drivi g down a road with random aggregate it gives magical rise to connecting my origination and desti. Action. I can measure test and repeat over and over again random determines predictibility of outcome. Never mind a it art from an clueless artless fantasy view, random predictive makes total sense.

So we aren't actually talking about nature here just intellectualizing fantasy. Not mentally healthy actually!

Mental health did cross my mind when reading your post.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Total uncertainty in cause and effect is complete randomness.

I don't know if that is completely true. One could observe that mass is not randomly distributed in our solar system without needing to know about gravity as a cause. I would suspect that there are many instances where the observation of a non-random distribution led scientists to start looking for a cause.

 

[osgart]

I don't know if that is completely true. One could observe that mass is not randomly distributed in our solar system without needing to know about gravity as a cause. I would suspect that there are many instances where the observation of a non-random distribution led scientists to start looking for a cause.

Its my best attempt at it, as i understand it. Perhaps there are exceptions to everything. No doubt that what appears random or not may be completely, or slightly the opposite.

I wouldnt assume it on appearances.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Its my best attempt at it, as i understand it. Perhaps there are exceptions to everything. No doubt that what appears random or not may be completely, or slightly the opposite.

I wouldnt assume it on appearances.

Doing our best is the best we can do! I am sure there are flaws in most of my posts as well, so don't sweat it.

I have had to deal with statistics in the past, so when I read your post my previous experiences it lit up the neurons in my brain that are tied to statistics. One of the things you look for in statistics is a normal distribution which is just another way of saying a random distribution. If the data doesn't fit a normal distribution then it tells you that you may be missing something. It is kind of the opposite of what you were saying where ignorance of causes results in randomness.

 

[sealchan]

I keep thinking of the physics of gas...we have the statistical motion of individual gas molecules on "one level" and the fact that the gas (in whatever container it finds itself in whether that be a canister or a planetary atmosphere) has a temperature and pressure at "another level". Temperature and pressure are not properties of the gas molecules but the gas (always in some sort of container) as a whole does. The molecules motion are so lost in a complex dance that prediction of the motion of individual molecules is virtually impossible, maybe even, for quantum reasons, impossible on principle. But the whole collection of gas molecules' temperature and pressure will follow along easily measured and predicted courses that simple algebraic equations can model.

So here there is an important concept of a system, a whole, which is a localized (contained) group of parts in mutual interaction such that properties of the whole cannot be explained by virtue of the properties of its parts. Furthermore the randomness of the parts gives way to order in the whole. This appears to me to be yet another way in which randomness is intrinsically tied into predictability, order into disorder. It doesn't make rational sense, but it does drive the intuition that many support of the idea of the whole being more than the sum of its parts in many, many systems.

So what is this interesting inter-relationship between what is predictable and what is predictably un-predictable?

 

[sealchan]

So taking in all of these considerations, how are we to understand the Universe as an order that arose out of a disorder?

Is there any scenario in which disorder does not yield order when...

• That disorder is bounded?
• That disorder is the result of a non-linear, iterative ordered system driven to chaotic behavior?

What steps does/did God need to take in order to bring order out of chaos? In one scenario, the chaos already contained the order! Was the creation of space-time enough to bring about order due to its function as a "container"?

 

[David T]

Mental health did cross my mind when reading your post.

Its all random anyway. Right?

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Its all random anyway. Right?

Your posts appear to be random. They usually consist of whatever is on your mind at that second, regardless of the topic.